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Gees last won the day on November 22 2019

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  1. Moontanman; Well, I don't read it for religious purposes. Mostly I use it as a reference or research tool when something that I am studying relates to it, or to ancient ideas. I am not sure if the Bible is relative anyway. It was not referenced in the original thread's OP that this thread split from, but it was in John Bauer's OP. So I guess it's relevance depends on what mood Swansont is in. Was there something in the Bible that you specifically wanted to address? I am not a Biblical scholar either, but I have done some studying on this subject. I think that one of the things most "Christians" don't realize is that there is the Bible, then there are the interpretations that dictate Church doctrine, then there is what the guy in the pulpit says. These can be very different things open to vastly different interpretations. Then to complicate things more, we have the New Testament that is almost 2,000 years old, and the Old Testament, which is older yet. So all this time caused the Books in the Bible to go through massive interpretations when cultures and societies adopted them, along with differences in language and understandings about the metaphysical that changed through time. One really does have to be a scholar to study and understand it. In my early teens, I started reading the Bible because I was also concerned about contradictions. What I eventually learned was that a lot of what I was taught was not actually in the Bible, there was also a lot in the Bible that I was not taught. This is where church doctrine comes in, because churches teach church doctrine -- not the Bible -- or they teach specific passages and ignore others. I think it was St. Augustine, a prolific writer, who established most of the early Christian doctrine -- around 500 AD. It is my opinion that his writings helped usher us into the Dark Ages. I don't remember a lot of his work, but know that a lot of it still permeates Christianity today, and I think he wrote about souls, heaven, and hell. If I remember correctly, he despised Aristotle's work and had nothing good to say for what we now call Science. His policies and doctrines stood unchallenged for about 700 years. Then A (forgot the name and will have to look it up) came along, rewrote a lot of church doctrine opening minds and eventually welcoming in the Enlightenment and Renaissance. I know that he worked on the concept of souls and worked out what differentiated us from animals, but I don't know if he referenced Adam or Jesus. I would have to look it up. Did you read my thread, "Understanding the 'God' Concept"? There is a ton of evidence that "God" is real, but no evidence that He exists. The "God" concept is an archetype, so consult Jung's work if you want to understand it. Good. I ate my bowl also as is evidenced by my still posting in this thread, where I am so welcome. Yes. Just like we now say that consciousness is no longer in the body, or the body is no longer producing consciousness -- whatever. The simple truth is that this idea has been studied for thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of years with many different interpretations, and we know little more now than we did then. Science thinks it has the answers; it doesn't. Philosophy has a ton of theories/hypotheses, but no comprehensive theory of consciousness. Religion calls consciousness "God" and calls mind, soul, so what? It is just semantics. The "soul", the mind, the self, and the "I" are all the same thing, and I think that most of the people reading this post know that. I am too damned old to be wasting my time arguing about semantics. No evidence for mind exists either. There is evidence for thought, but not for mind -- does that mean we don't have minds? Dennett tackled this subject in his book, Consciousness Explained. He ended up explaining that subjectivity was in doubt. Do you have any idea of what kind of nightmare it would be if people accepted his nonsense? Other philosophers dubbed his book, Consciousness Denied, or Consciousness Explained Away. Dennett is generally an intelligent man, but he really blew that one. When did "God" put the soul in humans? That is an easy one. Interpret "God" as consciousness and ask the question again. When did humans become conscious? When they developed the rational aspect of mind -- the same thing that Science calls consciousness. What is the metaphor about Adam, Eve, and the Garden about? The rational aspect of mind -- consciousness. Do you want me to explain it? Gee Sorry, we cross posted.
  2. Swansont; Your response is irrelevant. I was not talking about the "quality" of Vexen's post, I was talking about the perspective. It is obvious that Vexen has not studied theology; it is just as obvious that John Bauer has, which is why I used the term "theology". I read the original thread. This is the question that started the "original" thread: "I was wondering when was the soul imparted into humans during the course of evolution?" John Bauer answered that question. Then he went on to make it clear that this was not a challenge to Science. John Bauer's discussion had everything to do with that. You just didn't know what he was talking about. Since you obviously did not know what John Bauer was talking about, how could you possibly know it was off-topic? You were being disingenuous. No. The denial was in a challenge to Science and evolution. Requests to define "soul" were very much a part of the original thread, so you are talking nonsense. You are the one who was defining, or redefining terms, as you interpreted "evolution" to be biological evolution. Isn't that your agenda? John was talking about metaphysical evolution -- evolution of the mind. Why would he do that? How about because mind, soul, consciousness, and "God", whatever you want to call them, are all metaphysical subjects. Hence my comment that no one knew what John was talking about. So you are saying that if someone came into the Physics forum and stated that General Relativity was nonsense and Einstein was wrong, you would be OK with that? You would not take over the thread, or throw that member out of the forum? Pull the other one Swanson. So you are saying that since he was talking about the metaphysical (on-topic in this forum), his posts were split, but still retained your interpretation of evolution. I think your bias is showing. Since we have already established that you do not study consciousness and often do not even recognize it, I don't see your point. Number 4) is very much within the context of both threads. 4) Philosophy and Psychology study the evolution of consciousness and mind. Also consider that I remember your response in a thread I started in the Philosophy section where I referenced Biblical text. You called it, I believe the word was, an "abomination". So your bias in this matter is well established and this is all sound and fury, signifying nothing. Are you aware that the word litigate is synonymous with the word debate? What are you saying? That I should agree with you or just shut up? Gee
  3. Swansont; I have read a few of Vexen's threads and not found them to be of interest. Vexen seems to have an average understanding of Religion, so I found nothing close to theology is his posts. I did not read the "original" thread, but if John Bauer posted there, I will give it a look see as there may be some information there. Obviously I can not talk to John Bauer, as he has left the forum. I am also a little curious about why John's posts were thought to be "off-topic", since I saw no indication that members knew what he was talking about. No. John included a denial in the OP, not a discussion. There is a difference. This is what John wrote in the OP: "Your question regarded the human soul, which you described as "the spiritual or immaterial" part of us that is supposedly "immortal," and you were wondering when that was "imparted to humans during the course of evolution." The very first thing I would have to be clear about is that I reject this Platonic or Cartesian anthropology as a widely believed yet utterly unbiblical tradition (never mind its complete lack of any scientific merit)." This is what John wrote later in the thread: "And where is evolution described in the Bible? It's not. Evolution pertains to science and natural history, whereas the Bible is about theology and redemptive history." If you read the underlined statements, it is clear that John Bauer was not challenging Science and evolution. I don't know if the other members have a reading problem or a comprehension problem, but John did not wish to discuss Science's evolution. Other members would not drop it. There is so much wrong with the above statement, that I don't even know where to start. 1) Evolution does not have to be biological evolution, nor is it limited to the start of the Universe. 2) Archeology studies the evolution of cultures and societies. 3) Historians study the evolution of language, art, agriculture, and the development of skills like building, mining, and tanning leather, etc. 4) Philosophy and Psychology study the evolution of consciousness and mind. 5) People study the evolution of the planet by comparing ancient texts of rivers, continents, mountains, etc. 6) When studying ancient societies, a lot of the information about them is in religious texts. 7) The Bible is probably one of the most studied books in history for it's information on some kind of evolution. This is the part of John Bauer's post that I was interested in: "There are two—and only two—federal representatives of humanity in the covenant relationship between God and us. Adam was the first, in whom we are fallen, because nobody before him was a federal representative of humanity before God. And Christ was the second (and last), in whom we are redeemed, because nobody after him was a federal representative." These two "federal representatives" of humanity mark distinct advances in consciousness. That is what I wanted to talk about -- consciousness. Adam, Eve, and the Garden of Eden have been studied to death and the general consensus in Psychology is that this story is representative of the development of the rational aspect of mind, (or the soul) which differentiates us from other species. It has a lot of support. There is also a literal understanding that Eve represents the fall of the "goddess" and priestesses, and associates it with the story of Lilith, who was very powerful at that time. This is where we developed a patriarchal "God" and marks a distinct change between the ancient goddess mother image to the father image. Like all good metaphors, it is both literal and figurative and has many layers of understanding. Many years ago, I noted that the Old Testament was about an invisible "God" who concerned himself with physical things like war, health issues, laws, government, etc., but the New Testament was about a physical "God", human, who concerned himself with spiritual (metaphysical) things. This dichotomy interested me as there is a possibility that this is also representative of a distinct advance in consciousness. Yes, there are other nonreligious studies that suggest a change in human consciousness about 500 years before Jesus. But John Bauer's post was the first that I found that compares the two. I would have liked to know where he got his information. According to Wiki: "In metaphysics, the concept of "Soul" may be equated with that of "Mind" in order to refer to the consciousness and intellect of the individual." According to me, when you read the word "God", if you think "consciousness", you will find that it makes a lot more sense in context. Of course in order to do this, you have to have an abstract mind capable of considering "God" without picturing "God". Gee
  4. Prometheus; My apologies. I am American, and we call our language English, but it is really American. You might want to notify spell-check and correct that problem as "pretence" is underlined as a misspelled word. None of this changes your statement regarding "pretence of academia". You are stating that Religions pretend to academics, which means that you are denying that theology is an academic study, or you are saying that it is nonsense -- which is an ignorant thing to say. And loads of science people try to destroy religious beliefs. What is your point? Arguing Science v Religion is like arguing apples and oranges, it is a stupid waste of time spawned from an archaic false dichotomy called Monism v Dualism. I have heard of a lot of things. Did you have an on-topic point? Or are you wandering again? When you say "should be", you are talking about what you want something to be -- you are not talking about facts or reality. This is a Philosophy forum. You know how Science guys get real particular about the word "theory"? Well philosophers get that same way with the word "opinion". Unless you are talking about the other use of the word opinion; you know, where people say that "opinions are like assholes, everybody has one"? But that kind of opinion is worthless. Well as long as you are not alone in your opinions, you must be right. You should ask Strange which formal logic applies in this situation. But what does Hume have to do with angels? Are you wandering again? Since no one in this thread has thus far even recognized the topic, then what would be the point of trying to be serious? You are moving goal posts. You did not state that Religion was "wrong", you stated that it had failed. Are you wandering again? Religion is not a study of "empirical matters", but it is interesting to note that Copernicus compared Islam's ideas about the Universe with the Christian ideas about the Universe and these comparisons helped to lead him to a much better understanding, which he put in a book that has been referred to as the book that nobody read. Apparently, back in his day, everyone agreeing with you made you right -- and made him wrong. What does this thread have to do with "the shape of the Earth" or "vaccines"? Are you wandering -- again? Meditation is meditation -- it is not a study of consciousness. Oh yeah. Reading your posts is a lot like watching a butterfly flit through a flower garden. As long as I am not trying to learn anything, it is very relaxing. Gee
  5. Prometheus; You might want to study Hume. He lived many centuries ago, is a well respected philosopher, and had a lot to say about "should be". Of course he called it "ought to be" because that was the terminology used in his time; you can find his work in Wiki under "is and ought". In a nutshell, he explained that people will take what "is" and replace it with what "ought to be" so they can always be right. imo No. The only thing I assumed was that when you used the word "pretence", you meant pretense. This is what you stated: "All this pretence at academia by 'religious' people seems to belie an insecurity and need for validation with science." "Pretense at academia" means that they are pretending to be academic. It is not real, whereas you validate with Science which you believe to be real. Do we need another English lesson? I am not sure what you are observing. Religion has been around for tens of thousands of years all over the world as validated by archeology and still permeates cultures and societies today. If that is failure, what would be success? One of it's values lies in the study of consciousness. Of course I would value another perspective, but it would have to be on topic. We already discussed this in another thread, and I did not find that you had more to offer on the subject of souls. Oh, but it is so much fun to watch you build your reputation on nonsense. Arguing with me is always good for an up-vote. Gee
  6. Strange; A hand is not Science either, but that does not stop Science from studying it. I would expect that a moderator would know that. People in this forum have even used math to try to validate, or invalidate, the "God" concept. YodaP comes to mind. In this thread, evolution was brought in -- by the wannabe science guys -- not by John Bauer. Evolution is a study in Science, isn't it? If you do not read my posts, how could you possibly know if they have "meaningful content"? I challenge you to state in a few sentences what John Bauer was talking about and why that would interest me. I doubt that you can do it because you, along with everyone else, are clueless as to the actual topic. I'll give you a hint -- I study consciousness. So asking someone to prove a negative is the "correct application of formal logic"? Keep studying, and you may want to review your ideas on the "strawman" concept. I normally don't challenge you when you state something ridiculous because it is hard to do without being rude, but also because I am ever mindful of your position as moderator. You need to be respected. But when I just walk away, you apparently believe that you won or that you were correct. This is not necessarily the case. Now it does not matter anymore. And consciousness. Religion has been studying consciousness for tens of thousands of years, maybe a hundred thousand years. That is right. A person does not have to be religious to study the concepts behind the stories. I would venture to state that there were no theologians in this thread, with the possible exception of John Bauer, which would be why no one understood that he was talking about the concepts that are behind the stories. I understood it because I study consciousness -- not a theologian -- just a philosopher. Gee
  7. Strange; Philosophy is not Philosophy? What? Religion is not in the Philosophy section? What? So stop supporting them. A few points to consider: 1) You did not post in this thread prior to my comments, so I was not referencing your posts. 2) Pretty much everything you know comes from "educational sources", because that is what you trust. That is why you are a "science guy" because you only trust the "known" as being valid. Philosophy deals with the as yet "unknown", or not yet validated. 3) You recently asked me to prove a negative and even called it a "reasonable" request. Logic is not your forte, so you don't trust it, which is why you are not a philosopher. Philosophy uses logic, analysis, and critical thinking to put parameters around the unknown. 4) I have often wished that I could have a discussion with you, Prometheus, and even dimreepr, as you all have knowledge about Religion that I would like to learn about and discuss. But I can't get past the downvoting, bias, and ignorance that permeates this forum, so I gave up. There are other forums and other people, who have studied Religion. Gee Prometheus; What is wrong with laymen vehemently arguing a point with a person educated in the subject matter? Let's say that I took my layman's understanding of Physics to the Physics forum (like that would ever happen), and then I told Swansont that he had no idea of what he was talking about. What kind of fool would I look like? Well, that is the kind of fool some members in this thread looked like. Compassion is not the subject of this thread, and since you admittedly don't care (underlined by me) what the subject is, you are off-topic. Your inability to discipline your mind to the subject at hand is one of the reasons why I do not relish discussion with you. Your opinion is noted and worthless. It is based on the premise that "academia" belongs solely to Science. Nonsense. I just want to study consciousness. It is an elusive subject that has defied understanding by some of the greatest minds we have ever known. Early on I learned that a person has to throw out their biases, discipline their thoughts, and reexamine their "truths" in order to learn anything about this subject. I wanted to talk to Quiet in the NDE thread, as he made some interesting and intelligent comments, but I was loath to draw him into a discussion in a thread that quickly turned into a "witch hunt". I wanted to talk to John Bauer as he also made some interesting and intelligent comments, but I did not get to him before he left the forum. My greatest fear is that I will become as sloppy in my thinking as others have become. That is why I have been looking at other forums, because there is no one here who can help me. Gee
  8. Moontanman; Please note that I stated "many" members, not all members. You did not post in this thread prior to my comments, and as far as I know, you have never communicated with John Bauer, so it is a little presumptuous to assume that I was talking about you. So you are saying that the above comments are examples of your cool logic? your deep analysis? your critical thinking? What should I say to that? What can I say to that? I rest my case? Gee dimreepr; It is really very simple; I got tired of apologetics. When I first joined Science forums, I had a real respect for Science, you could even say that I was in awe of much of Science. A few years in this forum has taught me that there are two Sciences -- the real one that I still respect -- and the other wannabe one that I see displayed in the Philosophy and Religion forums. There is no Science in the comments in this thread, just a lot of arrogance, ignorance, and bias. It is obvious as a nose on a face that the members posting here have no real education as regards Religion, and learned their religious ideas at their mother's knee or in their local churches. They have a very layman's understanding and did not even know what John Bauer was talking about. I am simply tired of apologizing for wannabe scientists. Gee
  9. John Bauer; It was a pleasure to read your comments in this thread, as it is not often that I find someone who is so obviously intelligent, knowledgeable, and educated in these matters, and is also religious. (At least it is rare in this discussion forum.) I am sorry that I did not notice your thread earlier, as I would have loved to have a discussion with you on the matter of "souls". I am a philosopher by nature and habit, not by formal training, and have studied consciousness for most of my life. My studies have naturally caused me to also study Religion, but I should notify you that I, myself, am not religious. This does not stop me from appreciating and respecting Religion, and if anything, causes me to try to protect people's religious beliefs. There is a good chance that you are no longer posting in this forum, and I can't say that I would blame you after the less than adequate responses you received. You were looking for intelligent conversation and did not get it. Believe it or not, many of the members here are knowledgeable and intelligent; it is only when posting in the Religion forum that they seem to "eat a plate full of stupid" before posting. If you are reading this, and are still interested in conversation, let me know via the PM system -- send me a private message -- of where we might be able to have a real discussion on the matter of souls. Maybe another forum? Gee
  10. Aurora light; Yes there was a lot of testing done in the 1960's and 1970's by governments, Universities, AND private individuals. But they were not testing magic, they were testing psychic phenomenon. They learned that psychic phenomenon does happen; they also learned that there was no way to control it, to cause it to happen on command, so it was useless to continue the studies. Nothing was hidden as there were numerous articles about the various studies. There was no conspiracy. It is important to remember that there are a lot of differences between Science, science fiction, and Hollywood movies about mutants. Science and evolution have a long way to go before we will have any control over psychic phenomenon, if we ever do. Gee
  11. Oh goody! Trump would love that. He always believed he would be a better king than he is a President.
  12. Eise: Science and Philosophy both study reality, but use different methodologies. We have been through this before. You can not work Philosophy without having a valid premise. You can not know that a premise is valid unless you compare it to reality. If you do not base your Philosophy on reality, then you can not know if you are working Philosophy, taking a wild ass guess, rationalizing, or lying through your teeth. And who decides what we "should" think and what is "practical"? I remember a lunatic by the name of Hitler, who decided those things. His "Philosophy" worked pretty OK, until the body count got too high. Is that what Philosophy is? A rationalization made by any lunatic or liar, who can get people to believe him? When Science is worked badly, we tend to call it speculation or science fiction. When Religion is worked badly, we tend to call it a cult. When Philosophy is worked badly, we tend to call it armchair philosophy -- I tend to call it nonsense. No. People who ask questions may love Philosophy, but it is the people who find answers, who are philosophers. What I miss in your postings is philosophical loyalty. You have no love of Philosophy. You claim to be a philosopher, but write post after post exclaiming on the wonders of Science, while dismissing the value of Philosophy (except where it applies to Science). What I think is that you are a Science guy, who did not have the discipline and "rigour" to actually BE a scientist, so you side stepped into Philosophy to enjoy Science vicariously. I don't get every definition right, but in general, the problem is that I am too precise. Science and Philosophy were mixed up before I met them. (chuckle) Check your history. Didn't you write: "Philosophy that does not take science into account is worthless." in the "What is a God?" thread? Well there are not very many philosophers here in this forum, and the few who are do not necessarily study consciousness. Do you mean like in the "NDE" thread where you stated that there is no "mind/body problem"? I think you said it was something about "perspective". I considered responding. I was going to ask when you plan to publish, so after you stunned the world with your brilliance and received your Nobel, then I could maybe read your work. But I decided that you may have been having a bad day, so I didn't respond. Or do you mean like in the "Souls" thread where you lectured me about Jung's archetypes? I didn't think you understood archetypes, as you did not recognize them in my "Understanding the 'God' Concept" thread. I very clearly explained the "God" concept and even named the four triggers that cause it to surface, life, death, Nature, and morality. You responded by stating that "God" does not exist. Well, duh, I said that in the OP. Archetypes do not actually exist, but are very real because they are causal. The "God" concept is an archetype. Ah huh. So you are saying that family, friends, teachers, employers, co-workers, and strangers can not also be academic philosophers? Or are you trying to goad me into giving you names, so that you can attack persons, who are not here to defend themselves? I don't think so. I don't appreciate these personal attacks and would request that they stop. Gee Dimreepr; Sometimes you need background studies and information in order to understand a complex idea. Consciousness is a very complex idea. Understanding. Gee
  13. FreeWill; No. When I first joined this thread on Page 7, I had two goals in mind. The first was to deflect from a pack attack I saw circling around WTF regarding "emergence", but now I see the pack circling me with the latest personal attacks. I expect that this will be my last post to you in this thread, so I will try to sum up my thoughts. The second reason was because I saw the tendency to confuse sapience (thought) with sentience (feeling). Comparing sapience with sentience is like comparing apples and oranges. Yes, they are similar and have many mutual qualities, but they are not the same thing. If you have 100 apples, it will not give you one orange. Mashing thousands of apples will not give you orange juice, and neither will sapience give you sentience. People have long believed that it takes a sapient mind, or intelligence, to cause life or sentience. This is a very old idea that predates history. First there was a "God" with a sapient mind, who caused life; then an Intelligent Designer; then aliens with Chariots of the Gods; I have also read time travel theories where we cause our own development; and now AI, with its intelligence will somehow become magically sentient. What I see in all this are rationalizations of a sapient mind causing life and sentience with different agents playing the various rolls. What I have not seen is evidence that supports this belief, and I doubt that the evidence exists. Evolution says it doesn't exist. If AI does become sentient, it will not be because of its intelligence. It will be because someone, probably accidentally, caused matter to be infused with energy in a way that causes it to enhance itself. Think of soap bubbles: You can put water in a bowl then add liquid dish detergent and nothing will seem to happen, but if you add energy (your fingers agitating the water) then bubbles appear. The more energy, the more bubbles. At what point does the soap bubble start to energize itself to create more bubbles? That is the question of life and sentience. Life perpetuates itself through motion, and sentience, which is subjective, appears to be causal in this motion. If you want a better understanding of the subjective self than I can give, you could look up Chalmer's "zombie", which is in the SEP, the on-line Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy put out by Stanford University. Or you could look up Nagel's "What is it like to be a bat?" -- both are in Wiki. Let's get away from intelligence and look at some very simple life forms that are sentient; a leaf, an earthworm, and bacteria. A leaf will push its way into reality from a seed in the ground, or a stem, or a branch, forging a place for itself. An earthworm will rummage through the ground seeking to satisfy needs/wants in order to maintain itself. Bacteria will split itself in half to ensure that part of it continues even after it dies. These things are evidence of sentient life and survival instincts, and require little or no intelligence. Sentient life is subjectively assertive. AI can do lots of amazing things, it can sense many things, but it does these things in response to objective goals -- our goals. That makes it a really cool tool. If it were sentient, it would have its own subjective goals, its own agenda. That agenda would include asserting itself into reality like the leaf, it would include maintaining itself like the earthworm, and it would include ensuring its own continuance like the bacteria. It would be rational because it is AI, but it would not really care what we want, as it would have its own wants. To be sentient, it would assert its own subjective wants and needs above our wants and needs. In short it would be selfish as all life is. Gee
  14. dimreepr; It is easier to read what I write, if you read what I actually write, rather than what you think, or assume, I mean. Since most of my writing is about consciousness, and people have a lot of preconceived notions of what that is, it is important to actually read what I actually write. Philosophy is the study of reality. Did you know that? A "self-proclaimed" philosopher? People have been calling me a philosopher all of my life; family, friends, teachers, employers, co-workers, strangers, even my doctor. I started announcing that I was a philosopher in the first Science forum I posted in because some people there thought I was a scientist. I am not a scientist and would never let that impression stand as it would be fraudulent and an insult to real scientists. Have you ever heard the expression, "opinions are like assholes, everybody has one"? Well, actually we have a lot more than one, so how do we decide which opinion has value and which does not? Us, philosophy types, like to write something we call a philosophical argument. This is where we list our reasoning, logic, evidence, and experiences that caused us to form the opinion. You can read this "argument" and maybe you will be swayed to consider my opinion, or maybe you will be able to see a flaw in my logic, reasoning, or find my evidence invalid, or maybe you will point out that my experience is too singular or unique to base any truth upon. Either way, there is an opportunity to learn something, and Philosophy is all about learning. Gee
  15. FreeWill; I am not going to debate objectivity and subjectivity with you as these concepts have been worked out and accepted by minds better than ours for hundreds or thousands of years, but I think I see your point. If AI can gather information through sensors and hold that information internally, and also process that information, it appears that it is aware of that information and therefore sentient. Yes? Is that what you are saying? I don't agree that this makes AI sentient because sentience is more than gathering and processing information, but I will have to work out what I think is missing and what I would accept as evidence of sentience in AI. So give me a week or so to come up with some thoughts on this. Gee
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