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Can be that the Natural Numbers are Finite?
Conscious Energy replied to Conscious Energy's topic in General Philosophy
Zero being a natural number, has nothing to do with that, some include it and some do not. If the information is perceivable in the natural physical reality than it’s part of the natural numbers. As far as I am able to perceive, in every point of space I can take 0 at any time. I think the physical value of 0 is distributed by SpaceTime ( the physical 4D empty set). Can a physically 0 entity (point of space) have minimal level of extent? 
Can be that the Natural Numbers are Finite?
Conscious Energy replied to Conscious Energy's topic in General Philosophy
I have difficulties to imagine that a 1cm3 space can contain more points that the whole universe has all together. I do not see how physically the whole Universe with all its distance could fit in 1 cm3 if it would be true. Which law says a point has absolutely no space and a minimal length? How is it reasoned that a point of space has no physical extent? I can count distance and time with the natural numbers. Every point of space has a current moment of now. I think a point has a minimal extent since it has a local space of recognition by the local time of observation. Even it is the smallest physically recognisable Space by the shortest moment of Time. Some space will be there. If not and a point has absolutely no space by the time of observation why and how that is possible? 
Can be that the Natural Numbers are Finite?
Conscious Energy replied to Conscious Energy's topic in General Philosophy
I think they are interconnected. I don’t know imaginary math and physics. I am relative good with the math and physics of Natural Reality. This what I doubt if: Yes. 0 1 2 3 4 5 …. the ones in Nature I can count with. 
Can be that the Natural Numbers are Finite?
Conscious Energy replied to Conscious Energy's topic in General Philosophy
You can not have more natural number then the information about them in Nature. I think the present Time = Now provides a limit to information available. 
Can be that the Natural Numbers are Finite?
Conscious Energy replied to Conscious Energy's topic in General Philosophy
Do you see Time at rest? Is there any physical circumstances time absolutely do not pass? A black hole gets older, time (differently) pass in it, not? 
Can be that the Natural Numbers are Finite?
Conscious Energy replied to Conscious Energy's topic in General Philosophy
Did you see anything at rest? An atom for example without our galaxies 660km/S motion in the extragalactic frame of reference and the gravity it provides? Isn’t the volume of SpaceTime is the fundamental frame of reference? How this frame could be infinite if we have a present and not yet happened Future. How do you deny it is Finite? How you prove SpaceTime is infinite and there is infinite amount of natural numbers to account every point of information of it? How can you have more (infinite) numbers than the information the universe provides? We can not account 0,000…01% of the universe. Why do you suppose it is infinite? Numbers are a human invention we need energy invested to be able to account! There are no signs of infinite Energy or Matter. No signs of infinite Time or Space. If I use every existing energy and matter to feed a device counts natural numbers, when the Universe is out of energy and matter my device stops and gives a limit to the counted natural numbers (worst case scenario). Our lack of accounting further the natural numbers won’t stop the Universe to provide more and more information. 
Can be that the Natural Numbers are Finite?
Conscious Energy replied to Conscious Energy's topic in General Philosophy
Time is information The system is the Universe Every macroscopic physical entity has an age since when it exist and the age is increasing by time. Time is countable by natural numbers. Time is not infinite. It has a physical limit by the present, now. True, but we count the members of the physical reality with math (natural numbers) Can I try to recognise and understand anything physical without math? 
Can be that the Natural Numbers are Finite?
Conscious Energy replied to Conscious Energy's topic in General Philosophy
I try to be. There is a big difference between finite and infinite natural numbers. It is in the philosophy section. I avoid other topics. I think I am allowed to think with any parts of reality (space, time, energy, matter) and try to express them with math to answer such a difficult question. You could express where from you could have the energy matter and time to account every natural value of space, time, energy and matter. I understand it seems infinite. Since time is a natural physical limit, theoretically math can not be absolutely infinite. We have no chance to count every natural number because it’s overall number to account is more with every upcoming moment of time. Sadly we do not know the exact age of time and the exact rate of empty space expansion by time. st0 —> st1 ca 9 billion km/s (c2) to all direction, to know everything exactly. If the system is finite we can call its overall value 1. You always measure under gravity in a local space and a relative time, what is impacting your measurement but not impacting the age of SpaceTime you measure within! Or galaxy moves within the extragalactic frame of reference with 660km/s. There is space before and after on the path of a black hole, where in a 1 000 years time difference in the extragalactic frame of reference a photon path with a different path. Or do you think that a black hole put an extra spin in the space it path? Can you help me with a physical example undeniably proves infinity? 
Can be that the Natural Numbers are Finite?
Conscious Energy replied to Conscious Energy's topic in General Philosophy
How can the collection of all natural numbers be infinite if the numbers of physically recognisable entities are finite? Reality sure has a limit by Time Now —> the future not yet happened. 
Can be that the Natural Numbers are Finite?
Conscious Energy replied to Conscious Energy's topic in General Philosophy
Again, not pertinent to the OP. It has a link I think. Because if SpaceTime is a finite entity there is no way that any point of it would be absolutely infinite. Physically for sure. If something is physically finite, I do not see how that something could be mathematically infinite.? 
Can be that the Natural Numbers are Finite?
Conscious Energy replied to Conscious Energy's topic in General Philosophy
How you prove, that segment of space has infinite points? A point has a minimal space (extent), not? What proves a point has absolutely no space? You need time to determine the segment. You need time to count the points. Space does not exist without time. Thought experiments to prove it. 
Can be that the Natural Numbers are Finite?
Conscious Energy replied to Conscious Energy's topic in General Philosophy
If there is space, there is time. There is the timeline of Time (t0—>Tnow). It is a linear vector pointing to the Future. It is true in every point of space, independent a black hole or interstellar space exist in it. Of course the perception of current time in the local space is depending from: is it a black hole there or almost emptiness. The shifting black hole does not change the age of the space it is pathing through or alter the age of the galaxy it is existing in by being heavy. Or? How? What physical property space has which can be impacted by gravity? Isn’t gravity is the result of mass? —> the heavier object has bigger gravitational pull? Maybe big enough to pull even a photon or it’s wave distribution. How could we realise that photons and waves also has some minimal mass? What proves that a photon is absolutely mass less? 
Can be that the Natural Numbers are Finite?
Conscious Energy replied to Conscious Energy's topic in General Philosophy
The line is time and the one dimensional segment is a point of space. The shortest time we take the smallest space and we call it plank unit. If I record this smallest unit of space in a moment of time how is it possible that there are an infinite number of plank units to be count? If you try to count, you count on a 2D line of Time because of your physical reality related capabilities to measure. Time pass. Linearly forward pointing to the future within every point of space. 0D —> 1D —>4D (Space)Time. 0D = moment of time 1D= point of space 2D= line of space or Time within Space(Time) we can measure 4D= 3D volume by 1D Time. The size of Natural Reality, Now. 
If I give every point of space, every electron and atom a natural number(by the time of existence) I got a huge number, inexpressible, but still finite. Now. For every physical entity, even for the points of space, time will pass with every upcoming moment in the future, which again an add to the set of natural numbers I will not be able to count but countable. I know that with every moment of time there is more information in the system. But how could it be infinite, if the Future numbers and the possibility to account them, not yet happened? Where are the physical signs of infinity? Why are we counting infinite? Why don’t we count finite?

Curvature in spacetime is shown as a "fabric"
Conscious Energy replied to pmourad's topic in Relativity
That is what I mean. I see fabric (particles) act upon mass (gravity) in a local spacetime. I do not see how the elements of a zero set could give a path/route to anything, from as little as a wave, not to speak about a black hole, when space and time has no physically detectable attributes beyond data.