beecee

"And Webb will orbit around L2, not sit stationary precisely at L2. Webb's orbit is represented in this screenshot from our deployment video (below), roughly to scale; it is actually similar in size to the Moon's orbit around the Earth! This orbit (which takes Webb about 6 months to complete once) keeps the telescope out of the shadows of both the Earth and Moon. Unlike Hubble, which goes in and out of Earth shadow every 90 minutes, Webb will have an unimpeded view that will allow science operations 24/7". https://webb.nasa.gov/content/about/orbit.html

My posts are supported by scientists and evidence of spacetime expansion. Your's seem to be nothing more then anti mainstream rants. I mean if you have real evidence that mainstream cosmology is wrong, (in any aspect) then present your observational and/or experimental evidence. We may then see you in Stockholm next November. Best of luck!

Now that makes much more sense then the unsupported rhetoric in the OP!

That's what I said. 🙄 Don't be silly now. Or perhaps you meant illogically speaking? While this is largely a thought experiment on where members think Aliens would come from (and which it appears you still lack the intestinal fortitude to answer), we should leave your myths out of it. Let's put the nonsense that octopuses and/or plants could ever undertake space travel to bed. The following extracts from an excellent article says it far better then I could......... https://theconversation.com/curious-kids-could-octopuses-evolve-until-they-take-over-the-world-and-travel-to-space-156493 extracts: Michael, aged 14, asks: "If the faster part of human evolution is over, and squids and octopuses continue to evolve, could there be an apocalypse where the cephalopods take over the world?" ANSWER: EXTRACTS: "They use tools to solve problems (like us) and they can open child-proof containers (not always like us). And just last week, research found a cuttlefish (another cephalopod, cousins of octopuses) passed an intelligence test designed for toddlers that showed they have advanced self control. Like us, octopus have large brains compared to their body size: It is, however, hard to compare brain size between marine animals and land animals, because the laws of physics differ in water and air. Animals are weightless in water but on land body shape and size is limited by gravity. An octopus brain is made up of about 500 million brain cells. Humans, on the other hand, have 86 billion brain cells. Unlike us though, octopuses don’t live for very long. The giant Pacific octopus might live up to five years, but most live for just a year and some as little as six months. Compared to other species, octopuses actually evolve really, really slowly. Modern humans, by comparison, have only existed for 200,000 years and in that time, have taken over the planet (and badly damaged it in the process). But lets face it. Despite all their tricks, octopuses are still working from a snail blueprint, and there’s only so much you can do with that toolbox. They are also highly constrained by their very short life-span. In short, octopuses are very intelligent animals and one of the smartest creatures in the ocean. But their short life span and vulnerabilities on land are serious handicaps when it comes to taking over the world. (Or to undertake space travel) ps: Last highlighted bracketed sentence by me. Here's a "controversial" study by a group of scientists that propose that octopuses, really are Alien! https://qz.com/1281064/a-controversial-study-has-a-new-spin-on-the-otherworldliness-of-the-octopus/ A controversial study has a new spin on the otherworldliness of the octopus: Octopuses are strange, smart creatures that certainly seem alien—what with the tentacles, camouflage, and shape-shifting skills. Still, the idea that they actually came from outer space would seem to fall strictly into the realm of sci-fi; an update of HP Lovecraft’s Cthulhu, say. But in these interesting times, real life reads like fiction. Recently, a group of 33 scientists worldwide—including molecular immunologist Edward Steele and astrobiologist Chandra Wickramasinghe—published a paper suggesting, in all seriousness, that octopuses may indeed be aliens. more at link........................ the paper: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079610718300798?via%3Dihub Cause of Cambrian Explosion - Terrestrial or Cosmic? Abstract: We review the salient evidence consistent with or predicted by the Hoyle-Wickramasinghe (H-W) thesis of Cometary (Cosmic) Biology. Much of this physical and biological evidence is multifactorial. One particular focus are the recent studies which date the emergence of the complex retroviruses of vertebrate lines at or just before the Cambrian Explosion of ∼500 Ma. Such viruses are known to be plausibly associated with major evolutionary genomic processes. We believe this coincidence is not fortuitous but is consistent with a key prediction of H-W theory whereby major extinction-diversification evolutionary boundaries coincide with virus-bearing cometary-bolide bombardment events. A second focus is the remarkable evolution of intelligent complexity (Cephalopods) culminating in the emergence of the Octopus. A third focus concerns the micro-organism fossil evidence contained within meteorites as well as the detection in the upper atmosphere of apparent incoming life-bearing particles from space. In our view the totality of the multifactorial data and critical analyses assembled by Fred Hoyle, Chandra Wickramasinghe and their many colleagues since the 1960s leads to a very plausible conclusion – life may have been seeded here on Earth by life-bearing comets as soon as conditions on Earth allowed it to flourish (about or just before 4.1 Billion years ago); and living organisms such as space-resistant and space-hardy bacteria, viruses, more complex eukaryotic cells, fertilised ova and seeds have been continuously delivered ever since to Earth so being one important driver of further terrestrial evolution which has resulted in considerable genetic diversity and which has led to the emergence of mankind. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::\ Hmmm, Panspermia...not as controversial (imo) as they are making out.

I do see plenty though to conclude plants, intelligent or otherwise, will not achieve inter-planetary space travel. Much of the rest of your post is opinion based. Will Aliens be hostile? perhaps, perhaps not. Perhaps we have a certain level reached with intelligence, that will see the futility of hostility, over peaceful co-existence. Perhaps an advanced Alien species, having achieved inter-stellar travel, will be at that threshold. I prefer to remain optimistic in that regard. http://humoropedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/optimism-quote.jpg

A couple of points, firstly you should post in the correct section, if you have any evidence that you believe contradicts mainstream interpretation, secondly, know what mainstream is thoroughly before attempting to discredit it. There are three types of redshift, Doppler, cosmological, and gravitational. In essence, you are wrong. https://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos/c/cosmological+redshift#:~:text=The Doppler shift would be,when the photons were emitted. Laboratory experiments here on Earth have determined that each element in the periodic table emits photons only at certain wavelengths (determined by the excitation state of the atoms). These photons are manifest as either emission or absorption lines in the spectrum of an astronomical object, and by measuring the position of these spectral lines, we can determine which elements are present in the object itself or along the line of sight. However, when astronomers perform this analysis, they note that for most astronomical objects, the observed spectral lines are all shifted to longer (redder) wavelengths. This is known as ‘cosmological redshift’ (or more commonly just ‘redshift’) and is given by: extract: For example, in a distant binary system it is theoretically possible to measure both a Doppler shift and a cosmological redshift. The Doppler shift would be determined by the motions of the individual stars in the binary – whether they were approaching or receding at the time the photons were emitted. The cosmological redshift would be determined by how far away the system was when the photons were emitted. The larger the distance to the system, the longer the emitted photons have travelled through expanding space and the higher the measured cosmological redshift.

Another incredible aspect of the James Webb.... The temperature difference between the hot and cold sides of the telescope is huge - you could almost boil water on the hot side, and freeze nitrogen on the cold side! from previous link.....

And of course, as to the lifetime of it at L2. Some info on that here....... https://blogs.nasa.gov/webb/2021/12/29/nasa-says-webbs-excess-fuel-likely-to-extend-its-lifetime-expectations/ NASA Says Webb’s Excess Fuel Likely to Extend its Lifetime Expectations After a successful launch of NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope Dec. 25, and completion of two mid-course correction maneuvers, the Webb team has analyzed its initial trajectory and determined the observatory should have enough propellant to allow support of science operations in orbit for significantly more than a 10-year science lifetime. (The minimum baseline for the mission is five years.) The analysis shows that less propellant than originally planned for is needed to correct Webb’s trajectory toward its final orbit around the second Lagrange point known as L2, a point of gravitational balance on the far side of Earth away from the Sun. Consequently, Webb will have much more than the baseline estimate of propellant – though many factors could ultimately affect Webb’s duration of operation. Webb has rocket propellant onboard not only for midcourse correction and insertion into orbit around L2, but also for necessary functions during the life of the mission, including “station keeping” maneuvers – small thruster burns to adjust Webb’s orbit — as well as what’s known as momentum management, which maintains Webb’s orientation in space. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: It seems iNow has already supplied this in previous post. I'm blaming the drink after New Year!

I'm not saying it or us are superior,only that "human resemblance evolutionary process" seems more likely to be able to undertake space travel, building sky scrapers, bridges, space stations, LHC type machinery etc etc. I marvel at the intelligence of octupus,...I marvel at the social hierarchy and emotions of Elephants...the ability of Orcas to solving problems in obtaining lunch/dinner. But I also understand that if some life does inhabit the Ocean's of Europa, or Enceledus, or Titan, it is somewhat confined by its evolutionary path, as Orcas appear confined, and Elephants appear curtailed by there physical form. Perhaps this is why through out the 19th, 20th and now 21st century, travelling Aliens (as we imagine) are mostly humanoid form. I'll accept certain other lizard like forms also. Human success has come about due to our physical makeup, our original brainwave in climbing down out of the trees and walking upright, the continued developing of that brain, coupled with that amazing opposing thumb, taming fire etc. Communication/language and understanding each other was also a requirement for human advancement. Do Aliens exist, is another important question. We can either go with favouring the Fermi paradox or the Drake equation. While accepting we still have no concrete evidence for the existence of any life off this Earth, I put my money on the Drake equation. I beleive Fermi has overlooked the time and distance barriers to inter-planetary contact. I have already expressed my views on forward and backward time travel. I might well ask you, why isn't it time travel? Not as normally envisaged, but still time travel none the less. As Thorne says, Time is personal/relative. Give me time...please? I have just awaken after New Year! Happy New Year to you also, and stay safe! OK, only one time dimension, accepted...but it is also a personal/relative concept, that is interchangeable with space. Not sure how else to address your post (remember, I'm noly a poor old retired maintenace fitter/machinist/welder) You also say the spacetime framework,(manifold) is the wrong shape. That shape though is distorted by mass/energy. (Perhaps as someone suggested, we should start a thread on time travel?)

Ahh yes, I have that book, ( actually out on loan at this time) What I was referring to was the following...https://plus.maths.org/content/time-travel-allowed extract: In brief: The laws of physics allow members of an exceedingly advanced civilisation to travel forward in time as fast as they might wish. Backward time travel is another matter; we do not know whether it is allowed by the laws of physics, and the answer is likely controlled by a set of physical laws that we do not yet understand at all well: the laws of quantum gravity. In order for humans to travel forward in time very rapidly, or backward (if allowed at all), we would need technology far far beyond anything we are capable of today. Travelling forward in time rapidly Albert Einstein's relativistic laws of physics tell us that time is "personal". If you and I move differently or are at different locations in a gravitational field, then the rate of flow of time that you experience (the rate that governs the ticking of any very good clock you carry with you and that governs the aging of your body) is different from the rate of time flow that I experience. (Einstein used the phrase "time is relative"; I prefer "time is personal".) ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: This is the sort of time travel that I automatically think of when the subject arises.

How do you mean? One literally is time travelling when flying. There was also an account detailing near what I said with relation to future and past time travel by Kip Thorne, but I cannot find it now.

yes, WIKI also says....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jocelyn_Bell_Burnell "The paper announcing the discovery of pulsars had five authors. Bell's thesis supervisor Antony Hewish[5][6] was listed first, Bell second. Hewish was awarded the Nobel Prize, along with the astronomer Martin Ryle. At the time fellow astronomer Sir Fred Hoyle criticised Bell's omission." then went on to say..... "In 1977, Bell Burnell commented, "I believe it would demean Nobel Prizes if they were awarded to research students, except in very exceptional cases, and I do not believe this is one of them." "Finally, I am not myself upset about it – after all, I am in good company, am I not" 15] The Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences, in its press release announcing the prize,[16] cited Ryle and Hewish for their pioneering work in radio-astrophysics, with particular mention of Ryle's work on aperture-synthesis technique and Hewish's decisive role in the discovery of pulsars. Bell Burnell was president of the Royal Astronomical Society from 2002 to 2004, president of the Institute of Physics from October 2008 until October 2010, and interim president of the Institute following the death of her successor, Marshall Stoneham, in early 2011. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: I would though still have to agree with Fred Hoyle's criticism. Jocylin Bell is still with us and now aged 78. Times of course were far different then, and generally a woman's job was to remain in the ktchen, "bare foot and pregnant" Still after Madam Curie and her two Nobels, plus Irene her daughter also sharing one in 1935, one would have though that science of all disciplines would have "seen the light" so to speak. As an aside, imho Madam Curie and her Husband Pierre Curie epitomise the scientific discipline/s, for their total dedication, hard back breaking work and devotion. All amply illustrated in a great movie, made in 1943, and starring Greer Garson and Walter Pidgeon.

Discussing the gist of this thread, "Possible alien origins" the choices given were.....Another planetary system: Another plan of existence: Another hidden (deep sea or underground would be possible examples) civilization: Time travelers from the far future: I chose "another planetary system" because of the "near infinite" extent and content of our universe, and the stuff of life being everywhere we look. My thoughts on the resemblance was as follows.... The other interesting thing with regards to time travellers, is that while time travelling, at least to the future is possible, time travel to the past, is well, far less certain, mainly due to the many paradoxes etc that can develop. And in this instant, these time travellers would likely be from the future, (relative to us) and their past, ( relative to them) Still, while wormholes are still a solution of GR, (despite no evidence of them so far) backwards time travel cannot be 100% discounted. I reject the "Another hidden (deep sea or underground would be possible examples) civilization" choice as this seems to apply to our own system, and I'm pretty sure, that intelligent advanced life does not exist there, not withstanding ourselves of course on planet Earth! Simpler forms of life certainly, and probably in the oceans of Europa, the interior of Enceledus, and Titan as candidates. Another plane of existence? That apears a little bit too paranormal and supernatural for my liking. I reject it for no other reason. I concur with the highlighted part. (2) at least not into the past, and obviously that would be the case. (3) Not now, not today, but certainly one day it will be feasible, although some difficulties still to overcome, not the least being helth aspects and radiation. On another note, I would like to see Moontanman back into the fray, and hope that his pain is diminishing somewhat. Perhaps in the new year?

https://webb.nasa.gov/content/about/orbit.html Some Technical Details: It is easy for an object (like a spacecraft) at one of these five points to stay in place relative to the other two bodies (e.g., the Sun and the Earth). In fact, L4 and L5 are stable in that objects there will orbit L4 and L5 with no assistance. Some small asteroids are known to be orbiting the Sun-Earth L4 and L5 points. However, L1, L2, and L3 are metastable so objects around these points slowly drift away into their own orbits around the Sun unless they maintain their positions, for example by using small periodic rocket thrust. This is why L1, L2, and L3 don't "collect" objects like L4 and L5 do. Webb At L2 If Webb is orbiting the Sun further out than Earth, shouldn't it take more than a year to orbit the Sun? Normally yes, but the balance of the combined gravitational pull of the Sun and the Earth at the L2 point means that Webb will keep up with the Earth as it goes around the Sun. The gravitational forces of the Sun and the Earth can nearly hold a spacecraft at this point, so that it takes relatively little rocket thrust to keep the spacecraft in orbit around L2. And Webb will orbit around L2, not sit stationary precisely at L2. Webb's orbit is represented in this screenshot from our deployment video (below), roughly to scale; it is actually similar in size to the Moon's orbit around the Earth! This orbit (which takes Webb about 6 months to complete once) keeps the telescope out of the shadows of both the Earth and Moon. Unlike Hubble, which goes in and out of Earth shadow every 90 minutes, Webb will have an unimpeded view that will allow science operations 24/7. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: In summing, L2 is actually only semi stable and still needs some rocket thrust to keep it in orbit around L2. https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/754/what-is-a-lagrange-point/ "L4 and L5 correspond to hilltops and L1, L2 and L3 correspond to saddles (i.e. points where the potential is curving up in one direction and down in the other). This suggests that satellites placed at the Lagrange points will have a tendency to wander off (try sitting a marble on top of a watermelon or on top of a real saddle and you get the idea). But when a satellite parked at L4 or L5 starts to roll off the hill it picks up speed. At this point the Coriolis force comes into play - the same force that causes hurricanes to spin up on the earth - and sends the satellite into a stable orbit around the Lagrange point".

https://webb.nasa.gov/content/about/orbit.html#:~:text=Webb at L2&text=The gravitational forces of the,spacecraft in orbit around L2.

What's even more sillier, is assuming that octupuses, as intelliget as they are, are able to undertake space travel. As damn near as silly, and as arrogantto keep avoiding the OP question, due to some deep held philosophical religious nonsense. Perhaps the "human resemblance" evolutionary process, is simply the most favoured to reach advanced intelligence and associated abilities. What I mean is that while an Octupus is obviously "intelligent" it is still confined somewhat by its evolutionary path. I pick a civilisation from another planet simly because of the "near infinite" extent and content of our universe, and the stuff of life being everywhere we look.

Nothing new to see here.....same old, same old nonsensical denial of science. 😏

Sun Halo over Sweden https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap211228.html "Explanation: What's happened to the Sun? Sometimes it looks like the Sun is being viewed through a giant lens. In the featured video, however, there are actually millions of tiny lenses: ice crystals. Water may freeze in the atmosphere into small, flat, six-sided, ice crystals. As these crystals flutter to the ground, much time is spent with their faces flat and parallel to the ground. An observer may find themselves in the same plane as many of the falling ice crystals near sunrise or sunset. During this alignment, each crystal can act like a miniature lens, refracting sunlight into our view and creating phenomena like parhelia, the technical term for sundogs. The featured video was taken in late 2017 on the side of a ski hill at the Vemdalen Ski Resort in central Sweden. Visible in the center is the most direct image of the Sun, while two bright sundogs glow prominently from both the left and the right. Also visible is the bright 22 degree halo -- as well as the rarer and much fainter 46 degree halo -- also created by sunlight refracting through atmospheric ice crystals." This would be a good example of claims of UFO's/UAP's by some gullible folk or others with vivid imaginations. (actually what comes to mind is the "so called" Catholic miracle at Fatima........ As I have said many times to another UFO claimant/fanatic, the atmosphere/light can and does play amny many tricks on our eyes.

Yes, advanced intelligence. You/they are assuming no commonality for any communication. As usual, I'm still in good company. We are talking about advanced species you understand? I already have used octopuses as an example, and a reason, why any advanced intellgence that undertakes space travel, should/must be as detailed in the following quote......your continued what ifs after what ifs after more what ifs, do not cut it. I'm not saying language would never be a barrier, but any advanced species undertaking space travel, would have knowledge of the universal laws of physics and mathematics, and communication/s would probably be surmoutable. Time and distance are governed by the universal laws of physics. Here we are again, back in the twilight zone of confusion and nonsense. You do understand that the Sun is a star? a yellow dwarf G2V star? Not much more to say, as it appears you have your fingers in your ears and simply want last say on your nonsense. Sad. https://history.nasa.gov/EP-177/ch3-1.html#:~:text=Without the Sun's heat and,oxygen for life on Earth. "Nothing is more important to us on Earth than the Sun. Without the Sun's heat and light, the Earth would be a lifeless ball of ice-coated rock. The Sun warms our seas, stirs our atmosphere, generates our weather patterns, and gives energy to the growing green plants that provide the food and oxygen for life on Earth". https://earthscience.stackexchange.com/questions/4535/would-life-on-earth-survive-without-the-sun The answer is No, the Earth would not remain in any recognizable form without the Sun. There would still be a husk of a dead planet with a small amount of energy coming from the residual heat of the core which might be able to sustain chemosynthetic life in small colonies. However, this is a pretty minor amount of energy compared to what we usually receive from the sun, and without an energy input lifeforms aren't able to sustain their unusually low entropic state (i.e. entropy wins the battle with life). Some other examples of everyday things which would no longer occur (some already mentioned by @fre0n) are: There would be no seasons. There would be no weather. There would be no daytime. There would be no liquid water at the surface. The surface temperature would drop to near absolute zero ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Obviously, the above two references, more or less describe an Earth where for some reason, the Sun has disappeared or has been extinguished. And while certainly planets have been discovered without a parent star, that planet near certainly was gravitationally ejected from a stellar system, or had ungone a collision, throwing it out of its original orbital parameters. Our understanding of the formation of Planets and Stars, are that they form from the same collapsing accretion disk. It is a near certain fact, that any planet that happened to form without an original energy giving, life creating, parent star, would be one frozen lifeless lump of rock... All planets, all planetary life existing on such a planet, needs a parent star. FACT. Any life without the "direct" need of a Sun, (such as in Ocean's near deep sea vents and such) still would not exist without any parent star, at sometime during its formation. "we were all (including the elements) born in the belly of stars" Carl Sagan. OK, dimreeper, I have answerd all your "what ifs" along with links and references with regards to your claims. It appears you want the final say, while still stubbornly refusing to answer the original question. I can't change that. You have fun then playing your off topic philosophical/pseudo religious games. In essence, photosynthesis and chemosynthesis, or any other synthesis you care to name, does not, can not, take place on any planet, that did not/has not, got a parent star. Are you now going to cease playing games and answer the OP question/s?

So you have made seven posts over three years and all focused on this pet hypothesis of yours? The thing is matey, our established mainstream theories, have all needed to "run the gauntlet" of scientific critique before they are accepted. Why should your's be any different? If it at all has any validity going for it in the first place. Remember every Mother sees hew own new born as the most beautiful.

This may raise some eye brows. The Gabba, (Brisbane cricket oval) with the Pool deck opened during a International test series, on a stinking hot day....

Yeah, I'm trying to impart that fact into another head, in another thread. 😉

Having helped crewed a three masted barquentine from Panama to Sydney in 1974, I have somewhat of a love of the sea, and the awesome nature that it brings for mankind to conquer. An annual yacht race takes place on Boxing day from Sydney to Hobart, a distance of 1170 kms, crossing the notorious Bass Straight..... This year has provided some very choppy seas which has played havoc with the 86 yachts this year, seeing more then 36 yachts retire...... Some extraordinary photos on some of the yachts after leaving Sydney Harbour over the years. Sadly though, Six men died, five boats sank and 55 sailors were rescued during the 1998 spectacle when a deep depression exploded over the fleet in the Bass Strait. ......................

Rugby, (as in Union) is really only played in the Eastern states of Queensland and NSW, and even there the other Rugby, ( as in league) is far more popular. Australian Rules football is the most dominent code. I follow the Rugby League and played it in my youth. I have a couple of good pommie friends, and we all relish our turn at rubbing each other's nose in it, when that intense competition between the "Mother nation" and Australia takes place. Intense, aggressive, is as any sporting cometition should be, but at the same time charecter building and the making of lifelong friendships. The above is a photo of the 2019 series with Aussie and English players having a drink after a drawn series.