MigL

Don't worry, even IF you were rude, I'm not that easily offended, and my opinions are just as valid as anyone else's. I always question statistics. and as I implied in my previous post and Zapatos has stated, unless all other variables are isolated, there is no proof of causation, i.e. no matter how 'ugly', my assertion could be just as valid as iNow's. Sorry, my mistake, iNow did not draw any conclusions from the statistics he presented. He leaves the results open to interpretation. If you jump to a specific interpretation, instead of considering all others, then the bias is yours.

The civil war may have been 150 yrs ago, but ISIS wants to take the area of the Levant back to the 13th century. If you re-read my post, you'll note that although I have isolationist leanings, I don't advocate it as a course of action, since the US will be blamed by the rest of the world if they don't intervene. This has happened numerous times in Africa and even Europe ( more so lately ), and the 'apologists' always claim that lack of oil is the reason. However... Until the middle eastern people decide to rise up for their rights against the oppression of these terrorists, just like 1st world nations did 150 or 75 yrs ago, nothing will change. To appreciate how fragile and valuable democracy is, you have to earn it with blood. Unfortunately only tyrants and dictators can nation build ( through fear, oppression and murder ).

Going to play devil's advocate again, just for the sake of discussion. Would you agree that some of the 5x disparity ( obviously not all ), is caused by the fact that Black Americans have been, and feel themselves to be oppressed by the law. They then are more likely to fight back against this real or perceived oppressive behavior ultimately leading to more injuries ( deliberate or not ) ?

Well I don't live on your fair island, but Man U. is my team ( they had better shape up or I'm going back to watching Italian Serie A ), so I do take an interest. In your opinion,what are Cameron's chances of surviving if its a positive or very close vote ? We had a similar problem with Quebec here in a 90s referendum. Maybe the French-Canadians are more wily than the Scots. They don't actually plan to separate, but use the ongoing threat to extort government money and 'special' unconstitutional ( actually a charter, wouldn't wanna be called muddled again ) privileges from the rest of the country.

My aunt lives in Switzerland ( Zurich as a matter of fact ) as do my cousins. My dad used to work in Switzerland in the 60s prior to emigrating to Canada in 1968 from south-central Italy. Maybe Switzerland's proportional representation type of coalition government works well with their multi-party system ( maybe the Swiss are more sensible ), but it has failed miserably in Italy. Their government falls about every six months ( OK I'm slightly exaggerating ) since WW2, and they have trouble getting anything accomplished. Also I don't know if the laws are now changed, but the Swiss treated their immigrants fairly bad . There was severe discrimination against immigrants which kept them from owning property among other things. In the US, every immigrant who is here legally has the same rights as everyone else. They are all Americans. Canada is very similar, except that in the 70s, Mr Trudeau started the Multiculturalism Experiment, where we pay new immigrants to keep the culture, morals and ideals of the oppressive societies they were trying to escape from ( a ploy to get the immigrant vote ). So we now have hyphenated Canadians like French-Canadians, Italo-Canadians, Irish-Canadians, Chinese-Canadians, etc.

Latest poll is 51% to 49% in favour of independence. Stock markets are already falling to be followed by the government. This could get ugly. I blame Sean Connery, swansont.

You are right swansont, maybe the US should keep out of the middle east. Let them fight their own bloody civil war like the Americans did to further equality. Let them fight their world wars like Europe did to eliminate oppression. It would be a lot easier if the 'bleeding-heart apologists' ( just kidding ) didn't blame the US afterwards for not intervening.

"Yeah, that will really help." Yes John, it will help about as much as electing known terrorists as your representatives. Or is stupidity tolerated for Palestinians but not for Israelis ? Both cited objections were in the same example. One starts "In the lead-up to the elections" and the other "During the elections" No 'muddling' here but certainly confusion on your end. Maybe the cobwebs in your head will have cleared by the time I get back from vacation.

Yes of course, just like I didn't like the outcome of Hitler's election. I thought I made that abundantly clear. Any time 'sh*ts' who abuse their own people are put in power, by so called legitimate elections, I don't like the outcome. Should that surprise you ? They have every right to elect whomever they wish, but that doesn't diminish our rights to not like the outcome or react acoordingly, such as not legitimizing or recognizing the 'sh*ts', or by cutting aid or even by segregation like a wall. I did note that both of your cited objections to the legitimacy of the election involved so called 'wrong-doing' by Israel. As if without Israel's involvement the elections would have been a model for all democracies to follow ( extreme sarcasm ). That says something about your objectivity.

If I remember correctly, when travelling at speeds over 100 mi/hr in a train, all the air is sucked out of the train car and you suffocate. This was a common belief in the late 19th century

So there really was an Avalon ?

Then Hamas should change their charter, an official document, to reflect their new intentions. Or do you think we should just take the word of, as you put it, sh*ts ? And my point is that saying 'elections are not entirely legitimate' implies that they are at least partly legitimate. What is YOUR point, or are you going to keep changing it when called on it ?

No I would not, John. Your original statement was "You need to realise that the people who voted for them thought they were the "best available" option." So I think you may be a bit 'muddled'. Although I do agree with you that Hamas are sh*ts. Hitler was elected as the head of his party. His party had more seats than other parties in the Reichstag. Von Hindenberg reluctantly allowed him to lead a coalition government ( of course this was before he granted himself extra powers and effectively became a dictator ). How is that any different than how minority governments operate throughout the world today ? Or do you think all the world has a two party system like the US does charonY ? This is my last comment on the matter, I do hope the truce holds ( I have severe misgivings ) and hope for an eventual peace between Palestinians and Israelis.

Don't take things out of context Ten oz. The original reason for bringing up Hitler was in response to John C., who legitimizes Hamas because they have been elected by the Palestinian people. Well so was Hitler. As to your other points , you're absolutely correct, Hamas will never be a Hitler level threat. Mostly because israel will 'never again' let it be a similar threat.

Re-read that history book, CharonY. P. von Hindenburg didn' t like Hitler and didn't want to appoint him, but he had no choice as Hitler had the support. In later years after the initial overthrow of the government, even Sadam Hussein , Mohamar Gadaffi and Fidel Castro were elected, although the elections were shams. All depends on your definition of election. Not all are above board like ours ( except for Florida of course ).

The people of Germany thought Hitler was the best available option after the guilt and retributions for WW1 were imposed on them. They elected him. So.... what was your point again ?

Well, let's see. A black hole conserves mass ( or energy ), charge AND angular momentum. If a massive star is moving as it collapses to a BH,it must also conserve linear momentum. If a relativistic proton falls into a BH,all that happens is that the mass/energy/size of the evnthorizon increases by the rest mass of the proton, while the momentum ( kinetic energy part ) imparts an ever-so-slight acceleration to the BH, according to conservation laws. A star moving around the galaxy or in response to the tug of another star does not stop moving after collapse.

Influences on young people have significantly changed. When I was young I saw most fights watching Hockey ( where they also need to do something about the violence ). Today's kids are more likely influenced by video games, 'gangsta' rap and Michael Bay films where no-one ever gets hurt. I'll admit to having been in a couple of schoolyard scraps, but a few days later,you were friends again. A couple of yers ago, a few kids my nephew knew of, decided to teach another of my nephew's friends a lesson, and I suppose it was pack mentaity, but they took a hammer to him and left him in a vegetative coma. This is not in a big city, but a small town of 135000 people. We have a 'Young Offender's Act' in Canada where kids under the age of 18 aren't treated as adults. They are treated much more leniently, Jail time if any,is segregated from adults and records are sealed. I have no satisfactory answer to this problem. I would like to see justice for the victims receiving the hammerings and a message has to be sent discouraging this type of behaviour, but at the same time, recognise that sending a kid to an adult jail for an act of stupidity will make him a carreer criminal with no future and no chance at rehabilitation.

I am Roman Catholic John, non-practicing but raised and have taken all sacraments. And yes, I agree, there are fundamental, nutcase Christians who blame Jews for killing Jesus Christ. Even Popes, who supposedly represent God ( and His scriptures ) here on Earth can be nutcases. Or have you forgotten the Crusades, the 'selling' of salvation, the burnings of heretics,the inquisitions, the siding with Germans in WW2, etc. But Hamas is not a religious organization, it is supposed to be a political organization, and as such, their charter should carry considerable weight, as it is a statement of intentions, not of beliefs. It is therefore not muddled and it shouldbe considered. I withdraw my reference to the Hadith, as that IS a statement of faith.

I have to wonder though, did Ukranians actually see NATO as the threat ? Or the fact that if they became members, any furure war between east and west would no longer be decided on German soil ( as during the cold war ), but on Ukranian soil, as the 'line of scrimage' moves east.

You cannot have different results in different frames. I could be moving at near light speed right now with respect to some distant galaxy but my scale will still show the same result.

Again this is just a thought exercise to stimulate discussion ( I'm rather fond of them ). Say a few months back, when there was unrest in the Crimea and Putin announced his referendum ( options to become part of Russia or independant, none for status quo ), the Europeans still had their 'nads, and had offered the Ukraine a similar referendum to be held one week earlier than Putin's referendum; the option to become a member of NATO. If the Ukraine had accepted ( I'm sure they would have ), would Putin have been so bold in the Crimea ? Would the current problems in eastern Ukraine still be an issue ? Has Putin been enbolded by the apathy of the West and Europe in particular ? Has Europe sold its 'nads to buy cheap Russian gas ? Now that he's seen what he can get away with, how far will Putin go to re-estabilish the Soviet empire ? ...memories of Hitler re-arming Germany in the 30s, then annexing Austria, invading Checkoslovakia and finally Poland before Europe finally did something, Wil we ever learn from history ?... ( I'm not that old, but I've hit the half century mark, Besides, AJB brought up Hitler )

Independant or not, Scotland will never be a major power in the world of international soccer ( football ). But then again neither is England ! But seriously, as a Canadian having to deal with the constant whining of "the Quebecois", be careful what you wish for.

I apologized for my wrong wording John, If you choose to call that muddled, be my guest, But then I'll have to accuse you of discriminating against old people. Our discussion has become somewhat academic now,since a cease-fire has been announced along with Israel's announcing a lifting ( partial ? ) of the blockade at the Egyptian peace talks. Hamas has now grown in stature to the Palestinian people as they have won ( Hamas not the people who lost a few thousand of their family members ). All is now as it was several years ago. Israel is confident that its Iron Dome system can stop unguided rockets so they are not worried, And Hamas will use the re-opened seaport to smuggle in more weapons. But Hamas are not stupid. They will 'sell' the aid the western world sends Gaza and buy guided,lo altitude missiles or ones which climb to height only in the last phase of their flight. Missiles which Iron Dome will have a very difficult time with. Hamas will attack again and Israel'sonly option will be another blockade to stop the flow of weapons. Then Hamas will attack again. railing against the new blockade and Israel will again defend itself. And... And ( cue the school children's song )... And..."The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round". Unfortunately everytime the wheels go around, thousands of Palestinians lose their lives under them.

I enjoy our discussions Ten oz, but sometimes your logic escapes me. How do you deal with a bully ? You stand up to him, show him what you're capable of and that the consequences of his actions outweigh any gain. Or as Zapatos says, you intimidate him. Why is it wrong to reduce the situation to as simple as possible ( my opinions and approach have been termed simplistic ) in order to effectively deal with them ?