TheVat

I've heard it's quite common to hear voices or music in the sound of water. Something about the frequency range, and the cognitive fill that @Peterkin describes. Have noticed the "babbling brook" effect on several occasions. As I kid I also noticed from the back seat that engine and highway noise, on long trips, would sometimes seem to have choral singing in it. When I was a little older and saw 2001: A Space Odyssey and the black monoliths emitted those long choral notes I recognized it immediately as the singing of a 1965 Dodge Dart on the Kansas turnpike.

Har! As Al Hamilton noted, when it comes to pertinacious minorities, it's good not to allow the filibuster. Hamilton also spoke against flyspeck states like Rhode Island having equal power with the big ones, in the Senate. But he and his pals knew they couldn't get the flyspecks to join the new Union, if they didn't toss them that bone. IIRC Rhode Island and a couple other small colonies were threatening to ally with some Euro power, if they didn't get that deal. So now we're stuck with what Al called "contemptible compromises of the public good."

Alexander Hamilton, in Federalist Paper, no. 22: To give a minority a negative upon the majority (which is always the case where more than a majority is requisite to a decision), is, in its tendency, to subject the sense of the greater number to that of the lesser.… The necessity of unanimity in public bodies, or of something approaching towards it, has been founded upon a supposition that it would contribute to security. But its real operation is to embarrass the administration, to destroy the energy of the government, and to substitute the pleasure, caprice, or artifices of an insignificant, turbulent, or corrupt junto, to the regular deliberations and decisions of a respectable majority. In those emergencies of a nation, in which the goodness or badness, the weakness or strength of its government, is of the greatest importance, there is commonly a necessity for action. The public business must, in some way or other, go forward. If a pertinacious minority can control the opinion of a majority, respecting the best mode of conducting it, the majority, in order that something may be done, must conform to the views of the minority; and thus the sense of the smaller number will overrule that of the greater, and give a tone to the national proceedings. Hence, tedious delays; continual negotiation and intrigue; contemptible compromises of the public good. And yet, in such a system, it is even happy when such compromises can take place: for upon some occasions things will not admit of accommodation; and then the measures of government must be injuriously suspended, or fatally defeated. It is often, by the impracticability of obtaining the concurrence of the necessary number of votes, kept in a state of inaction. Its situation must always savor of weakness, sometimes border upon anarchy. (1787)

Hi, Jimmy. There are some therapies that are cognitive, and not pharmaceutical or ECT-based. I don't know of any that result in any quick alleviation, probably because quick fixes don't exist. And I am fairly certain there are none which don't require the training a LMHP would have. Your best course might be to contact a professional, and then see how you can help, as a friend, as that therapy progresses, provided your friend can take the first step. Depression is uniquely resistant to "coaching and encouragement," in fact that's one of the distinguishing features of clinical depression and why families and friends feel so powerless to do anything. (and also why some pharma intervention is so often on the table) Also, and I cannot stress this too strongly, some who suffer deep depression are especially vulnerable when their depression starts to diminish. So, even if you did manage to give some help, there would be critical junctures where the supervision of a pro would be vital. Some depressed patients have been known to attempt suicide, not when at the lowest point, but as they experience an increase in energy and activity. Not trying to scare you, but to underscore that this kind of mental illness ain't no place for amateurs!

@mistermack Interesting variant on the rare Earth idea. Or maybe I should say rare big brain on Earth idea. It is a possible formulation of Frank Drake's equation, where N is zero because fi is zero. I too have given some thought to that fi parameter and wondered if we tend to extrapolate badly from a single data point. There could be planets, too, where intelligence arises, but confounding factors keep it from doing anything technologically. Brilliant philosophizing parrots who can't do much with tools beyond poking sticks around. Smart apelike creatures with a metal-poor environment who never do metallurgy. And so on.

Some seem to want simple answers that satisfy their poutine-addled minds. So, here is one, the one that Bernie Sanders (the candidate I didn't have to hold my nose while voting for) offered: electoral reform. A completely level electoral process where every vote in every state has exactly the same influence, and everyone has easy access to the polls, no matter their income, location or work schedule, voting for candidates who rise or fall on their policies and ability to answer sharp questions and not on how deep their pockets are. Oddly, the (name deleted to spare the delicate feelings of those who hate partisan strife) Party had no interest in that. Could it be that when the majority know your policies stink, they won't vote for you? Could that be why only 26% of registered voters cast a vote for TFG? Maybe failure mode is needed. Let the (name deleted again, because I'm almost as nice as a Canadian) Party burn down at least part of the house, so that people will finally realize they aren't very good housekeepers. We may all end up sleeping on that hideabed in the basement that has a painful lumbar ridge, breathing ash, but at least we will know something!

(Above is an scontent file, so the post may be deleted if that file disappears. )

The P1/P2 scenario illustrated well how compromise doesn't happen. Some asks just aren't reasonable, or constitutional. This is why abortion conversations implode all the time, for example. ProChoice sees the woman's complete right to reproductive decisions as constitutionally enshrined - take away any pieces of that right and the other side is seen as trying to pick rooms to burn down. And, with gun rights, it's one block of the conservatives that feels that way. To channel the drama critic Addison DeWitt in "All About Eve," they have a point - an idiotic one, but a point. And, @J.C.MacSwell I will try to reign in my "nopes" - I see your point. And it's not idiotic.

Thanks to @Markus Hanke and @Alex_Krycek for elucidating the game theory behind Dark Forest. I was operating more from an assumption I see was hidden in my previous post, which is that civilizations without ethical constraints and the cultural mechanism to limit consumption would become nonviable and therefore never pose an existential threat beyond their own solar system. But I do see your points and agree that I cannot say absolutely "never" as regards survival to an interstellar phase. Will try to get at some of your specific points later - am dealing with that American curse, "the busy weekend."

Look into vasopressin and angiotensin. These hormones are key to what the brain does when you are dehydrated.

wow I don't think our Molson's chugging friends to the north quite realize that our Democratic Party is, by the standards of pretty much every other democratic nation on Earth, quite moderate. And has been trying to find compromise every way possible with a GOP that has moved far to the Right and now snuggles with white nationalists and Christian theocrats and bizarro science deniers. And their undertow pulls along others who should know better. Due to our flawed electoral college system, and the deeply skewed Senate (where in a few short years, the most conservative 30% of our populace will have 70% of the Senate), and a ton of gerrymandering, a minority has hijacked the political process and has little interest in real conversation about issues or compromise. FFS, we are just trying to survive as a democracy at this point. And so many of us are straining to reach out to conservatives, try to find some way to shift in their direction without abandoning whole demographics at risk, struggling to have some kind of rational fact based dialog with them that has some anchoring in the reality of the 21st century. Outside of a few places like Boston, Seattle, or San Francisco, I don't think you find that many liberals who are loftily proclaiming their wisdom and rightness or are not willing to compromise. You really have to know compromise is all we do these days. I had to vote for Biden who, in any other recent decade, would have been seen as centrist, and has not had a career I would call terribly progressive. My vote was a compromise, as were many others' votes. And anyone I vote for in South Dakota is a compromise (and I think other Red Staters would likely say the same).

IIRC, David Brin wrote a story about Von Neumann probes (which @LazyLemonLucas alluded to) from different species starting to proliferate and compete with each other, forming a sort of machine ecology in the galaxy. Will link it, if I can find it. My guess is that if Von Neumann probes were really feasible, some civilization would have sent some off by now, they would have replicated as they do, and we would be overrun by them. Unless they were designed to steer away from, say, EMF signals or other signs of nascent tech societies. Or their purpose didn't take them to inner planets. Or they're here, and responsible for all the weird UAPs. Or, (etc.) It's another category of speculation that invites the famous Enrico Fermi Question. Where are they?

I can't get behind the Dark Forest conjecture. Too many assumptions. Assumes that advanced starfaring races are greedy consumerists. Assumes that scarce resources are worth the enormous energy expenditures of traversing vast interstellar distances and decades-long or centuries-long haulage. Assumes our solar system has something that's rare elsewhere, which doesn't seem to fit with current research on exoplanets. Assumes aliens are racist dickheads* who have no moral restraint about running roughshod on us. No, I think WE are our own Dark Forest. * being aliens, I guess that could potentially be literal

Heh. I was able to steer the general public away from the grimoires. (the trial lawyers sometimes use them for jury selection)

Plus one to @mistermack for telling a good story. Cannot help but think the several pints of beer are relevant. I like the notion of dedicated pranksters waiting on lonely roads with cables and black shiny blobs they drag in front of approaching cars. Not sfartfetched at all! Weirdest experiences for me have been people I encountered, like when working in a county courthouse in my youth. I did LEXIS searches, helped the public find law books (those wanting to do their own research), and there was the occasional crackpot (this was the West Coast). One of them said I was clearly an ancient soul who had been part of the ruling class in Teotihuacan, the ancient Mesoamerican city. She said it was easy to spot people like me, and that we had special powers, and we worked behind the scenes. I said something like "wayyyy behind the scenes." Then the phone rang, and I was rescued, and also saved from the temptation of seeing if my special powers meant she had to go get me a sandwich if I asked.

I hope the group interested enough to watch are those uninformed and undecided. I'm sticking with checking paper summaries, since I followed this story, already aware of the serious crimes against democracy that were committed. To me, the big question will be if the bright lights succeed in showing enough people what a pack of lying scoundrels TFG and his minions are. Enough to keep TFG or one of puppets from pulling a Grover Cleveland.

I don't doubt that. Just addressing the subset of those who obtain such weapons because that's the only way they can perform heinous acts. Other categories of gun bearers, say Ukrainians fending off the Russian assault, may be quite brave and of amazing mental toughness. Nope. It's pretty much the Far Right. I'm American and mos def did not have any part in allowing this madness. In fact I've marched in a demonstration against lax gun laws and received insults and taunts from conservative bullies riding up and down past the marchers all along the route. While exercising my first amendment freedom, they displayed zero respect for it, and made considerable effort to intimidate us with barely veiled threats. (And THESE are the people whining about cancel culture??) At another demonstration (different theme) some of these same fine upstanding citizens shot at people with paintball guns.

I don't go in for beliefs on the whole question, just healthy skepticism. If this case is a group delusion, that doesn't invalidate the ET hypothesis. It just means this case is not relevant evidence for it. I found Brian Dunning's analysis, and scrutiny of the data, to be useful in uncovering some procedural problems. https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4760 I recommend reading all of it, to get at some of the key difficulties. John Mack's interviews, for example, seemed to be influenced by his strongly expressed beliefs in the veracity of abduction reports and other contact stories. Also punctured is the myth of the students as simple rural folk who were unfamiliar with modern media representation of UFOs and aliens. An actual look at the student demographics provided quite a contrasting picture. Again, it's a worthwhile read, if only in terms of understanding how interview data can be skewed when a researcher is looking for a certain narrative. I will be glad to see the documentary if I can find it somewhere accessible. I only ask readers here to bear in mind that bad data, no matter how tempting, has to be discarded.

No. There is a case made that the lightshow stimulated ideas of aliens landing in the minds of imaginative children, which led to games of make-believe and an imagined encounter a day or two later. Read an objective report on the procedural errors in how "witnesses" were later interviewed (and how some of the pupils, oddly, reported seeing nothing). Maybe this link has some primary sources at the bottom of the entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_School_UFO_incident My impression is that it's all a little too neat - a silvery craft, telepathic and wise aliens, an environmental message. Fits pop culture a little too well.

I think the Ariel (ha!) sighting came up in the other recent UAP thread - I may have mentioned there that it seemed to be largely debunked, given some procedural problems with the interviews (and possible coaching from a psychologist who favored the ET hypothesis) and that it followed shortly after the impressive aerial lightshow across that part of Africa put on by a Russian satellite breaking up on reentry.

Well said. Most non-ballistic weapons (except maybe the crossbow) require getting up close and personal. It is much harder to walk up to a person and stab them, than stand at some distance and basically squeeze a lever on a killing machine. For all the "patriotic" macho talk we hear from gun enthusiasts, their weapons are the tool of choice of cowards and the emotionally fragile.

This always struck me as a quaint bug in the ST premise. If one could really teleport so easily, you would think it would be scalable to greater distances (and get around lightspeed limit via "subspace"). Sticking with starships, in the scripting, was really just so that the plots could project 20th century gunboat diplomacy into the 24th century.

Court cases pivot on careful fact finding, regarding specific charges. The case was about defamation, by definition a public act of harm against reputation. A trial on abuse would be focused on private acts of harm directed to the person. Its rules of evidence would be different, and simply saying you hit someone would not be satisfying any rules of evidence - you would need CONTEXT. If someone hit someone defensively, while fending off physical attack, for example, that would not be abuse. Or there could be other circumstances which mitigated the harm - we have court trials to work out these matters, because some random people on a web forum do not have the tools for doing so.

A couple decades participating in online forums has taught me this, which I now formalize as Vat's Law: The probability of permanent forum departure is inversely proportional to the total wordcount announcing/discussing said departure. Because I would like @koti to stick around, and have valued his contributions in other threads, from time to time, I find much reassurance in the wordcount so far devoted to his departure. (I was just kidding about the fancy fonts and fridge magnets)

If aliens have developed a civilization where communicating with us is feasible, then they are technophilic like us, and we are going to have enough similarities (use of math and complex language, articulated appendages, aptitude for applying scientific methods, economic systems that allow massive technological projects like starships and/or radio astronomy) that there would be common ground. It's true we might serve, for them, as a glimpse into what might be their ancient times, and so we might chiefly interact with their anthropologists or equivalents. An analogy might be human scientists of the past couple centuries who visited stone age tribes dwelling in remote jungles and learned much about our hunter-gatherer roots from them.