Itoero

Gerard 't Hooft is mentioned in the Wikipedia page concerning 'Hidden variable theory'. "Gerard 't Hooft has disputed the validity of Bell's theorem on the basis of the superdeterminism loophole and proposed some ideas to construct local deterministic models." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_variable_theory -In his papers he for example shows a model that massless, non interacting neutrinos are deterministic. "The physical interpretation of this result is that the dynamical behaviour of a massless, chiral, non-interacting fermion is exactly like that of an infinite, flat, oriented sheet, moving with the speed of light in a direction orthogonal to the sheet." -Something interesting concerning degrees of freedom: "The degrees of freedom in terms of which we usually describe atoms, molecules, subatomic particles and their fields will be referred to as microscopic degrees of freedom. It is these that have to be described as superpositions of the sub-microscopic states, and in turn, the macroscopic states are superpositions of microscopically defined states. Perhaps the most accurate way to describe the situation is to say that the states we use to describe atoms, quantum fields, etc., serve as templates." "Information loss at the level of the underlying deterministic theory, may also explain the apparent lack of causality in the usual attempts to understand quantum mechanics" "Theories with continuous degrees of freedom would have an infinity of possible states if there were no information loss. With information loss, there may be a discrete set of limit cycles, meaning that the equivalence classes may still form discrete sets." =>This explains what I said many times...in different words obviously. With an infinity of possible states (degree of freedom) you wouldn't have a measurable difference between particles...particles like we observe them would not exist. Quantum states would randomly 'fly around'. Without what is called 'information loss', there would not be any order or structure in the universe. Information loss might explain the information paradox of Black Holes. -About Bell: "Bells inequalities appear to imply that the correlations then found cannot possibly be reconciled with a deterministic hidden variable theory. In the hidden variable theories that one then has in mind, the quantum particles are, somehow, accompanied by classical hidden variables that decide ahead of time what the outcome of any of the possible measurements will be. Clearly, Bell has shown that such hidden variable theories are unrealistic." =>This is what I also said many times. The inequalities disprove theories concerning hidden variables...they don't prove the complete absence of hidden variables.

I hope we will be able to explain the randomness. If the holographic principle is correct then we will have to explain the randomness in order to prove a quantum gravity model.

@Eise A physicist that wan the Nobel and Wolf prize backs up nearly all my claims. Seeing what kind of nonsensical questions you again asks, it's pretty clear you lack understanding to discuss this subject matter.

in trump they trust?

Science evolves and science is not science if it can't change. If they find evidence for a God then that will find it's place in the 'world of science'. In a sense, science is not about proving things, 100% proof does not exist in science. You can only 'prove' a (scientific) theory because you can't disprove it. That's why atheism is the lack of the belief in deities and not knowledge concerning the non existence of deities. Agnosticism points to the absence of knowledge.

Frank Zappa- Dancin' Fool

And on what grounds do they decide?

Georgia's Got Talent - Genadi Tkachenko This guys voice is mind blowing! The control of his vocal cords are incredible.

I want to become Dog.

I did not write it. I started the thread with: "Something I read:"

It's all about surviving...emotions allow us to live in group and find help. If we are robots like in the terminator, where do we get energy from? Solar energy and eating spinach?(a lot of iron)

Something I read: "The principle of the experiment is simple, a cat is put in a box with poison (or explosives) this box has no windows, it's COMPLETELY sound proof and there is no way to tell if the poison (or explosives) goes off. So during this time the cat is considered both dead, and alive. Can this apply to God in religion? We cannot see, we cannot hear, we cannot have any physical evidence to prove he exists or doesn't exist so in the terms of physics, he both exists and doesn't exist. And before anyone goes (We know the cat exists cause we put it in the box) Prove to me the cat exists without opening the box, the simple truth is: You do not know, without opening the box. " What do you think about this? I don't believe in a Divine force but I haven't ruled it out. I prefer to use 'Divine force' instead of 'God'. When you talk about 'God' most people immediately assume you mean a personal God...which I have ruled out.

We are part of the universe. Conscious life is imo a way for the universe to look at itself.

The main characters of 'Frozen', dancing on Gangnam Style. HILARIOUS This YouTube has atm 101.960.369 views. And the real Gangnam Style. 2.743.504.367 views....more then 2 billion...

@Eise: I mean that entanglement collapses instantly, regardless of the amount of space between the particles. That happens imo in the absence of space time. Can you describe the relationship between entangled particles to be non local causal? Gerard 't Hooft is a Dutch theoretical physicist with interesting papers concerning quantum m, holographic principle, determinism... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_%27t_Hooft This paper is called: 'Determinism beneath Quantum Mechanics' "Contrary to common belief, it is not difficult to construct deterministic models where stochastic behavior is correctly described by quantum mechanical amplitudes, in precise accordance with the Copenhagen-Bohr-Bohm doctrine. What is difficult however is to obtain a Hamiltonian that is bounded from below, and whose ground state is a vacuum that exhibits complicated vacuum fluctuations, as in the real world. " https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0212095 This paper is called: 'Quantum Gravity as a Dissipative Deterministic System' "It is argued that the so-called holographic principle will obstruct attempts to produce physically realistic models for the unification of general relativity with quantum mechanics, unless determinism in the latter is restored. The notion of time in GR is so different from the usual one in elementary particle physics that we believe that certain versions of hidden variable theories can -- and must -- be revived. A completely natural procedure is proposed, in which the dissipation of information plays an essential role." https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9903084 This paper is called: 'How a wave function can collapse without violating Schroedinger's equation, and how to understand Born's rule' "It is often claimed that the collapse of the wave function and Born's rule to interpret the square of the norm as a probability, have to be introduced as separate axioms in quantum mechanics besides the Schroedinger equation. Here we show that this is not true in certain models where quantum behavior can be attributed to underlying deterministic equations. It is argued that indeed the apparent spontaneous collapse of wave functions and Born's rule are features that strongly point towards determinism underlying quantum mechanics. " http://de.arxiv.org/abs/1112.1811 The quantum state vector(entanglement entropy) is a big bunch of hidden variables. And those variables determine the experimental probabilities that we measure. Using inequalities to prove they can't be local is imo eating soup with a fork... Inequalities disprove local hidden variables in a world governed by space time, the 'observable' quantum world. Entanglement entropy builds the space time and observable quantum world.

Correlation functions refer to entanglement. Entanglement entropy proves the presence of hidden variables in the 'correlation function'. Entanglement entropy is a measurement of quantum states (2 dimensional info) in entanglement. Paper concerning Causality & holographic entanglement entropy https://arxiv.org/abs/1408.6300

A hidden variable is any factor that influences your measurement which is unobservable/unmeasurable.. Measuring one entangled particle of a pair causes both particles to get a definite state...how can that be without hidden variables? Without hidden variables, they should be separate particles and not causal related. Measuring one particles causes the other particle to get a definite state...they are causal related. Any causal relationship demands hidden variables. -The holographic principle states that gravity in a three-dimensional volume can be described by quantum mechanics on a two-dimensional surface surrounding the volume. In particular, the three dimensions of the volume should emerge from the two dimensions of the surface. However, understanding the precise mechanics for the emergence of the volume from the surface has been elusive. -Ooguri and his collaborators have found that quantum entanglement is the key to solving this question. Using a quantum theory (that does not include gravity), they showed how to compute energy density, which is a source of gravitational interactions in three dimensions, using quantum entanglement data on the surface. It seems that the hidden variables between entangled particles are present in a 2 dimensional 'surface'. The fact that entanglement collapses seemingly a lot faster then the speed of light or instantly, shows this. It looks like entanglement doesn't take in real space.

What do you think about the holographic principle? It explains why the local hidden variables don't work and why entanglement collapses seemingly a lot faster then the speed of light. I think I read that it was (mathematically) shown to be possible.

No. In a world without religion we would have a different mindset which prevents us from being racist. You ask evidence for how the world would look like without religion???Seriously?

During this thread I made many arguments why quantum effects are deterministic. I've read about the Holographic principle and it explains my arguments. Mordred's main argument is that it's to complex to be deterministic. It's like the Irreducible complexity argument Why do you think that complexity points to indeterminism? Many people do that. This logical fallacy causes people to believe in free will. The holographic principle basically suggests that the entire universe can be seen as two-dimensional information...which causes the observable 3-dimensional world we live in.

In a world without religion, people would base themselves on facts. Then there would be no racism since racism refers to e believe not based on facts.

Since you think it's Very enlightening, it doesn't matter what I say. No. It shows that theories concerning local hidden variables don't fit with the inequalities. Quantum Superposition is in a sense the sum of 2 or more quantum states...but where do those states come from if they are not caused? I gave many arguments. And what do you think about the holographic principle? That principle fits with my arguments. But in your opinion, that's religion?

A world without religion(and spirituality) would be a world were people base themselves on facts...things that actually happened. Racism would not exist. There would still be wars but less and for different reasons. Science would stand a lot further. If you believe a god created something then you think you already know the cause for that 'something'. Science evolves via imagination, by believing in a god you place limits in that imagination. If the scientific mindset caused for a stronger evolutionary succes then I don't think there would be spirituality and religion.

Why don't you want to reply? -Your comparison with the bags and balls don't make any sense. You collapse the correlation by interacting with the balls(particles), not the bag(correlation). -Bells theorem debunks our theories concerning local hidden variables, but you claim hidden variables are 100%unnecessary so that makes bells theorem 100%unnecessary. -Why do you evoke superposition? A quantum superposition refers to two or more quantum states which are added together and form a new valid quantum state. It's related but not the same as entanglement. And superposition is not necessary a sum of all states. -If you believe that fundamental particles/quantum effects don't require hidden variables then you think nothing causes them...then nothing caused the universe? Complexity is your argument? That speaks volumes

Why don't you reply on anything I say? -Your comparison with the bags and balls don't make any sense. You collapse the correlation by interacting with the balls, not the bag. -Bells theorem debunks our theories concerning local hidden variables, but you claim hidden variables are 100%unnecessary so that makes bells theorem 100%unnecessary. -Why do you evoke superposition? A quantum superposition refers to two or more quantum states which are added together and form a new valid quantum state. It's related but not the same as entanglement. And superposition is not necessary a sum of all states. Plz answer those points, prove you have some understanding.