J.C.MacSwell

It can be. That is why you need proper context, and you certainly shouldn't assume it. It was asking a question about a future hypothetical...so if you had inferred from that that I might think the Democrats could still become blameful, I think that would be fair. Maybe. I think I make a reasonable effort to be precise. I'm no wordsmith, but I think it is more that some people are reading it with a preconceived idea of opinions i might hold. Compare it to MigL's that I put in quotes above. I have no idea how he could have made himself clearer. Is there any doubt in your mind that he blamed Trump more than anyone else? Mine was a question, so I don't think I needed to make it clear how I myself might distribute blame,

I think it is intentionally misleading. I also believe Ten oz would characterize it as lying if the equivalent was said by Trump. But it seems to get a lot of positive reinforcement around here, and negative feedback for pointing it out. ...and it takes away from a lot of otherwise good posts.

Let's look at the full quote: Note that these are questions, and directed at INow's claim that the Democrats could not be blamed in any way for the shutdown, even going forward, and his claim that he would endure significant financial hardship rather than give in to Trump. My question was with regard to INow's resolve, not a statement blaming Democrats. MigL had suggested that the Democrats still had an obligation to try to resolve the impasse. MigL said: "As far as I'm concerned, D Trump is totally responsible for the wall mess ( and many others ). Not the Democrats, nor most Republicans. However, both Democrats, and most Republicans have it in their power to help 800,000 people affected by the Government shutdown, 600,000 DACA immigrants and another 300,000 ( not my numbers, I'm assuming they're correct ) affected by the TPS extension. Instead of playing D Trump's game, why don't the Democrats release a statement saying... " We are going to do what governments are supposed to do. Help people. We, and some of our fellow Republicans are going to give in to that idiot's demands for the good of the country. We will not hold the American people hostage because of ideology or ego ( in D Trump's case ) " But that's just an opinion as I'm not one of the people affected by the government shutdown, or who could be helped by this deal. ( just wondering if anyone on this forum hasn't received any pay for the last month ) Some here will of course interpret MigL's position, with regard to blame on the impasse, very differently from any reasonable reader. Why that might be true is best Left to another thread...

You would be concerned that Trump would not hold up his end of the bargain? Wouldn't that ensure he is ousted in 2020 (if it isn't already), followed by it passing shortly after that time (regardless of who gets in would that not be most likely?)

I don't think I have made any statements blaming the Democrats, or Republicans. I certainly have with regard to Trump. I have questioned all three, mostly the Democrats and Trump as I see that as to where the impasse will most likely be broken. That would be a nice way to break it.

I was replying to a personal attack, in exactly the same manner as the attack, while being careful not to state anything misleading. You might ask yourself why you question one and not the other.

I Where have either of us even suggested that's the case? I think that's correct. Both the assumption and the logic.

Tactic. Seems to be a very consistent one.

You need to provide more than one example for "posters keep saying", unless you accidentally pluralized "poster", and by keep" you meant "once". Otherwise it was intentionally misleading. ...or is it just habitual Leftist writing with no real intent to mislead?

No. I do think it is strange. Ten oz. I'm not making any claims here (yet, but see below at my feeble attempt), outside of pointing out something that seems unanswered. I am asking questions with regard to it. You have assured me I will not find that information, that there is no real plan and therefore no link. Perhaps I will do a brief google search... In the meantime I will start with a wild conjecture that the cost of the 5.7B would reap 2.85B in value to America, admitting that it could be more and it could be less, including the outside possibility that the value could be in the negative. My assumptions are that perhaps the wall (more accurately the spending, as you have pointed out there will be costs involved that will not go directly toward the wall e.g. litigation etc.) that there will has some value, but my ignorance dictates that I can do no better at this point than splitting the difference between full value and none. This is also assuming that the wall is not in fact immoral on it's own, even if it's future use might have that potential. (which would be highly dependant on who is in office after it is built) That leaves Trumps 5.7B price tag at a net cost of 2.85B, which can be compared to the ongoing costs of the shutdown, that economists can at least estimate and on top of which other human costs can be considered. Here we have some estimates that would put the cost so far at between 5 and 10 Billion, with it going up by 200 to 400 million a day. This may admittedly be rubbish accounting, but if no one can improve upon it (I believe that is very unlikely) it is the best we have. It is not blame neutral, or blame one side or the other. It does not assess blame at all. Why do you feel compelled to make this misleading statement? Do you not feel your arguments are solid enough without it? Ten oz.possibly is operating on the Leftist platitude that accurate interpretation of the words from anyone the perceive to be on the right of them is wholly unnecessary, and that the case for Leftist argument can be best built with deceit. Another possibility is that he continuously makes honest errors when reading, and it just coincidently falls in one direction. I don't remember blaming the 800,000 currently without paychecks, but will apologize profusely if I have unintentionally done so.

I certainly have no real answer to your question, nor am I pretending anything. All I have is questions on that myself. I think that is part of the 5.7 billion dollar question. Can this be put in economic terms? What is the dollar value of the what they should allow? What good is that much spending in dollars...say any residual value of that spending? . Ten oz has at least explained why he can't ascertain any value to Trumps potential spending of that 5.7B, So no one seems to have any idea of an answer in concrete terms. (or steel, or litigation etc) OTOH there have been attempts to put the cost of the shutdown in dollar terms. But maybe no one can really summarize the whole of it in this manner, and it is best left to hand waving arguments, hopefully at least based on the most objective evidence...and then "may the best rhetoric win"?

Not suggesting less blame to Trump, but say, additional to Trump, and finally some to the Democrats as well? If only for goading Trump and leaving him no "egomaniacal room" whatsoever?

Easy to say that. What if you had been struggling with your bills, through no fault of your own, prior to the shutdown?

OK. The cost is 5.7. My question is what is the value of it being built. Assuming it is less valuable than 5.7. Does it have any value whatsoever? Is it truly a liability...have negative value? Any guesstimates? I suspect few would even hazard one...because the shutdown is all about posturing and politics...and little to do with the economics

I don't know. This was one of the reasons I asked what the value was of 5.3 Billion cost of "wall". There seems to be some consensus here that the money could be better spent. So is it worth only 3 billion? 1 Billion? Truly a negative number? (using the odd assumption that it was evil, racist or immoral) What is the net cost vs value of giving Trump 5.3 Billion toward "wall". how does that compare to the ongoing cost of the shutdown? I really don't have much more to add than "split the difference" and get on with governing, or either side should yield and get on with it, but I do think any of those options are better than doing nothing and allowing the shutdown to continue, which is only better if building a "wall" is worse. So I don't know. I don't know if anyone here can reasonably answer the question either. "What is the value of the building of the wall?" (5.3 cost of it, not wall across the whole border...which was silly 3 years ago, and remains so today) If the question does not matter then I am of the opinion that it is just a game for both sides (not suggesting equally, so spare me the "false equivalency") So there's my $0.02...and I admit it is overpriced....but you asked

It shouldn't be. But if someone accused you of something I think it is fair for you to reply to it. You seem to forget how recently you did just that (hint: climate change)

I didn't suggest it was. Unless you just crawled out from under a rock I don't believe I need to give you any real examples.

It is hardly irrelevant to responding to an accusation that I'm on the far right. You don't seem to consider yourself a racist at home in San Diego. Are you one when you visit Mexico? How about if you visited Australia? Outside of obvious jokes, my statements reflect my views,. Any questions I ask may not. I'm not questioning anyone here with regard to far right positions. I simply don't recognize anyone here as being that.

If two parties went at each other like the 2 in the US have lately, the third party would have a field day...and rightfully so.

Frankly, I think it is silly considering me on the "far right", regardless of which countries issues we are discussing. Anyone doing so honestly, is so far left that they have taken on some extreme right values IMO, and are unable to recognize a moderate view. I certainly agree with that. Yes. I don't fully agree.

Yes. I'm less certain of the bold, but would agree. I would also agree with the Democrats allowing some concessions to Trump, for the purpose of breaking the stalemate.

I might agree with it as well. Maybe I do "represent" the far right to many here. In Canada I am generally considered a Liberal, but have also vote Conservative and a couple of times NDP. While growing up, all 3 of these parties were considered Left of the US Democratic party.

I don't think it is the obvious solution. I think Trump has somewhat painted himself into a corner, and I don't think the Democrats are very anxious to give him much room. I have nothing against him simply signing off on it. I just don't think it will happen in that manner.

I think a lot of Leftists might agree with that.

Under that definition I have no bias...but I assure you by proper definition I do.