Gravity waves and the aether

[ajb]

Is there any connection to the cosmic microwave background radiation?

Other than the CMBR is electromagnetic radiation, I don't think so.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Other than the CMBR is electromagnetic radiation, I don't think so.

.

 

That's it , . That is it !

 

Could it have been produced by the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation , that huge expanding initial Energy Wham ? Set up the Hugh Electro Magnetic Field ?

 

Somebody say Yes !

 

Then I have my origination of this giant - Electro Magnetic Field - Medium - ?

 

Please say Yes ! somebody somewhere ! Say YES ? ..please

 

Mike

Edited June 21, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[ajb]

Now I have a new problem , what is providing and sustaining the humongous Electro Magnetic Field , throughout all of space ... ?

We just take these fields as part of the 'data' of the Universe, the electromagnetic field is everywhere. That does not mean that classically it is 'excited' and the classical field strength can be near zero far away from any sources. But the idea is that it is everywhere, not truly excluded from any part of the Universe. You should then ask the same question of all the fields in the standard model, including for example the electron field.

 

As already mentioned, we do have the notion of 'external sources' of the electromagnetic field; these are charged particles.

 

However, when it comes to quantum field theory the notion of the field, sources and so on becomes a bit more complicated... but the basic idea is the same. The quantum field is to be found throught the Universe.

[Strange]

.

 

That's it , . That is it !

 

Could it have been produced by the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation , that huge expanding initial Energy Wham ? Set up the Hugh Electro Magnetic Field ?

 

 

No. As ajb says, the CMB is just radiation so it required the field to be there. We are also confident that there was electromagnetic radiation for the 350000 years before the CMB was released.

[ajb]

Please say Yes ! somebody somewhere ! Say YES ?

No. The electromagnetic force was present in the Unievrse before the recombination epoch. It was just that before hydrogen atoms were formed the mean free path of a photon was small and so the Universe was opaque.

[Strange]

Like is it ( EXUDED ) by all the other stuff in space , ( like dust, point charges, Higgs, gravitational field, or whatever ? )

 

You mention the Higgs field - do you have a similar problem with that existing everywhere? And all the other fields?

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

No. As ajb says, the CMB is just radiation so it required the field to be there. We are also confident that there was electromagnetic radiation for the 350000 years before the CMB was released.

Yes , but in there somewhere, before the " cosmic microwave background radiation " appeared 350,000 years after the initial 'wham ' .in there somewhere , which I know we can't see in there very well, if at all . That's where the tremendous energy was , capable of producing this initiation of the Electro Magnetic Field that would A) support the CMBR itself and later become the Electro Magnetic Field , that currently fills all space .

 

Eureka ! That's where it came from !

 

Where has that Daecon chap gone ?

 

Mike

Edited June 21, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[ajb]

Producing it from what?

 

 

(Mod questions of electroweak unification for now )

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Producing it from what?(Mod questions of electroweak unification for now )

.

 

 

From all the turmoil that was going on inside the - Cosmic Background Microwave Radiation - from time zero to the 350,000 year recombination event .

 

Like a super massive ' Jack in the box ' of universe construction events !

 

Mike

 

Hey , what fun !

 

Edited June 21, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[ajb]

I have no idea how to turn what you have said into meaningful physics... sorry Mike.

[Mordred]

Mike your still missing several key aspects. First off you need to understand what is meant by a field. In essence a field assigns a physical value to every point in space. This value can be scalar, vector, a coordinate, an action or event, spinors etc.

 

Now lets take a huge volume and add two charged particles. Keep in mind the following a particle makes a field, and a field acts on another particle.

 

Now we know from the coupling constant for electromagnetism that the electromagnetic force is unlimitted in distance. However the strength of the field will fall off at 1/r^2.

 

So even though the field is present its influence becomes negligant at a certain distance. Although it would be more accurate to consider the electromagnetic potential rather than the field strength. Google Aharonov Bohm effect for the reasons why.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aharonov%E2%80%93Bohm_effect

 

Obviously an electron or body of electrons

on the other side of the universe iosnt going to have any measurable effect on the magnet in your house.

 

However the range of the electromagnetic field is unlimitted. However the other detail missing is how is the exchange force from electron a transmitted to electron b. This exchange is done via virtual photons which only exist long enough to convey the exchange.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/forces/exchg.html#c1

 

 

Photons is a stable particle however virtual photons are limitted by the uncertainty principle in its mean lifetime. Even though the photon has no charge it still mediates the charge between two electrons.

 

The strong force has slightly different rules. For example as you pull a quark further away from another quark the field strength of the strong force increases rather than decrease. (Asymptotic freedom).

 

It might help to also realize that particles pop in and out of existance all the time. This includes standard model particles.

 

A photon does not require a medium to travel through. The average energy density of the universe equates to roughly 5 protons per cubic metre. Thats a vast amount of empty space. ( the particles may be virtual or real) even virtual particles will not simultaneously fill every void in that cubic metre.

 

This is where forces differ from sound waves which require a medium.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Mordred

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

I need to dwell on things for a bit !

 

I need to go back through the dark ages, through the recombination CMBR , into the inflation , quantum fluctuations and beyond !

 

Mike

 

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Edited June 21, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Mordred]

That would just confuse you more Mike. I would focus on the electromagnetic force first. Study Maxwells equations and pick up a couple good articles on QED.

 

This may or may not help

 

http://arxiv.org/abs/0810.3328 A Simple Introduction to Particle Physics

 

http://arxiv.org/abs/0908.1395 part 2

 

 

Personally I think the Feyman lectures may be of better use.

 

http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/

 

In particular volume 2

Edited June 21, 2016 by Mordred

[swansont]

 

Now I have a new problem , what is providing and sustaining the humongous Electro Magnetic Field , throughout all of space .

 

 

You have more problems than that. How do you know it's huge? How do you account for the fact that we can make ambient fields very small and still have photons passing through the region?

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

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Humm !

 

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Edited June 21, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Strange]

Humm !

 

 

What?

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

What?

.

Well you could probably answer this 'Strange ' . Irelevent , whether the field is small ,like Swansont is suggesting , or generally like Mordred is encouraging me to read up or large like we are talking about , out there in the big , outer space .

 

Is the field a real ' thing ' or just a 'mathematical construct ' that we put on a reaction that we observe ?

 

In other words if I go looking for the origins of these fields before the recombination time .

What am I looking for ( something real ) or have I already got it with me ( in my note book) , a mathematical instantaneous or series of values , measurement of electrical and magnetic field strength, for an individual moment , or series of moments of time ?

 

Mike

Edited June 21, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[imatfaal]

Mike - the origin of the cosmic microwave radiation was other radiation; it cannot be the start of a medium that allowed EMR.

 

Hot plasma gives off light and at the same time absorbs/scatters light; you have a hot mess of plasma and photons - this is expanding. As it expands it cools - this allows the protons and electrons to combine to make hydrogen; the hydrogen no longer absorbs the photons and we start to get a transparent universe. The last lot of photons created by the hot plasma is not absorbed, it is stretched over the vast time and cools from hot ultraviolet to cool microwaves - this is the fossil radiation of the CMBR. For this idea to work (and it passes all the evidentiary tests) there MUST have been EMR before recombination.

 

Your idea that the act which created the CMBR and your medium are one and the same is at odds with our current idea about the CMBR.

[Strange]

Is the field a real ' thing ' or just a 'mathematical construct ' that we put on a reaction that we observe ?

 

Who knows. How would you tell the difference?

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Mike - the origin of the cosmic microwave radiation was other radiation; it cannot be the start of a medium that allowed EMR.

 

Hot plasma gives off light and at the same time absorbs/scatters light; you have a hot mess of plasma and photons - this is expanding. As it expands it cools - this allows the protons and electrons to combine to make hydrogen; the hydrogen no longer absorbs the photons and we start to get a transparent universe. The last lot of photons created by the hot plasma is not absorbed, it is stretched over the vast time and cools from hot ultraviolet to cool microwaves - this is the fossil radiation of the CMBR. For this idea to work (and it passes all the evidentiary tests) there MUST have been EMR before recombination.

 

Your idea that the act which created the CMBR and your medium are one and the same is at odds with our current idea about the CMBR.

Yes , I do understand all that you have said . I was not suggesting that I can say how the CMBR was created. I agree with you , the EM fields must exist to allow the CMBRadiation to 'come forth' so to speak . What I was suggesting , was that , the whole furore of what was happening back then , earlier , than the emmision of the CMBR , , Would have enough energy and possible mechanisms to set up , ( if that's a correct expression for it ) the compressed ELECTRO MAGNETIC FIELD.

 

This field to either come out in advance of the CMBR or concurrent with it , and to make up the expanded EM. Field we identify as being in place across Space today ? It's a bit of a long shot .

 

Mike

[Strange]

Yes , I do understand all that you have said . I was not suggesting that I can say how the CMBR was created. I agree with you , the EM fields must exist to allow the CMBRadiation to 'come forth' so to speak . What I was suggesting , was that , the whole furore of what was happening back then , earlier , than the emmision of the CMBR , , Would have enough energy and possible mechanisms to set up , ( if that's a correct expression for it ) the compressed ELECTRO MAGNETIC FIELD.

 

The conditions before the CMB were not particularly extreme. I think we can reproduce similar conditions on Earth.

 

As ajb alluded to, there was a much earlier period when the weak field and the electromagnetic field separated out from the electroweak field. So, if you like, there is the origin of the electromagnetic field.

 

But that just pushes the question back to: where did the electroweak field that permeated all of space, come from?

[imatfaal]

...

 

But that just pushes the question back to: where did the electroweak field that permeated all of space, come from?

 

That's easy - it came from the unified field of the grand unification epoch when the strong decoupled Or is that a complete non-answer

[Strange]

 

Or is that a complete non-answer

 

Only Mike can say ...

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

The conditions before the CMB were not particularly extreme. I think we can reproduce similar conditions on Earth.

 

As ajb alluded to, there was a much earlier period when the weak field and the electromagnetic field separated out from the electroweak field. So, if you like, there is the origin of the electromagnetic field.

 

But that just pushes the question back to: where did the electroweak field that permeated all of space, come from?

.

For the moment , just getting in through that wall of CMBR , and coming to terms with what quite was going on in that period before .

 

Namely from time '0' to the transparency of the recombination when electrons combined with Hydrogen nuclei and some of the other low atomic number nuclei . ( He, Lithium ? ) , and photons set forth like the sun does nowerdays. Except a quadrillion quadrillion or so more powerful or voluminous and dense .

 

I quite like your quote " earlier period when the weak field and the electromagnetic field separated out from the electroweak field. So, if you like, there is the origin of the electromagnetic field." which you speak of above

 

.That sounds like a very likely place ( where it's coming from , and where it's going to )

 

Mike

Edited June 21, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Strange]

Except a quadrillion quadrillion or so more powerful or voluminous and dense .

 

It seems it was a lot less dense than the sun. Much less dense than the atmosphere, even. A reasonably good vacuum, in fact. Which I find rather surprising.

 

And not even that hot (about 3000K). I assume it was just the fact it was fully ionised that made it opaque.