swansont Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Things don't start or stop spinning unless there's a torque. If you can't get the first-year physics right, there is no hope anything based on it is going to be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relative Posted September 30, 2014 Author Share Posted September 30, 2014 Things don't start or stop spinning unless there's a torque. If you can't get the first-year physics right, there is no hope anything based on it is going to be right. But there would be torque by centrifugal force and direction of energy flow, A curvature of energies, it would make energy waves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewcellini Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 (edited) do you know what a torque is? how does this picture show a torque? Edited September 30, 2014 by andrewcellini Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 If the left circle is at an equilibrium and has zero friction, what force would prevent the left circle from rotating around the right circle? What force would make it rotate? Gravity acts as a force in a straight line between the centres of the bodies. It will not cause rotation (in the simple case of spherical bodies). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relative Posted September 30, 2014 Author Share Posted September 30, 2014 do you know what a torque is? how does this picture show a torque? ''Torque, moment or moment of force (see the terminology below) is the tendency of a force to rotate an object about an axis, fulcrum, or pivot. Just as a force is a push or a pull, a torque can be thought of as a twist to an object.'' the blue squiggly lines represent energy twist, spiraled energy, point of contact is where the right circles energy meets the left circle, a rolling road of energy has such. The suns torque twists its energy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 What would cause this "energy twist"? And why do you insist on making up stuff like this? Why!!?!?!?!??? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewcellini Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 (edited) how would someone use "energy twists" to describe a torque? where is the force perpindicular to the position of the object? this is what i meant by reading one paragraph of wikipedia; you don't nearly get the full picture. Edited September 30, 2014 by andrewcellini Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relative Posted September 30, 2014 Author Share Posted September 30, 2014 What would cause this "energy twist"? And why do you insist on making up stuff like this? Why!!?!?!?!??? Whos making stuff up, i am just using current science and physics, its not my stuff, you already know most of the physics im explaining, , but do not see it. the energy twist is space time curvature, Einstein almost had it. Caused by the spin. how would someone use "energy twists" to describe a torque? where is the force perpindicular to the position of the object? this is what i meant by reading one paragraph of wikipedia; you don't nearly get the full picture. Imagine a sea of energy and we add/create a vortex, the energy would spiral, and an object that spins and gives off energy will create its own vortex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 the energy twist is space time curvature, Einstein almost had it. Caused by the spin. Do you mean Lense–Thirring precession? Imagine a sea of energy and we add/create a vortex, the energy would spiral, and an object that spins and gives off energy will create its own vortex. That's the trouble, you rely on imagination rather than knowledge. That is what I mean by making things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relative Posted September 30, 2014 Author Share Posted September 30, 2014 Centripetal creating inward spirals, centrifugal expanding inward spirals Do you mean Lense–Thirring precession? That's the trouble, you rely on imagination rather than knowledge. That is what I mean by making things up. i will look that up , one min... Centripetal creating inward spirals, centrifugal expanding inward spirals i will look that up , one min... No, I do not think I mean that, unless i do not understand that. Turbulence energy flow by motion.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Maybe you are thinking of objects in water. Maybe if you spin one object in water, it might cause currents that will cause another object to move or spin. I really don't know. But gravity doesn't work like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 But there would be torque by centrifugal force and direction of energy flow, It is left as an exercise for the student to show that the torque is identically zero for a centrifugal (or centripetal) force acting on a spherically symmetric body. (it's basically two steps to show this) i am just using current science and physics No, really, you aren't. What you're using is current physics terminology, but that's as far as the resemblance goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relative Posted September 30, 2014 Author Share Posted September 30, 2014 Maybe you are thinking of objects in water. Maybe if you spin one object in water, it might cause currents that will cause another object to move or spin. I really don't know. But gravity doesn't work like that.all Water is a good comparison, however water needs much more F to vortex because of friction, viscosity etc, A ball underwater spinning will create a south and north vortex, and a central body of flow. So a sun in space spinning with no friction should vortex its own energy, by use of its own acting forces? It is left as an exercise for the student to show that the torque is identically zero for a centrifugal (or centripetal) force acting on a spherically symmetric body. (it's basically two steps to show this) No, really, you aren't. What you're using is current physics terminology, but that's as far as the resemblance goes. I will try to work out what you just asked me to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 So a sun in space spinning with no friction should vortex its own energy, by use of its own acting forces? No. You are making stuff up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imatfaal Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 ! Moderator Note Last Chance - Get back to real Science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relative Posted September 30, 2014 Author Share Posted September 30, 2014 ''It is left as an exercise for the student to show that the torque is identically zero for a centrifugal (or centripetal) force acting on a spherically symmetric body. (it's basically two steps to show this)'' Two steps been?, hint please, I have looked at torque, T=RF, but am at a loss. Do you mean the equilibrium i mention , two forces acting has zero? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Water is a good comparison, however water needs much more F to vortex because of friction, viscosity etc, A ball underwater spinning will create a south and north vortex, and a central body of flow. So a sun in space spinning with no friction should vortex its own energy, by use of its own acting forces? A ball underwater is in water. The vortex is water. What would the sun's purported vortex consist of? Energy isn't a substance. ''It is left as an exercise for the student to show that the torque is identically zero for a centrifugal (or centripetal) force acting on a spherically symmetric body. (it's basically two steps to show this)'' Two steps been?, hint please, I have looked at torque, T=RF, but am at a loss. Do you mean the equilibrium i mention , two forces acting has zero? Torque is a dot cross product, so it's RF sin(theta) (step 1). For a centripetal or centrifugal force, the direction is along R, by definition. Thus sin(theta) is zero (step two) and there is no torque. Q.E.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imatfaal Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 surely torque equals r cross F[latex]\tau = \vec{r} \times \vec{F}[/latex]but it still holds that[latex]\left \| \tau \right \| =\left \| \vec{r}\right \| \left \| \vec{F} \right \| \sin \theta[/latex] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relative Posted September 30, 2014 Author Share Posted September 30, 2014 surely torque equals r cross F [latex]\tau = \vec{r} \times \vec{F}[/latex] I missed out the x sorry , my mistake. ''A ball underwater is in water. The vortex is water. What would the sun's purported vortex consist of? Energy isn't a substance.'' Does energy not have a force? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 surely torque equals r cross F [latex]\tau = \vec{r} \times \vec{F}[/latex] but it still holds that [latex]\left \| \tau \right \| =\left \| \vec{r}\right \| \left \| \vec{F} \right \| \sin \theta[/latex] Gah. Massive brainfart. Mea culpa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imatfaal Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Even I nod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Does energy not have a force? Energy and force are separate concepts. Some effects that transfer energy may exert a force, and some forces will transfer energy, but it depends on the details of the interaction. Force is a vector while energy is a scalar. "It should vortex its energy" is nonsensical. Again, this is first-semester physics here. Studying that would pay huge dividends in heading off these conceptual dead-ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relative Posted September 30, 2014 Author Share Posted September 30, 2014 (edited) Energy and force are separate concepts. Some effects that transfer energy may exert a force, and some forces will transfer energy, but it depends on the details of the interaction. Force is a vector while energy is a scalar. "It should vortex its energy" is nonsensical. Again, this is first-semester physics here. Studying that would pay huge dividends in heading off these conceptual dead-ends. ''In physics, energy is a property of objects'', the sun releases energy in the form of emr, would the objects be Photons? and if so , what about the invisible spectrum, radio waves etc? These waves clearly have energy, do they have force? Is energy not a process created by an object, or put into a object? Edited September 30, 2014 by Relative Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensei Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Sun releases 1367 Joules of energy per 1 m^2 of Earth surface per second. If we assume photon with wavelength 532 nm is average, it has energy: E=6.62607*10^-34 * 299792458 / 532*10^-9 = 3.734*10^-19 J And there will be 1367 J / 3.734*10^-19 J = 3.66*10^21 photons per second per meter square of Earth surface. Photons have momentum p=E/c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 ''In physics, energy is a property of objects'', the sun releases energy in the form of emr, would the objects be Photons? and if so , what about the invisible spectrum, radio waves etc? These waves clearly have energy, do they have force? Is energy not a process created by an object, or put into a object? EMR (at any part of the spectrum) is photons; photons are the quanta of EMR. Photons have energy and will exert a force when absorbed or scattered. It is incorrect to say that the energy exerts the force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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