Modern mammals vs Dinosaurs

[Moontanman]

I like a British TV program called "Primeval" in this show rifts in time allow animals from various eras to invade the present. In this show usually only one or two animals come through and are dealt with in various ways.

 

The animals from the past are generally shown to be too dangerous for modern animals to deal with them but I wonder if that is true.

 

During the time of the dinosaurs there were no modern type Mammals and the mammals that were alive were easily dominated by dinosaurs.

 

If the two ecosystems were truly mixed in some way would Mammals beat out the dinosaurs or would dinosaurs reclaim their dominance?

 

I think dinosaurs would be at a big disadvantage over time due to laying eggs and the fact that modern mammals are more powerful than the mammals the dinosaurs lived with...

 

In one of the Jurassic park novelizations they strongly indicated that dinosaurs had migrated to the mainland and were slowly taking over. Would size prevail or mammal sophistication?

[SamBridge]

You do have a point, but it is somewhat predicted that mammals even such as primates would hardly be around if dinosaurs were still around. That said, do you think a bear is more powerful than a group of 2-3 velociraptors? Do you think any known mammal is going to mess with a herd or even a single brontosaurus? Animals like lions and tigers would be the ones to challenge dinosaurs but only the ones around their size and up to the size of an elephant, and frankly land mammals can't evolve to be as big and mobile as larger dinosaurs because their metabolism would be too high. But if dinosaurs were still around, we don't really know what mammals would still be here anyway, except for maybe ground mammals.

Edited May 8, 2014 by SamBridge

[dimreepr]

I think it depends on what you consider ‘dominance’ and whether you include humans in the mix; for instance can we honestly say we have dominance over rats or cockroaches?

I suspect the larger dinosaurs would have no predators other than humans, but I think we should look to the oceans to see where the hottest competition, possibly, would occur; a pod of killer whales, for instance, would be difficult to de-throne.

[Delta1212]

You do have a point, but it is somewhat predicted that mammals even such as primates would hardly be around if dinosaurs were still around. That said, do you think a bear is more powerful than a group of 2-3 velociraptors? Do you think any known mammal is going to mess with a herd or even a single brontosaurus? Animals like lions and tigers would be the ones to challenge dinosaurs but only the ones around their size and up to the size of an elephant, and frankly land mammals can't evolve to be as big and mobile as larger dinosaurs because their metabolism would be too high. But if dinosaurs were still around, we don't really know what mammals would still be here anyway, except for maybe ground mammals.

In fairness, no animal in the history of the Earth has ever messed with a brontosaurus and lived.

[Greg H.]

I think I just figured out a wy to control the excess deer population. All I need are a pack of velocirators and an Abrams tank.

[Phi for All]

If we use the Primeval concept, where dinosaur(s) from a specific era pop into our modern world, I think we can focus this discussion. Otherwise we're arguing completely different things.

 

I also think, for these purposes, we can say that the rifts we're talking about happen in areas with no human inhabitants, but varied other animal populations. Sound fair?

 

I'd love to see a wolf pack adapt to various dino prey. A pride of lions working in cooperation is pretty amazing too.

[Moontanman]

In one episode a huge flock of pterosaurs came though, this what made me start this train of thought. Obviously one T-rex isn't going to reproduce so any damage he might do would be limited.

 

To Primeval's credit the creatures that come though are often just annoying rather than dangerous, If it was US based every incursion would be a T-rex.

 

I think that modern mammals would give a good account of themselves over time. Lions could certainly kill small dinosaurs and babies of larger ones.

 

I think the dinosaurs egg laying would be their Achilles heel, one sauropod gravid with eggs would simply lay them and walk away, a passing honey badger would make short work of them.

 

A Kodiak bear is quite formidable as a predator, it would be interesting to see how one would handle a moderately sized predatory dino...

 

I'm not sure but I think I read where some dinosaurs were pack hunters as well.

[SamBridge]

In fairness, no animal in the history of the Earth has ever messed with a brontosaurus and lived.

Then that just shows brontosauruses would still remain unchallenged if they lived today...by both other dinosaurs AND mammals.

 

I think I just figured out a wy to control the excess deer population. All I need are a pack of velocirators and an Abrams tank.

Until velociraptors start uncontrollably reproducing because of adaptive and smart they are for surviving,

 

In one episode a huge flock of pterosaurs came though, this what made me start this train of thought. Obviously one T-rex isn't going to reproduce so any damage he might do would be limited.

 

To Primeval's credit the creatures that come though are often just annoying rather than dangerous, If it was US based every incursion would be a T-rex.

 

I think that modern mammals would give a good account of themselves over time. Lions could certainly kill small dinosaurs and babies of larger ones.

 

I think the dinosaurs egg laying would be their Achilles heel, one sauropod gravid with eggs would simply lay them and walk away, a passing honey badger would make short work of them.

 

A Kodiak bear is quite formidable as a predator, it would be interesting to see how one would handle a moderately sized predatory dino...

 

I'm not sure but I think I read where some dinosaurs were pack hunters as well.

I would not recommend using some pop-culture TV show as the basis for any scientific venture.

[J.C.MacSwell]

I think Homo Sapiens might have a few weapons at their disposal that could take care of them.

[SamBridge]

I think Homo Sapiens might have a few weapons at their disposal that could take care of them.

Read post #6.

[Phi for All]

I would not recommend using some pop-culture TV show as the basis for any scientific venture.

 

This misses the point completely. The TV show merely sets up a situation where we might discuss how modern mammals stack up against dinosaurs from different eras. We could just as easily use the premise that modern mammals are somehow transported to various earlier periods to encounter the dinosaurs in their own environment, only we don't have a TV show to provide the "somehow".

[dimreepr]

In fairness, no animal in the history of the Earth has ever messed with a brontosaurus and lived.

 

 

Then that just shows brontosauruses would still remain unchallenged if they lived today...by both other dinosaurs AND mammals.

Really: why not?

 

Pack hunters are more than capable of bringing down much larger prey; there’s no reason to suppose sauropods were spared, and if t-rex was such a hunter food would be so scarce as to doom them from the start in this era, although velociraptors would pose a very different threat.

 

I still maintain the fiercest competition would be in the oceans, in terms of size and intelligence; what would a humpback family be worried about? Or, as I’ve said in post #3, a pod of killer whales?

[Moontanman]

I know it's a TV show guys, just a little mind game about two completely different ecologies, during the time of dinosaurs no large mammals existed, now the only dinosaurs left are birds. I think it's interesting to wonder if dinosaurs could compete with modern mammals.

 

No such thing as a brontosaurus guys...

One of the episodes that caught my attention since invasive non native species is something NANFA is deeply concerned about was when thousands of pterosaurs came through a rift. Single animals would not be a bid deal as far as invasive species goes but thousands could establish a population if they could compete with modern birds.

[SamBridge]

 

This misses the point completely.

Except that it actually doesn't because we can imagine a scenario without a TV show that still follows patterns we scientifically measure. A TV show won't do that, but we can, we can adjust the parameters to what makes sense in our own minds, without a TV show, based on scientific knowledge.

 

Really: why not?

Because they're huge and there's not much that can actually hurt them. Whales don't have many predators, the only predators the smaller ones do have are giant squid, and even those squid don't eat blue whales.

Edited May 9, 2014 by SamBridge

[Moontanman]

 

Except that it actually doesn't because we can imagine a scenario without a TV show that still follows patterns we scientifically measure. A TV show won't do that, but we can, we can adjust the parameters to what makes sense in our own minds, without a TV show, based on scientific knowledge.

 

Because they're huge and there's not much that can actually hurt them. Whales don't have many predators, the only predators they do have are giant squid, and even those squid don't eat blue whales.

 

 

 

The TV show was just the spark for the idea, why is that such a bad thing?

[SamBridge]

 

 

The TV show was just the spark for the idea, why is that such a bad thing?

It's not, just don't use it to create the whole fire. Get some scientific wood and rational matches.

Edited May 9, 2014 by SamBridge

[dimreepr]

I think it’s fair to say, just as today, all ecological niches were filled; it’s also fair to say the introduction of most animals from, almost any previous era, would not end well for them, given that simple fact.

[Moontanman]

It's not, just don't use it to create a fire.

 

 

Throttle back a bit dude, this is the speculations section, no one expects a time rift to open and see an apatosaurus come running out...

I think it’s fair to say, just as today, all ecological niches were filled; it’s also fair to say the introduction of most animals from, almost any previous era, would not end well for them, given that simple fact.

 

When species from one ecosystem are transferred to another many time the alien organism crowds out native organisms, this has happened many times in history, from encrusting mussels in the great lakes to round gobies, carp, catfish, the list is very long...

[dimreepr]

Because they're huge and there's not much that can actually hurt them. Whales don't have many predators, the only predators the smaller ones do have are giant squid, and even those squid don't eat blue whales.

 

 

They grew that big because of predation and there's no reason to think the predators stopped growing.

[Dekan]

I'm surprised the apatosaurus took so long to run out....

[dimreepr]

 

When species from one ecosystem are transferred to another many time the alien organism crowds out native organisms, this has happened many times in history, from encrusting mussels in the great lakes to round gobies, carp, catfish, the list is very long...

 

Good point.

The only caveat is the animals you describe are of the same era.

[Moontanman]

 

Good point.

The only caveat is the animals you describe are of the same era.

 

 

I'm not sure why that is relevant, can you elaborate?

[dimreepr]

 

 

I'm not sure why that is relevant, can you elaborate?

 

As I said it’s the only caveat, but not one that’s easily ignored. I’m sure that some historical creatures can compete with their modern counterparts in terms of predation but without knowing what it is they seek or how to catch them, it would naturally limit their ability in an alien world.

[Danijel Gorupec]

When species from one ecosystem are transferred to another many time the alien organism crowds out native organisms, this has happened many times in history, from encrusting mussels in the great lakes to round gobies, carp, catfish, the list is very long...

Hmm... I was under impression that this actually happens rarely. I thought that most times the transferred species just die out without anybody noticing it. I thought that such scenario rarely happens if the niche is already taken or non-existing.... I speculate that it only looks like a probable event to us because we only notice successful cases.

 

Anyway, I believe that if we transfer an animal into environment that is different than the environment that created the animal, it is unlikely the animal will manage. Especially if the animal is as complex as a T-Rex.

[Moontanman]

Hmm... I was under impression that this actually happens rarely. I thought that most times the transferred species just die out without anybody noticing it. I thought that such scenario rarely happens if the niche is already taken or non-existing.... I speculate that it only looks like a probable event to us because we only notice successful cases.

 

Anyway, I believe that if we transfer an animal into environment that is different than the environment that created the animal, it is unlikely the animal will manage. Especially if the animal is as complex as a T-Rex.

 

Your impression is mistaken exotic animals are causing problems all over the world, from pythons in the Florida everglades to large mouth bass in Japan. Just in my area Flathead catfish and blue catfish from the Mississippi river system have caused considerable harm to the native species. Rabbits and mice in Australia, I can go on and on but it's a real problem and natives often do not fair well when exotic species are introduced. Pacu introduced on some pacific islands have actually started harming humans, hence their nickname "nut cutter"

 

Disease is yet another problem, exotics often carry disease and the native fauna suffer greatly.

 

This is even happening in the oceans, lion fish , native to pacific waters introduced in Florida have now taken over many deep reefs and wreaks all along the east coast of the USA.