Dreams.

[JustinW]

I might speculate that your most useful dreams occur during a Lucid Dreaming phase whereby you have a certain level of wakeful consciousness and consequently some proactive control over the dream's direction but be still fully immersed in a dream.

I agree. Kind of like day dreaming while you sleep. I think I remember something along the lines that people only dream at the most wakefull stage of their REM cycle.

[StringJunky]

I agree. Kind of like day dreaming while you sleep. I think I remember something along the lines that people only dream at the most wakefull stage of their REM cycle.

 

Slight but important correction: "...that people only lucid dream at the most wakefull stage of their REM cycle." This is what I understand presently also but it's been a good while since I looked into it.

[PhDwannabe]

Slight but important correction: "...that people only lucid dream at the most wakefull stage of their REM cycle." This is what I understand presently also but it's been a good while since I looked into it.

 

No, Justin's correct. The most wakeful stage of the REM cycle is, well, REM. It's closest to wakefulness, and it's when you dream--lucid or not. "Only" is a tough standard to meet--there is some evidence of non-REM dreams, but they're typically vague and even more poorly recalled than REM dreams.

[StringJunky]

No, Justin's correct. The most wakeful stage of the REM cycle is, well, REM. It's closest to wakefulness, and it's when you dream--lucid or not. "Only" is a tough standard to meet--there is some evidence of non-REM dreams, but they're typically vague and even more poorly recalled than REM dreams.

 

I stand corrected.

[DrmDoc]

i wish i had lucid dreams. my normal ones are incredibly strange though. really weird locations usually devoid of people. fountains in the sky, fruit i have never seen before. weird zeppelin like things and architectural structures. i didnt know my mind could be that creative and bizarre.

 

im not surprised theyre so strange, though. as im falling asleep my thoughts seem to spiral about and get more psychadelic, as if a chemical or something is slowly being released in my brain

If you'd like to understand what these dream images might suggest, try adding the word mental to your descriptions. For example, dream fruit becomes mental fruit, which describes something perceived as food for the mind rather than body. Dream zeppelins become mental zeppelins, which could suggest an archaic transport for one's mental efforts or aspirations. Mental fountains in the sky might suggest how you unconsciously perceive a source of inner satisfication that issues from above or beyond your level of understanding. Dreams most likely regard our unconscious mental experiences and are, therefore, more likely to interpret something mental. Although an oversimplification, adding the word mental to every key description in your dreams could bring you closer to understanding whether they have any relevance to your conscious experience. I hope this helps as well.

Edited November 29, 2011 by DrmDoc

[zapatos]

Make up your own answer, then. Everyone else does.

Pretty funny. After reading through this thread it looks like that is just about what happens.

[Swarfega]

I had my first lucid dream a while ago, and it was almost IDENTICAL to Inception. The second level was a lucid dream, and I could pretty much control everything as I saw it. The first level (after I "woke up") was out of my control, as I actually dreamt waking up. Then I woke up for real. I had my second lucid dream, which was much more vivid, while I was lying in hospital at night. I was on morphine at the time. It was actually quite scary, and I made a conscious effort to wake myself. This included throwing myself at the ground, which worked, although some sort weird physics went on when my face was inches away from the grass.

 

Recently I have been trying to induce lucid dreams in myself, although I have found it difficult, and have had no success so far. I have felt myself slip into what seems to be the conscious dream state, but I then panic, my heart rate goes up, and the sensation goes away. I never try if I'm in a bad mood, because I imagine that will just cause terrifying dreams.

 

I have had a few meaningful dreams in my time, the most vivid one happened when I was young, in a giant, multi-tiered play area. It basically told not to follow other people if I wasn't sure of myself (basically, I fell into an invisible pool with white plastic garden furniture in it after trying to follow my friends across a gap. Yes, it is weird. Yes, I still wonder to this day what the significance of the garden furniture was.)

 

Most people who talk about the subject say that lucid dreams can potentially be very scary. I have not had enough to confirm this statement, but from my initial experience in hospital (it was a short dream) I think they're probably right.

[DrmDoc]

Pretty funny. After reading through this thread it looks like that is just about what happens.

I've noticed that some who post here consider this board their private kindom and seek to discourage discussions on topics that they have precious little to offer beyond adolescent humor or a limited, unstudied, Wikipedic knowledge base. There is credible, peer reviewed science on this subject should one care to explore. I wish you well.

[PhDwannabe]

I've noticed that some who post here consider this board their private kindom and seek to discourage discussions on topics that they have precious little to offer beyond adolescent humor or a limited, unstudied, Wikipedic knowledge base. There is credible, peer reviewed science on this subject should one care to explore. I wish you well.

 

Okay.

 

If you'd like to understand what these dream images might suggest, try adding the word mental to your descriptions. For example, dream fruit becomes mental fruit, which describes something perceived as food for the mind rather than body. Dream zeppelins become mental zeppelins, which could suggest an archaic transport for one's mental efforts or aspirations. Mental fountains in the sky might suggest how you unconsciously perceive a source of inner satisfication that issues from above or beyond your level of understanding.

 

Is there credible, peer-reviewed science for that?

[DrmDoc]

Okay.

 

Is there credible, peer-reviewed science for that?

If considered in the context of what I previously wrote--that dreams are unconscious mental experiences arising from the synthesis of activations in the brain that occur amid the sleep cycle--there is most certainly peer-reviewed science. Also, on a separate note to all, I do not engage the point/reputation option on this board as I have stated elsewhere. Should anyone find their comments rated, it was not my doing. That option, as I have learned, is a meaningless popularity game that at least one particularly vindictive and ego obsessed juvenile anonymously plays here to often pit one poster against another in the mistaken belief that reputation points equal credibility. I should think that commentary enveloping substantive study encompassing many years and multiple desciplines rather than artfully appropriated Wikipedic references equal credibility. Nevertherless, should I agree or disagree with any comments here, I will express my opinion in words rather than points.

[PhDwannabe]

Sure. There's dream science. The difficulty is that I don't think it necessarily follows that this

 

dreams are unconscious mental experiences arising from the synthesis of activations in the brain that occur amid the sleep cycle--there is most certainly peer-reviewed science.

 

guarantees or even substantially supports this

 

If you'd like to understand what these dream images might suggest, try adding the word mental to your descriptions. For example, dream fruit becomes mental fruit, which describes something perceived as food for the mind rather than body.Dream zeppelins become mental zeppelins, which could suggest an archaic transport for one's mental efforts or aspirations. Mental fountains in the sky might suggest how you unconsciously perceive a source of inner satisfication that issues from above or beyond your level of understanding.

 

There are dots to be connected. Lots of them. I'm interested to see how, and with what, you connect them, between the relatively established science that we both know about, and more specific claims or ideas that seem to be a bit more extraordinary.

 

 

Also, unrelatedly:

That option, as I have learned, is a meaningless popularity game that at least one particularly vindictive and ego obsessed juvenile anonymously plays here to often pit one poster against another

Careful now. Rule 1a generally applies even when you've civilly decided not to name names. Critique ideas. Mock them, even--many deserve to be mocked. Call them names. Not persons.

[md65536]

What is their purpose according to the world of psychology?

 

Do they even need to have a purpose? Could it be just part of the brain continuing to function when it is not really needed? In that case it might be like asking "What is the purpose of a sink with a leaky faucet when no one is using it?"

 

Then the question might become "What (if any) are the advantages offered by dreams?" If there are evolutionarily significant advantages, I suppose you could say they have a purpose or developed a purpose. I don't have any clue whether dreams came "for free" along with brains, or if they evolved later as separate brain functions.

 

 

It's not hard to guess at some possible advantages offered by dreams. They offer practice for cognitive skills. They offer time to contemplate situations when there aren't more immediate things for the brain to deal with; one can simulate decisions or emotional responses to different situations, so when faced with real situations the brain already has experience dealing with similar things.

 

[Appolinaria]

I quite commonly have lucid dreams, but the instances I have garnered useful ideas from were definitely not lucid ones. (I'm too busy trying to take over the world in my lucid dreams to be bothered with mundane matters. )

 

 

Forgot to mention... I'm glad to see that this, how do I put it, slightly diabolical aspect I thought I picked up on in your other posts also transfers into your dream state. It must be really engrained in you. Impressive.

 

Do they even need to have a purpose? Could it be just part of the brain continuing to function when it is not really needed? In that case it might be like asking "What is the purpose of a sink with a leaky faucet when no one is using it?"

 

Then the question might become "What (if any) are the advantages offered by dreams?" If there are evolutionarily significant advantages, I suppose you could say they have a purpose or developed a purpose. I don't have any clue whether dreams came "for free" along with brains, or if they evolved later as separate brain functions.

 

 

It's not hard to guess at some possible advantages offered by dreams. They offer practice for cognitive skills. They offer time to contemplate situations when there aren't more immediate things for the brain to deal with; one can simulate decisions or emotional responses to different situations, so when faced with real situations the brain already has experience dealing with similar things.

 

 

That's true. I kind of just assumed they serve a purpose. I like to think I'm perfectly efficient and every part of me is intended for use, when clearly I have organs that prove otherwise. I forget that often.

[Xittenn]

It's not hard to guess at some possible advantages offered by dreams. They offer practice for cognitive skills. They offer time to contemplate situations when there aren't more immediate things for the brain to deal with; one can simulate decisions or emotional responses to different situations, so when faced with real situations the brain already has experience dealing with similar things.

 

Like the traumatizing experience of giant dream bees swarming you as a child, serving to prepare you cognitively for the reality of war, government, and power as an adult?

 

 

 

That's true. I kind of just assumed they serve a purpose. I like to think I'm perfectly efficient and every part of me is intended for use, when clearly I have organs that prove otherwise. I forget that often.

 

There is no doubt the utility of dreaming. Dreams are a revolutionary process by which the human has achieved a level of cognitive plasticity like never seen on earth before.

[DrmDoc]

There are dots to be connected. Lots of them. I'm interested to see how, and with what, you connect them, between the relatively established science that we both know about, and more specific claims or ideas that seem to be a bit more extraordinary.

 

Empirically, dreams are unconscious, mental experiences--meaning experiences that play-out in our mind amid an unconscious state. To suggest otherwise would be disengenuous; to believe otherwise is without basis in the science "we both know about." Given this general nature of dreams and dreaming, what I proposed to Appolinaria was one possible way to view the unconscious, mental effects her dream experiences likely suggested. A dream about eating fruit, for example, interprets something the dreamer believes she mentally experienced unconsciously. The whole of that experience regards something she unconsciously perceived as a mental occurrence. What possible meaning could the mental occurrence shown by consuming fruit suggest? Consumption of something she perceives as inwardly (mentally) satisfying perhaps? What I proposed to Appolinaria was that possibility.

 

 

Also, unrelatedly:

 

Careful now. Rule 1a generally applies even when you've civilly decided not to name names. Critique ideas. Mock them, even--many deserve to be mocked. Call them names. Not persons.

 

Surely an adult wouldn't select your profile, then proceed to your ongoing discussions with, apparently, the sole intent to anonymously manipulate the tenor of your amaible and constructive discussions via the negative point/reputation option. Although known to me from our initial exchanges at this discussion site, I presume from such behavior that this individual would rather remain anonymous.

Edited December 3, 2011 by DrmDoc

[PhDwannabe]

Empirically, dreams are unconscious, mental experiences--meaning experiences that play-out in our mind amid an unconscious state. To suggest otherwise would be disengenuous; to believe otherwise is without basis in the science "we both know about."

Sure. Taken as settled.

 

what I proposed to Appolinaria was one possible way to view the unconscious, mental effects her dream experiences likely suggested. A dream about eating fruit, for example, interprets something the dreamer believes she mentally experienced unconsciously. The whole of that experience regards something she unconsciously perceived as a mental occurrence. What possible meaning could the mental occurrence shown by consuming fruit suggest? Consumption of something she perceives as inwardly (mentally) satisfying perhaps? What I proposed to Appolinaria was that possibility.

Yes. Your personal extrapolations--speculations, perhaps--from basic science. Which you've not supported in a clear way. And really, to be honest, can't, since the "meaning" of a dream--or any other cognitive experience, for that matter--is not really an item of scientific study. Nor is the "meaning" of anything (depending on what we mean by "mean"), particularly those things inaccessible to minimally direct empirical observation.

 

Surely an adult wouldn't select your profile, then proceed to your ongoing discussions with, apparently, the sole intent to anonymously manipulate the tenor of your amaible and constructive discussions via the negative point/reputation option. Although known to me from our initial exchanges at this discussion site, I presume from such behavior that this individual would rather remain anonymous.

Huh?

[tar]

PhDwannabe,

 

I have spent the last year reading and musing on the "meaning" behind language.

 

And NOW you tell me, I can not arrive at the answers I seek empirically.

 

Are you quite sure about this?

 

Perhaps we should look at what we mean by meaning.

 

There may be some analogies between what we mean when we speak and think, and what we mean when we dream.

 

If language is symbols and syntax, that "stand" for something. One could say that a word "means" this thing that it is standing for. Not too far removed to consider the zepplin or the fountain, or the multilayered playground, "standing" for something...meaning something. Not words, but images and memories, and arrangements, that "act" as words would act, in whatever subconscious/unconscious conversation or engagement you are involved in, when you dream.

The rules appear to be a bit different in dreams than they are in reality. Whatever a dream is "about", may or may not be "understandable" to someone not having it. However, to the dreamer, whatever "situation" they are in, in a dream, is, I would imagine, "voiced" in a "language" that they comphrehend. At the time of the dream, in the dream, the "meanings" are probably somewhat obvious to the dreamer. Remembering the dream however, once you are awake, you may or may not remember the translation...what was standing for what. And I would guess, that to some degree, the reason why its hard to remember dreams is because they don't translate well into the established meaning of things in the waking world.

 

As Appolanaria said, dreams seem to have a high "emotional" content. And I often remember the "mood" of a dream, but none of the particulars. It couldn't have been me unzipping a cloud and finding a toaster inside...that just doesn't happen...doesn't make any sense. And why would such a thing leave me in a "satisfied" accomplished, friendly mood? I must have been dreaming about something else.

 

I am not talking about Zepplins being phalic, that is too simplictic and would "make sense" to someone that was not having the dream. I am talking about the Zepplin "meaning" whatever it is standing for in the context of the dream, for the dreamer.

 

Might not be a way to empirically settle on meaning for a particular dream. But that does not mean that a meaning was not portrayed in the dream.

 

Regards, TAR2

[DrmDoc]

Sure. Taken as settled.

 

 

Yes. Your personal extrapolations--speculations, perhaps--from basic science. Which you've not supported in a clear way. And really, to be honest, can't, since the "meaning" of a dream--or any other cognitive experience, for that matter--is not really an item of scientific study. Nor is the "meaning" of anything (depending on what we mean by "mean"), particularly those things inaccessible to minimally direct empirical observation.

 

 

Huh?

[/quote]

How early adolescents describe their dreams: a quantitative analysis

The Quantitative Study of Dreams

 

Your commentary at the beginning of this discussion thread established your position and the extent of your knowledge on this subject. Therefore, my comments were for the followers here who remain open to the subject matter.

Edited December 5, 2011 by DrmDoc

[PhDwannabe]

How early adolescents describe their dreams: a quantitative analysis

 

The study you've cited investigates self-reported dream content. Dream content can of course be investigated empirically (albeit with the substantial limitations of self-report). I wasn't talking about content; if you look above, I was talking about meaning. And I'm not sure what meaning means anyway.

[DrmDoc]

The study you've cited investigates self-reported dream content. Dream content can of course be investigated empirically (albeit with the substantial limitations of self-report). I wasn't talking about content; if you look above, I was talking about meaning. And I'm not sure what meaning means anyway.

Your comments,"And really, to be honest, can't, since the "meaning" of a dream--or any other cognitive experience, for that matter--is not really an item of scientific study," were very clear. Indeed there has been some ongoing quantitative scientific study of dream content for meaning. The links above, particularly The Quantitative Study of Dreams, stands in clear contradiction to your frankly stated position. In view of your uncertainty as to "what meaning means", I suggest, relative to dream content, a Google Scholar search on Quantitative Dream Study for your future references--if you are of serious interest. Before openly declaring a position on any aspect of this subject, I advise a search of the science, particularly the neuroscience, to everyone of sincere interest. What this science suggests about brain evolution and the nature of the active unconscious brain amid dreaming is fascinating.

Edited December 6, 2011 by DrmDoc

[PhDwannabe]

The links above, particularly The Quantitative Study of Dreams, stands in clear contradiction to your frankly stated position.

Looked at it for a few minutes. Why was it so hard to find links to studies published in high-quality peer-reviewed scientific journals on there? Tell you what, it almost makes a guy suspicious.

[DrmDoc]

Looked at it for a few minutes. Why was it so hard to find links to studies published in high-quality peer-reviewed scientific journals on there? Tell you what, it almost makes a guy suspicious.

As you well know, selecting The Quantitative Study of Dreams link is not in itself a Google Scholar search for Quantitative Dream Study. As it was originally presented, The Quantitative Study of Dreams overall and readily contradicts your prior claim regarding "...the 'meaning' of a dream--or any other cognitive experience, for that matter--is not really an item of scientific study." A Google Scholar search, as many here know and as I suggested to you, can and does provide a plethora of readily available links to the types of scholarly works you described. What's most "suspicious" here is your attempt to construe the above link as a resource other than as I originally presented. However, if pursued with sincere interest, navigating to that link's references is no more difficult, involved, or "suspicious" than at any similar science resource site. If the followers of this discussion select the links and do the scholarly searchers themselves, all I have here stated will be confirmed.

[PhDwannabe]

As it was originally presented, The Quantitative Study of Dreams overall and readily contradicts your prior claim regarding "...the 'meaning' of a dream--or any other cognitive experience, for that matter--is not really an item of scientific study."

Nah, not really. You're begging the question. What I'm saying is that the site and its content aren't particularly scientific.

[StringJunky]

Nah, not really. You're begging the question. What I'm saying is that the site and its content aren't particularly scientific.

 

One of the guys who put that site together is a research professor in psychology and sociology...had his PhD since 1962.

 

This an article by him about how to use his websites and methodology...seems quite serious and as clinically methodological as one could be in a difficult area of study:

 

http://www.asdreams.org/cyberdreams/domhoff.htm

[PhDwannabe]

One of the guys who put that site together is a research professor in psychology and sociology...had his PhD since 1962.<br style="font-size: 13px; line-height: 16px; background-color: rgb(248, 250, 252); "><br style="font-size: 13px; line-height: 16px; background-color: rgb(248, 250, 252); ">This an article by him about how to use his websites and methodology...seems quite serious and as clinically methodological as one could be in a difficult area of study:<br style="font-size: 13px; line-height: 16px; background-color: rgb(248, 250, 252); "><br style="font-size: 13px; line-height: 16px; background-color: rgb(248, 250, 252); ">http://www.asdreams....ams/domhoff.htm

 

Having a PhD makes you a scientist (and your work scientific) like standing in a garage makes you a car.

 

The website--it does look very scientific, doesn't it? It certainly takes on the form of science. Is it published in a high-quality peer-reviewed journal?

 

Why might that be important, you might ask. Why? Because science is communal. If it's not, guess what, it isn't science. It's a hobby.

 

 

 

Now, will someone tell me what it'd mean for dreams mean something, and how we'd find out?

Edited December 8, 2011 by PhDwannabe