11 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Do they demand praise, though? My knowledge of the OT is admittedly a bit sketchy, but as I recall it is people in the bible who exhort others to praise God, rather than a demand from God himself. I don't know about Islam.

Well, if memory serves, it's implied in the Ten Commandments, and those were given to Moses by God himself in Mt. Sinai, according to Exodus/Deuteronomy.

In Exodus 20, eg, you find also,

²² Then the Lord said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites this: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven: ²³ Do not make any gods to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods of silver or gods of gold.

24 “‘Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, your sheep and goats and your cattle. Wherever I cause my name to be honored, I will come to you and bless you. 25 If you make an altar of stones for me, do not build it with dressed stones, for you will defile it if you use a tool on it. 26 And do not go up to my altar on steps, or your private parts may be exposed.’

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020&version=NIV

Praising, if anything, seems to be an understatement. It is also more or less implicit elsewhere in the Bible.

As to Sunni Islam, it is believed to have existed forever in the mind of Allah and to have been only revealed to Muhammad by the angel Jibril. And many many surahs end with the words,

Surely He / Allah is All-Wise, All-Knowing.

https://quran.com/6?startingVerse=139

Or,

Surely your Lord is All-Wise, All-Knowing.

https://quran.com/6?startingVerse=128

Which is clearly a recitation or repetitive formula, and I think it hints of praising. I've only chosen that couple of examples as a sample: It's almost everywhere in the Quran!

Both things taken together would make a case for Allah himself indicating how exactly he is to be praised (according to the Sunni tradition).

I would be very surprised if Zoroastrianism didn't follow a similar pattern.

6 minutes ago, m_m said:

I read that G.K. Chesterton said that “The worst moment for an atheist is when he is really thankful and has no one to thank.”

Says a devout Catholic believer. He might as well have had an opinion on the worst moment for cattlefish. How would he know?

Something that's just occurred to me. Would the Satan and equivalents be able to Hypothetically do anything about everyone forgetting Religion? Would they want to?

2 hours ago, Eise said:

No way. False memories of what the bible really says, and giving this as an excuse to trust you:

No, you do not get respect from me on this point. And even trying to wriggle out with such an excuse:

From the Expanded Bible.

So unless you are at least 2000 years old, and can read Hebrew, no, it was not really changed since then.

I don't know why you are so hung up on this. God had done a real solid for the people who had yet to hear about Judaism and Christianity.

Edited August 14Aug 14 by HawkII

5 minutes ago, joigus said:

Says a devout Catholic believer. He might as well have had an opinion on the worst moment for cattlefish. How would he know?

What if some cow said to your face, that you are ungrateful arrogant atheist? Would you argue with a poor cow?

Words can cut as a knife. And animals don't talk, they don't deal with our ego and pride. They can't offend us.

Gratitude changes the way one lives.

3 minutes ago, m_m said:

Gratitude changes the way one lives.

Sure. Gratitude towards real people who take real interest in the well-being of others, not towards some imaginary eye in the sky.

1 minute ago, joigus said:

Sure. Gratitude towards real people who take real interest in the well-being of others, not towards some imaginary eye in the sky.

OK.

43 minutes ago, joigus said:

Well, if memory serves, it's implied in the Ten Commandments, and those were given to Moses by God himself in Mt. Sinai, according to Exodus/Deuteronomy.

In Exodus 20, eg, you find also,

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020&version=NIV

Praising, if anything, seems to be an understatement. It is also more or less implicit elsewhere in the Bible.

As to Sunni Islam, it is believed to have existed forever in the mind of Allah and to have been only revealed to Muhammad by the angel Jibril. And many many surahs end with the words,

https://quran.com/6?startingVerse=139

Or,

https://quran.com/6?startingVerse=128

Which is clearly a recitation or repetitive formula, and I think it hints of praising. I've only chosen that couple of examples as a sample: It's almost everywhere in the Quran!

Both things taken together would make a case for Allah himself indicating how exactly he is to be praised (according to the Sunni tradition).

I would be very surprised if Zoroastrianism didn't follow a similar pattern.

Says a devout Catholic believer. He might as well have had an opinion on the worst moment for cattlefish. How would he know?

Yes, the Exodus thing seems to be instructions for a form of ritual worship rather than praise per se but I see what you mean.

2 hours ago, exchemist said:

Do they demand praise, though?

Two commandments, no other gods and no worship of idols so that means praise is for Yhwh alone.

There is a line where god finds the aroma of burnt flesh pleasing too. So he likes sacrifices to him.

A different story from Amos though,

Amos 5:21

“I hate, I despise your religious festivals;
    your assemblies are a stench to me.
²² Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings,
    I will not accept them.
Though you bring choice fellowship offerings,
    I will have no regard for them.
²³ Away with the noise of your songs!
    I will not listen to the music of your harps."

11 minutes ago, pinball1970 said:

Two commandments, no other gods and no worship of idols so that means praise is for Yhwh alone.

It could just mean only listen to our teacher, bc they actually makes sense in this time and culture.

17 minutes ago, pinball1970 said:

There is a line where god finds the aroma of burnt flesh pleasing too. So he likes sacrifices to him.

A different story from Amos though,

Amos 5:21

“I hate, I despise your religious festivals;
    your assemblies are a stench to me.
²² Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings,
    I will not accept them.
Though you bring choice fellowship offerings,
    I will have no regard for them.
²³ Away with the noise of your songs!
    I will not listen to the music of your harps."

I think this approach is intellectually dishonest, if we go back far enough of course we can chery pick the part where we didn't understand the difference between coralation and causation.

They were still as smart as we are now and equally susceptible to confirmation bias, the only difference is, now we have cars and traffic light's, and a lot of people flashing their headlight's thinking that will turn the red lights to green bc whenever they're in a hurry it seemed to work.

On 8/13/2025 at 12:13 AM, HawkII said:

It's for the people who don't know God though. If they learn about God, then they can stop worshiping the Moon. Something better came along.

According to who or what? A reference would be appropriate; your comment is not based on writings I am able to find in the bible*.

*) with my rather limited knowledge about this topic

2 hours ago, Ghideon said:

According to who or what? A reference would be appropriate; your comment is not based on writings I am able to find in the bible*.

*) with my rather limited knowledge about this topic

It went on to say that people who lived and died not knowing God but worshipped the Moon would be given a free pass because they didn't know any better. I'm starting to remember it a little more.

4 hours ago, dimreepr said:

I think this approach is intellectually dishonest.

I am just quoting scripture, if you are concerned about lack of context then feel free to contextualise.

4 hours ago, dimreepr said:

of course we can chery pick

What do you want me to do? Cite a whole book? It is not my fault there are different views in the Bible. It was written by different authors at different times with different agendas.

5 hours ago, dimreepr said:

part where we didn't understand the difference between coralation and causation

No idea what that means. This is Yhwh speaking to his people as Amos penned it and he does not seem very happy with the people.

Yhwh got very angry a lot in the OT and killed a lot of people.

Edited August 14Aug 14 by pinball1970

On 8/11/2025 at 6:46 PM, joigus said:

But my feeling is gods could do nothing about that because imaginary beings are incapable of actual actions.

I think the thread question could read what would make you believe in a God.

So are you saying under no evidence would you believe or worship.

The people I’m friends with see God when finding their wife or a love one in the hospital; not a horseman on a white horse.

Belief doesn’t make it true or untrue. But it does make a difference in how you live your life.

Michio Kaku was raised as a Catholic. He is right when he said both sides are wrong: you can’t prove anything.

You don’t believe in praise. Why would you? You don’t believe in God. But praise is because you want to praise. Praise is earned.

So to answer the original question for the gods to make humans remember them they would cause joigus to praise them.

3 hours ago, Trurl said:

So are you saying under no evidence would you believe or worship.

No. I'm saying there's no such evidence.

3 hours ago, Trurl said:

You don’t believe in praise. Why would you? You don’t believe in God. But praise is because you want to praise. Praise is earned.

No. I said praising God is demanded by God himself, according to the known monotheistic narratives, which makes that god very suspicious to me in the first place, suggesting it's more a projection of primitive minds, rather than the actual presence it purports to be (who would never be that petty, IMO).

@exchemist apparently understood my point perfectly and pressed me for more clarity.

You, on the other hand, seem to be answering to points that were raised in your mind alone.

I do agree with you, though, that belief has the potential to influence the way you live. Something that's not necessarily good, by the way.

18 hours ago, pinball1970 said:

I am just quoting scripture, if you are concerned about lack of context then feel free to contextualise.

What do you want me to do? Cite a whole book? It is not my fault there are different views in the Bible. It was written by different authors at different times with different agendas.

No idea what that means. This is Yhwh speaking to his people as Amos penned it and he does not seem very happy with the people.

Yhwh got very angry a lot in the OT and killed a lot of people.

I'm not suggesting you're being intellectually dishonest, just that the approach is, but it's ironic that you chose to reply to my post in this way.

Assuming we're both atheistic, then Yhwh did nothing and Amos was disagreeing with the wisdom of the age that spawned it's imagery, by hating everything about it without trying to understand why they may have conjured such a being.

Edited August 15Aug 15 by dimreepr

8 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Assuming we're both atheistic,

Yes, I am an atheist yes and think the Bible is people trying to make sense of the world.

11 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

just that the approach is

Like I said I was just quoting.

1 minute ago, pinball1970 said:

Yes, I am an atheist yes and think the Bible is people trying to make sense of the world.

We are all products of our cultures and stoneage people are just as smart as we are now; imagine if heaven is available to all of us, now, and we don't even have to die to get there; all we have to do is be content with what we have now, and let 'it' deal with the rest...

Edited August 15Aug 15 by dimreepr

God's go-to Moon Get-out clause in action.

Google search

god gave non believers the Moon to worship

Result

Acts 7:42

New International Version
But God turned away from them and gave them over to the worship of the sun, moon and stars. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets: “’Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the wilderness, people of Israel?

Edited August 15Aug 15 by HawkII

9 minutes ago, HawkII said:

God's goto Moon Get-out clause in action.

It's so easy to become a prophet, all you've got to do is read history and learn from it... 😇

17 hours ago, HawkII said:

Result

Acts 7:42

New International Version
But God turned away from them and gave them over to the worship of the sun, moon and stars. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets: “’Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the wilderness, people of Israel?

And Acts 39-41

“But our ancestors refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt. They told Aaron, ‘Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who led us out of Egypt—we don’t know what has happened to him!’ 41That was the time they made an idol in the form of a calf. They brought sacrifices to it and reveled in what their own hands had made.

Yes, it is a punishment for people, who turned away from God. People, who didn't want to die in a desert and wanted to serve Egyptians. Idolatry

I know astrology and I can understand how this is.

Edited August 16Aug 16 by m_m

21 hours ago, HawkII said:

God's go-to Moon Get-out clause in action.

Partial credit, since it refers to people who rejected him, not people who didn’t know he existed, as you had said.

"What do people do, who don't know you exist?" God replied "I made the Moon for people to Worship"

So God did not make the moon for them to worship

On 8/14/2025 at 3:54 AM, joigus said:

'...26 And do not go up to my altar on steps, or your private parts may be exposed.’

Words that I live by.

On 8/15/2025 at 2:06 PM, HawkII said:

God's go-to Moon Get-out clause in action.

Ah, the light dawns. You have completely misconstrued the meaning of this.

What it says isGod gave them (i.e. the disbelieving people) over to the worship of the sun etc. That means God gave up with them and let them go back to their previous primitive pagan ways. (Acts 7:42 in My Jerusalem bible has "God turned away from them and abandoned them to the worship of the army of heaven".)

It emphatically does not say or imply that God "made the moon for people to worship", which is what you originally asserted.

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

Words that I live by.

LOL.

The ancients are an inexhaustible source of wisdom.

9 hours ago, swansont said:

Partial credit, since it refers to people who rejected him, not people who didn’t know he existed, as you had said.

"What do people do, who don't know you exist?" God replied "I made the Moon for people to Worship"

So God did not make the moon for them to worship

6 hours ago, exchemist said:

Ah, the light dawns. You have completely misconstrued the meaning of this.

Excuse me. You have the wrong end of the stick here.

I did read Years ago

"What do people do, who don't know you exist?" God replied "I made the Moon for people to Worship"

I am showing by showing another passage I found after Googling that God has previous. This makes what I read far more believable.

I am sorry to cast you all back into the Shadow Realm.

Boy oh boy if I could go back in time to when I read the passage that I did from the Bible that I have in my Bookcase right now I would be sure to write down the Page number.

Edited August 16Aug 16 by HawkII

42 minutes ago, HawkII said:

Excuse me. You have the wrong end of the stick here.

I did read Years ago

I am showing by showing another passage I found after Googling that God has previous. This makes what I read far more believable.

I am sorry to cast you all back into the Shadow Realm.

Boy oh boy if I could go back in time to when I read the passage that I did from the Bible that I have in my Bookcase right now I would be sure to write down the Page number.

As I say, I think you have made that up, or possibly you are imagining it.

Provide the reference and I will believe you. But not otherwise.

Edited August 16Aug 16 by exchemist