Greetings.

 By late sixties, a highly educated priest at my high school mentioned and taught in literature/hystory? class that romanticism was an italian movement originated as Rome-anti-cism.  Cannot remember what/where was the cism (church schism?)  

Can you confirm yes, no, what or never heard such ?   And if has no relation with the word 'romantic' (as in loving) ... If my memory is working.

Another in-retina from the same teacher was that 'mafia' meant "Morte alle France Italia aclama"  -- Or "Italy claims death to France" -- perhaps since the taking of Corsica?  I have consulted in several places with nothing solid.  Do you know anything about as true or not ?

[There may be grammar errors]

4 hours ago, Externet said:

Another in-retina from the same teacher was that 'mafia' meant "Morte alle France Italia aclama"  -- Or "Italy claims death to France"

"A popular theory holds that the Mafia began with the Sicilian Vespers and is an abbreviation for "Morte ai Francesi, Italia Anela!"[47] ("Italy desires the death of the French")."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Sicilian_Vespers

On Wikipedia it is mistranslated, as it should be “Death to the French, Italian breathe hard.”

IOW, such a combat saying, to warm up the soldiers to fight.

4 hours ago, Externet said:

  I have consulted in several places with nothing solid. 

The origin of all ancient words is very difficult to determine. Unless you create an acronym for yourself.

 

ps. Soldiers returning from the war, do not have a job, so they begin to commit crimes, and as they were already in one organized crime organization ("the army"), so the hierarchy and organization they have ready..

ps2. Did you try Wikipedia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia#Etymology

 

"maʿfī (معفي) = exempted. In Islamic law, jizya is the yearly tax imposed on non-Muslims residing in Muslim lands, and people who pay it are "exempted" from prosecution."

 

"maʿāfir (معافر) = the name of an Arab tribe that ruled Palermo.[14][10] The local peasants imitated these Arabs and as a result the tribe's name entered the popular lexicon. The word Mafia was then used to refer to the defenders of Palermo during the Sicilian Vespers against rule of the Capetian House of Anjou on 30 March 1282.[15]"

Since -ism is a standard suffix, I would doubt any explanation offering a conspiratory etymology

“1803, "a romantic idea," from romantic + -ism. In literature, 1823, in a French context, in reference to a movement toward medieval forms (especially in reaction to classical ones), an association now more often confined to Romanesque. The movement began in German and spread to England and France. Generalized sense of "a tendency toward romantic ideas" is recorded by 1840.”

https://www.etymonline.com/word/romanticism

Romantic does have a meaning of “in the style of Rome” as in “written in a romance language” i.e. derived from Latin

 

Now, that would not preclude a movement from adopting the word, but why would Italians adopt an English word?

38 minutes ago, swansont said:

Now, that would not preclude a movement from adopting the word, but why would Italians adopt an English word?

Even more repellent, why would the English adopt a French word?

It should be flushed down the loo... 

Thanks, gentlemen.  Can see the validity of the discussion related to the teachings.  Was Sicily and not Corsica, and Spain involved.  

I have no idea why I posted here; it was intended for the lounge.  Brain farting too often.  Please move as apropiate.

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Now, that would not preclude a movement from adopting the word, but why would Italians adopt an English word?

The Italian version of Wikipedia says something about it:

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticismo

"The term “Romanticism” derives from the English romantic (from romance, translatable into Italian as “romanzesco,” in the sense of “not real”), which in the mid-18th century indicated those literary genres, such as chivalric novels, that depicted fantastic events within a more or less accurate historical setting. Alongside this early meaning there developed and eventually prevailed in the 18th century that of “picturesque,” referring not only to what was artistically depicted, but especially to the feeling aroused by it.[3 "

(translated by AI)

 

Romanticism = unrealistic, emotional, focusing on feelings
Positivism = hard-headedness, logical drawing of conclusions, science, etc. etc.

 

Romanticism and positivism were in different countries in different years. Where Romanticism ended in the West, it was just beginning in the East.

 

In fact, this only applies to the “higher-ups.” Because most people in Europe, peasants, townsman, workers, were illiterates.

 

Edited March 9Mar 9 by Sensei

4 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Romanticism = unrealistic, emotional, focusing on feelings
Positivism = hard-headedness, logical drawing of conclusions, science, etc. etc.

I think you've missed the point of an 'ism'...

7 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I think you've missed the point of an 'ism'...

...I think you should knock yourself on the head. Romanticism and positivism are successive eras in literature.. at least in my country..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positivism

 

Edited March 9Mar 9 by Sensei

45 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Even more repellent, why would the English adopt a French word?

It should be flushed down the loo... 

“The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.”

― James D. Nicoll

 

14 minutes ago, Sensei said:

The Italian version of Wikipedia says something about it:

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticismo

"The term “Romanticism” derives from the English romantic (from romance, translatable into Italian as “romanzesco,” in the sense of “not real”), which in the mid-18th century indicated those literary genres, such as chivalric novels, that depicted fantastic events within a more or less accurate historical setting. Alongside this early meaning there developed and eventually prevailed in the 18th century that of “picturesque,” referring not only to what was artistically depicted, but especially to the feeling aroused by it.[3 "

 

Yes, that’s mentioned in the etymology link and in the etymology of romantic, but has nothing to do with the comment you quoted

1 minute ago, Sensei said:

...I think you should knock yourself on the head. Romanticism and positivism are successive eras in literature.. at least in my country..

 

My point is, you think you're ism is superior with nothing more than an empty assertion, the very definition of banging you're head against a brick wall... 😉

41 minutes ago, Externet said:

have no idea why I posted here; it was intended for the lounge.  Brain farting too often.  Please move as apropiate.

I moved it here. It’s not a lounge topic.

6 minutes ago, swansont said:

“The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.”

― James D. Nicoll

I'm not trying too, that's a French thing...

1 minute ago, dimreepr said:

My point is, you think you're ism is superior with nothing more than an empty assertion, the very definition of banging you're head against a brick wall... 😉

..so, I am reading that you don't have any point.. Right. As usual..

 

Your words do not make any sense.

 

1 minute ago, dimreepr said:

I'm not trying too, that's a French thing...

You focused on the wrong part of the quote.

  

6 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

My point is, you think you're ism is superior with nothing more than an empty assertion, the very definition of banging you're head against a brick wall... 😉

Your words do not make any sense.

I would expect something better even from ChatGPT.

Edited March 9Mar 9 by Sensei

1 minute ago, Sensei said:

..so, I am reading that you don't have any point.. Right. As usual..

 

Same tactic, ignore the point you don't understand...

2 minutes ago, swansont said:

You focused on the wrong part of the quote.

That's entirely possible...

1 minute ago, dimreepr said:

Same tactic, ignore the point you don't understand...

..but you are unable to say one sensible sentence..

 

What should I be focused on?

Just now, dimreepr said:

What should I be focused on?

..I would say sober up after Saturday's party..

 

Just now, Sensei said:

..I would say sober up after Saturday's party..

 

Good joke 'ish'... 🙄 But I was asking @swansont

10 hours ago, Externet said:

By late sixties, a highly educated priest at my high school mentioned and taught in literature/hystory? class that romanticism was an italian movement originated as Rome-anti-cism.  Cannot remember what/where was the cism (church schism?)  

I think it's more likely to be derived from some kind of Roman-antics.  

I wouldn't put too much creedence on such connections. Very likely ex-post-facto plays with words. But this is just an opinion.

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

What should I be focused on?

“We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary”

in response to your comment about English adopting a French word. Why wouldn't it? It adopts from pretty much anyone and everyone.

22 hours ago, swansont said:

“We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary”

in response to your comment about English adopting a French word. Why wouldn't it? It adopts from pretty much anyone and everyone.

Don't we all?

We all tend to adopt almost everthing, from the dominant culture, bc it's cool...

21 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Don't we all?

We all tend to adopt almost everthing, from the dominant culture, bc it's cool...

Nothing like answering both yes and no to a question. Covers all the bases!

Reminds me of the joke about the physicist who was handed a graph

”I can tell you why there’s a dip at that value. You see…”

”Professor, you’re holding it upside-down”

”Ah. I can tell you why there’s a peak at that value. You see…”

1 minute ago, swansont said:

Nothing like answering both yes and no to a question. Covers all the bases!

Well, that was the point of my joke.