Shoah

[Gian]

I was about 8 when my mum and dad told me about the Shoah. My first critical thought was something like Even if everything the National Socialists said about those of the Jewish Faith was true, it would not in any way justify the Holocaust.

How does that strike people here as an approach?

We're Catholic btw

[Genady]

It had nothing to do with faith.

[exchemist]

On 9/2/2023 at 4:34 PM, Gian said:

I was about 8 when my mum and dad told me about the Shoah. My first critical thought was something like Even if everything the National Socialists said about those of the Jewish Faith was true, it would not in any way justify the Holocaust.

How does that strike people here as an approach?

We're Catholic btw

Seems a very unremarkable reaction. Like @Genady, I don't see what being Catholic has to do with it. Just about anyone with respect for human life would be appalled.  

[geordief]

Another approach is to feel shame that any group of people in any way connected to oneself has committed  or imagined such a vile  collection of acts .

They brought shame on themselves and all who did not actively oppose them.

I can't understand why the OP  thought his or any religion was relevant ,unless they were  saying "well I am not Jewish and so am not biased in that respect "

In other words ,perhaps implying that  a Jewish person might have stronger feelings about it than others.

It is an interesting point that vile acts have also  been committed against other groups throughout history(even if the holocaust seems to have been the worst in  concept because of its sickening rationality and preparation.)

To analyse it ,whilst necessary almost seems to play into the hands of those who  admire  and seek to emulate the perpetrators.

 

What frightens me is the thought that ,whilst this  crime may have taken place in Germany  other countries might well have been willing to participate .

After all the Jews have been hounded down the centuries and Hitler may have been referring to this when he said that this  industrial mass genocide would resolve the "Jewish question" once and for all.

[mistermack]

A lot of people who find the holocaust horrible today, would have participated at the time. We're all a product of our social environment. 

I'm 73. When I was young, it would have been unthinkable that homosexual people ( the polite expression at the time ) could marry or adopt, or even hold a public position. You could hear the words "nigger" or "coon" in sitcoms, admittedly spoken by lowlife characters. But to say "fuck" on the air was unthinkable. Now you hear fuck all the time, but the racial slurs are absolutely barred, even in jest. All good stuff, but they are just examples of fundamental culture changes that are all good. 

But the people haven't changed, it's the culture that's changed. Take people born today, transport them back to the Nazi era, and they would do the same. 

Nazi Germany grew out of desperate times. People act differently under pressure. They tend to pick on anyone who stands out as different, and blame them for their problems. It's still happening in India, Bangladesh, Burma, China, and not too long ago in Northern Ireland. Those are just examples, not the whole picture. 

The common factor is human nature, it hasn't gone away, and it's not just Nazis on Jews. 

[CharonY]

1 minute ago, mistermack said:

A lot of people who find the holocaust horrible today, would have participated at the time. We're all a product of our social environment. 

I'm 73. When I was young, it would have been unthinkable that homosexual people ( the polite expression at the time ) could marry or adopt, or even hold a public position. You could hear the words "nigger" or "coon" in sitcoms, admittedly spoken by lowlife characters. But to say "fuck" on the air was unthinkable. Now you hear fuck all the time, but the racial slurs are absolutely barred, even in jest. All good stuff, but they are just examples of fundamental culture changes that are all good. 

But the people haven't changed, it's the culture that's changed. Take people born today, transport them back to the Nazi era, and they would do the same. 

Nazi Germany grew out of desperate times. People act differently under pressure. They tend to pick on anyone who stands out as different, and blame them for their problems. It's still happening in India, Bangladesh, Burma, China, and not too long ago in Northern Ireland. Those are just examples, not the whole picture. 

The common factor is human nature, it hasn't gone away, and it's not just Nazis on Jews. 

Indeed. One should add in addition to human nature, the system plays a major role. And while bad times tends to make simple populism more palatable, it is more important that folks feel threatened (regardless whether it is true or not). The migrant crisis has caused political turmoil in Europe, despite the apparently relatively modest effect (economic or otherwise) on broader society. I.e. the perceived impact was higher than the actual one. 

Also historically one of the great lessons of German education was that kids learned that Nazis were not just a bunch of bloodthirsty madmen. They were, by all accounts, regular people who operated in a system which normalized industrialized murder of people. As such, it is often easy to imagine that one would be one of the good guys, but the reality is likely going to be very different.

[TheVat]

Hannah Arendt nailed it with her phrase the banality of evil.

 

[iNow]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

I'm 73. When I was young, it would have been unthinkable that homosexual people ( the polite expression at the time ) could marry or adopt, or even hold a public position.

When you were young? Lol. That was still true a dozen years ago when you were 60. 

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

Take people born today, transport them back to the Nazi era, and they would do the same. 

Replace “people” with “most trump supporters” and we agree. 

Also DeSantis and Ramaswamy, FWIW

And whomever fits those criteria now across regions outside of the US. 

Always and in all places people have both progressed and retarded our culture. It matters what we stand for. 

What we stand UP for. And what we stand against. 

[Gian]

On 9/6/2023 at 2:19 AM, TheVat said:

Hannah Arendt nailed it with her phrase the banality of evil.

 

Im reading Hannah Arendt right now. The picture that's emerged so far is that for Adolf Eichmann and for Jews and many others in Germany at that time, it's, well... complicated.This is a surprise for me 🙄🙄🙂

[exchemist]

On 9/6/2023 at 1:29 AM, mistermack said:

A lot of people who find the holocaust horrible today, would have participated at the time. We're all a product of our social environment. 

I'm 73. When I was young, it would have been unthinkable that homosexual people ( the polite expression at the time ) could marry or adopt, or even hold a public position. You could hear the words "nigger" or "coon" in sitcoms, admittedly spoken by lowlife characters. But to say "fuck" on the air was unthinkable. Now you hear fuck all the time, but the racial slurs are absolutely barred, even in jest. All good stuff, but they are just examples of fundamental culture changes that are all good. 

But the people haven't changed, it's the culture that's changed. Take people born today, transport them back to the Nazi era, and they would do the same. 

Nazi Germany grew out of desperate times. People act differently under pressure. They tend to pick on anyone who stands out as different, and blame them for their problems. It's still happening in India, Bangladesh, Burma, China, and not too long ago in Northern Ireland. Those are just examples, not the whole picture. 

The common factor is human nature, it hasn't gone away, and it's not just Nazis on Jews. 

This was the message of Lord of the Flies, if I remember correctly. There were quite a few explorations of human nature after the war, trying to make sense of how it happened, especially in a supposedly civilised European culture. Even Dr Who revisited the idea, with the Daleks. 

[CharonY]

On 9/5/2023 at 7:49 PM, iNow said:

Replace “people” with “most trump supporters” and we agree. 

I would be careful to exclude folks who do not support Trump from that. Folks easily fall into populism traps once they feel threatened somehow (regardless of actual situation). The Far Right wannabe Nazi party in Germany is on track to become the second strongest party, despite until recently none of the established parties were willing to work with them. 

Not so long ago, that would have been unthinkable. Now at least the some leaders of the established conservative parties have been making noises that they might be open to collaboration (though partially retracted). Some historians have been alarmed by the parallels to the Weimar republic (especially letting the NSDAP to linger around after the failed coup attempt) and generally being dismayed that the memory of WWII and the holocaust seems to be fading from German consciousness.

 

[mistermack]

Ironically, Israel is now run by a very far right coalition. The Israelis are only just being held in check by having to appease the US pubic opinion, without that they would make Hitler look like a gentle soul. And up to now, the courts were a moderating influence, but that's about to change. 

[iNow]

37 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I would be careful to exclude folks who do not support Trump from that

I’d considered this when posting, but decided the issue was sufficiently lopsided to allow me to make a quick poke. I don’t disagree, though 

[TheVat]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

Ironically, Israel is now run by a very far right coalition. The Israelis are only just being held in check by having to appease the US pubic opinion, without that they would make Hitler look like a gentle soul. And up to now, the courts were a moderating influence, but that's about to change. 

I have no idea why you were neg voted on this.  Before someone neg reps me for asking this, let's consider Mack's assertions.  Israel is indeed run by a far right coalition.  The Likud Party is a RW populist and Zionist party.  This is public record.

And billions of dollars in US support do indeed provide some check on the party's more radical proposals.  

  And they do indeed want to compromise the supreme courts independence from the executive and power to render decisions through a plan thinly veiled as "reform."  And they have, by almost any standards, promoted a fascist shift in government and continued herding Palestinian Arabs off of their lands, shoving them into narrow and crowded strips of land and depriving them of freedoms, fundamental rights and economic access.  

TWIMC: Maybe knock off the neg reps and just debate the facts?

[iNow]

Wasn’t me, but rather likely related to calling Hitler a gentle soul in comparison to the modern ultra right Israeli leadership. That’s hyperbolic in the extreme and suggests a deep lack of moderation and measure in one’s tone…even though the current cabal under Bibi is hardly acting in ways I can support. 

[geordief]

2 hours ago, TheVat said:

I have no idea why you were neg voted on this.  Before someone neg reps me for asking this, let's consider Mack's assertions.  Israel is indeed run by a far right coalition.  The Likud Party is a RW populist and Zionist party.  This is public record.

And billions of dollars in US support do indeed provide some check on the party's more radical proposals.  

  And they do indeed want to compromise the supreme courts independence from the executive and power to render decisions through a plan thinly veiled as "reform."  And they have, by almost any standards, promoted a fascist shift in government and continued herding Palestinian Arabs off of their lands, shoving them into narrow and crowded strips of land and depriving them of freedoms, fundamental rights and economic access.  

TWIMC: Maybe knock off the neg reps and just debate the facts?

That's true but they have been under  attack from their neighbours  since the state was formed.

What do their neighbours expect ?That they not defend themselves?

Grossly insulting to compare their policies with that of Hitler.

Why would anyone do that?

[exchemist]

9 hours ago, mistermack said:

Ironically, Israel is now run by a very far right coalition. The Israelis are only just being held in check by having to appease the US pubic opinion, without that they would make Hitler look like a gentle soul. And up to now, the courts were a moderating influence, but that's about to change. 

The Hitler bit is hyperbole (an attack of Godwin's Law?),  but the rest I think is fair comment. One neg rep unwound. 

6 hours ago, geordief said:

That's true but they have been under  attack from their neighbours  since the state was formed.

What do their neighbours expect ?That they not defend themselves?

Grossly insulting to compare their policies with that of Hitler.

Why would anyone do that?

It is hardly a new observation that the treatment of the Palestinians by recent Israeli governments is particularly shocking, considering the experience of the Jews in the first half of the c.20th. Not only are these Arabs second class citizens but their land is being taken by force - which has unmistakable echoes of lebensraum.

One might have hoped that, of all the people in the world, the Israelis would show some understanding of that.  But apparently not, so the occasional comparison with Hitler should not be surprising (though most comparisons seem in practice to be made to apartheid era South Africa.).    

Edited September 11, 2023 by exchemist

[Genady]

2 hours ago, exchemist said:

One might have hoped that, of all the people in the world, the Israelis would show some understanding of that.  But apparently not

Is MAGA a synonym of "Americans"? Who are "the Israelis"?

I have an Israeli passport and many Israeli friends and relatives. We are "Israelis," and we have a very good understanding. Thousands of recent demonstrators against the reforms and the government have it, too. 

[exchemist]

1 hour ago, Genady said:

Is MAGA a synonym of "Americans"? Who are "the Israelis"?

I have an Israeli passport and many Israeli friends and relatives. We are "Israelis," and we have a very good understanding. Thousands of recent demonstrators against the reforms and the government have it, too. 

Slightly lazy shorthand for the government of Israel. I take your point about the distinction between that and the people (and a fortiori you of course, personally).

But Israel is (so far) a democracy, after all, so it is to some extent fair to hold the citizens accountable for the government they elect. All power to you, your friends and the demonstrators. May you prevail at the ballot box before too long. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by exchemist

[TheVat]

10 hours ago, geordief said:

That's true but they have been under  attack from their neighbours  since the state was formed.

What do their neighbours expect ?That they not defend themselves?

Grossly insulting to compare their policies with that of Hitler.

Why would anyone do that?

Agree.  Just trying to retrieve valid points from Macks post and lean toward assuming that hyperbole is part of his style.  If he really thinks Likud group is worse than Hitler, then I will revise my no-DV policy.  

I do think Israel government could chart a better course in engaging with neighbors and not condemning everyone as a terrorist.   

16 minutes ago, exchemist said:

But Israel is (so far) a democracy, after all, so it is to some extent fair to hold the citizens accountable for the government they elect. All power to you, your friends and the demonstrators. May you prevail at the ballot box before too long. 

Edited 6 minutes ago by exchemist

Yes.  The gap in democracy lies in the occupied territories where Palestinians have no right to vote, yet their lives are controlled by Israeli government.  The US has this problem (though less fraught) with Puerto Rico.  

[mistermack]

The difference between the Nazis and the current Israeli coalition is that there are external restraints on Israel, as I pointed out previously. The Nazis had a free rein, and they used it. What do you think the Israeli right would do, with a totally free hand? 

I'm pointing out facts about human nature, and how they treat fellow humans. At present, Israel is among the worst, even with the "civilising" effect of being dependent on external allies for funding and security. Right now, with all of those constraints, they are actively ethnically cleansing the place of non-jews, but just doing it far more slowly than they would like. 

The other thing to remember is that we don't get the full story of what is happening in Israel. Just as the world didn't know what the Nazis were up to. We only know what went on because the Nazis lost the war. Well, the extreme Jewish faction is in control in Israel, and they decide what you hear, and what you don't. 

[Genady]

3 hours ago, exchemist said:

All power to you, your friends and the demonstrators. May you prevail at the ballot box before too long. 

Thank you. I have the same wish but can't do more than this as there is no overseas voting in Israeli elections.

[Ken Fabian]

When people believe other people are bad then they can do horrible things to them without remorse - even feel a strong sense of satisfaction or enjoyment. What I find most disturbing about this - and it appears to be a near universal trait of humans - is that no proof they are bad is required for guilt and shame and remorse to be shortcircuited and for acts that can only be described as horrific to be acceptable. As long as we think they are guilty we can feel good about it, whether they are guilty or not and I think the worst atrocities happen like that.

[iNow]

Much as the OP did (and IIRC has done in the past)

[geordief]

5 hours ago, Ken Fabian said:

When people believe other people are bad then they can do horrible things to them without remorse - even feel a strong sense of satisfaction or enjoyment. What I find most disturbing about this - and it appears to be a near universal trait of humans - is that no proof they are bad is required for guilt and shame and remorse to be shortcircuited and for acts that can only be described as horrific to be acceptable. As long as we think they are guilty we can feel good about it, whether they are guilty or not and I think the worst atrocities happen like that.

 Is that  what a properly functioning system of laws is intended to counteract?

At least if the administration  of law is unjust it is visibly so  and any decisions should have the weight of lengthy periods of consideration. 

Is the legal system in practice a buffer against blind hatred?

 

What happened in Germany or USSR ,I wonder?Did the judges put up any resistance?

Were those who did removed from their positions or did they just go with the flow?

I imagine the legal system remained in place  and formalities were still followed .