Why "even light"?

[Genady]

5 minutes ago, Steve81 said:

my revised statement that Genady agreed with as self evident

I did not agree with that statement as self-evident. I agreed with it because I've observed kids liking science demonstrations and asking questions. However, I don't personally know one case where they went on to become interested in science.

[Steve81]

5 minutes ago, Genady said:

I did not agree with that statement as self-evident. I agreed with it because I've observed kids liking science demonstrations and asking questions. However, I don't personally know one case where they went on to become interested in science.

Thank you for providing the observational evidence that proves my point, even if you didn't intend to do so. Asking questions is interest. Providing answers lets them learn. Not every interested child will turn into a scientist of course, only a small fraction. But the more kids interested, the better.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Steve81

[Genady]

1 minute ago, Steve81 said:

Thank you for providing the observational evidence that proves my point, even if you didn't intend to do so.

The point I've agreed with, but not the point for which I've asked about evidence. That point, I still doubt about.

Anyway, I've asked, if you have evidence, and you could simply say, no, it is my opinion, or something like that.

[zapatos]

7 minutes ago, Steve81 said:

There's a handy tool, it's called Google. Find it yourself. If you find evidence to the contrary, feel free to post it, and I will retract my statement.

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought you offered to provide evidence your assertion was correct. It now seems you expect me to provide evidence regarding your assertion.

Getting snippy with me just continues your downward slide all because of a simple request for further information. I hope you lose this chip on your shoulder before you are shown the exit.

[Steve81]

1 minute ago, Genady said:

The point I've agreed with, but not the point for which I've asked about evidence. That point, I still doubt about.

Anyway, I've asked, if you have evidence, and you could simply say, no, it is my opinion, or something like that.

What point, exactly, do you think I'm trying to make? Spell it out clearly for me so I don't misunderstand please, and hopefully we can move on from this sordid business.

[Genady]

6 minutes ago, Steve81 said:

What point, exactly, do you think I'm trying to make? Spell it out clearly for me so I don't misunderstand please, and hopefully we can move on from this sordid business.

The distinction I make is between being interested in science and being interested in a cool demonstration.

[Steve81]

7 minutes ago, Genady said:

The distinction I make is between being interested in science and being interested in a cool demonstration.

Being interested in a demonstration and asking questions as you observed, is displaying an interest in science, albeit one limited to the topic of the demonstration. 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Steve81

[Genady]

Just now, Steve81 said:

Being interested in a demonstration and asking questions as you observed, is displaying an interest in science, albeit one limited to the topic of the demonstration. 

I disagree with the part I've emphasized.

[Steve81]

5 minutes ago, Genady said:

I disagree with the part I've emphasized.

The crux of the matter is that they ask the questions. The kids that said nothing weren’t apparently interested in the science of the demonstration. The kids that did have questions were, assuming they were halfway relevant.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Steve81

[Genady]

3 minutes ago, Steve81 said:

The crux of the matter is that they ask the questions. The kids that said nothing weren’t apparently interested in the science of the demonstration. The kids that did have questions were, assuming they were halfway relevant.

I would think that they were interested in the science of demonstration if they wanted to dig deeper, to know how we know that, why do we think so, where did this come from, etc. I didn't see this.

[Steve81]

6 minutes ago, Genady said:

I would think that they were interested in the science of demonstration if they wanted to dig deeper, to know how we know that, why do we think so, where did this come from, etc. I didn't see this.

What questions were asked, and what age were the children? Why I ask is that you can’t expect an 8 year old who can barely tie his shoes to ask questions the way you would.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Steve81

[iNow]

It depends also on how one defines science. Some like me (and I suspect Genady) see it as a process of making provisional models of the cosmos and how it behaves, but in a manner that minimizes our human bias. Others (and I suspect Steve may be in this camp) tend to see it as a collection of cool facts that will “Wow!” crowds and kids and maybe if we’re lucky get engineered into the world. 

Edited August 12, 2023 by iNow

[Steve81]

6 minutes ago, iNow said:

It depends also on how one defines science. Some like me (and I suspect Genady) see it as a process of making provisional models of the cosmos and how it behaves, but in a manner that minimizes our human bias. Others (and I suspect Steve may be in this camp) tend to see it as a collection of cool facts that will “Wow!” crowds and kids and maybe if we’re lucky get engineered into the world. 

I’m familiar with the scientific method and it’s purpose, thanks. But yes, science for tykes, and for most people, is little more than what you describe. Ultimately you have to start somewhere though.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Steve81

[iNow]

You also appear familiar with having a very thin skin and behaving in a mercurial manner. 

[Steve81]

2 minutes ago, iNow said:

You also appear familiar with having a very thin skin and behaving in a mercurial manner. 

Ahh so we’re back to attacks then. 

[Genady]

6 minutes ago, Steve81 said:

Why I ask is that you can’t expect an 8 year old who can barely tie his shoes to ask questions the way you would.

Of course. This range is quite wide, however.

OTOH, I might be biased, of course, and my personal experience is very limited, as I'm not a teacher. But that's why I've asked for evidence, if you had one. 

[Steve81]

1 minute ago, Genady said:

Of course. This range is quite wide, however.

OTOH, I might be biased, of course, and my personal experience is very limited, as I'm not a teacher. But that's why I've asked for evidence, if you had one. 

Mostly anecdotal from my wife, who as I mentioned is a teacher.

[Genady]

1 minute ago, Steve81 said:

Mostly anecdotal from my wife, who as I mentioned is a teacher.

OK.

[iNow]

16 minutes ago, Steve81 said:

Ahh so we’re back to attacks then. 

Who’s we?

[Steve81]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

It depends also on how one defines science. Some like me (and I suspect Genady) see it as a process of making provisional models of the cosmos and how it behaves, but in a manner that minimizes our human bias. Others (and I suspect Steve may be in this camp) tend to see it as a collection of cool facts that will “Wow!” crowds and kids and maybe if we’re lucky get engineered into the world. 

Just to add a few more thoughts in a hopefully civil manner...

I would add that while I don't personally partake in science as you might consider it, I do consider the knowledge and understanding of our universe (as best to my ability) to be a little more than just a cool collection of facts. My mind is more engineering oriented (which is to say I prefer problem solving over what you do) so science definitely comes into play, just in a different manner. 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Steve81

[MJ kihara]

On 8/12/2023 at 12:53 AM, Genady said:

Here is how the masters explained it, from Misner, Thorne, Wheeler, Gravitation, p. 823.

For clarification, r=0 is the BH center, r=2M is the BH event horizon.

I think we need to re-axamine nature of time...the issue of time reversal should not be completely concluded on observations based on observable universe alone,it's known dark matter and dark energy make the largest part of the universe.

Fundamental understanding of time,what it is and it's origin should be clarified before using time as the reason to claim 'not anything' can escape from a blackhole.

[Genady]

22 minutes ago, MJ kihara said:

I think we need to re-axamine nature of time...the issue of time reversal should not be completely concluded on observations based on observable universe alone,it's known dark matter and dark energy make the largest part of the universe.

Fundamental understanding of time,what it is and it's origin should be clarified before using time as the reason to claim 'not anything' can escape from a blackhole.

I think, time is not an object that has a nature. It is a bookkeeping device we use to organize events.

[Steve81]

@Genady@zapatos@Phi for All@iNow

Link to a study regarding a specific demonstration, with student feedback.

Items of interest:

Quote

A significant difference was found between the two cases (t = 3.72, p < 0.001), showing that a significant improvement had occurred in the achievements of those students who had been exposed to demonstrations when learning redox and electrolysis. These results confirmed our second hypothesis.

Quote

In order to determine the general attitudes (and students' interest in addition to the quantitative data assembled via the questionnaires, a structured interview was conducted with a small number of the experimental group's students. The answers for each question follow:

.....

1st question: How did the demonstration method affect your understanding and your satisfaction related to the oxidation - reduction and electrolysis subjects?

Answers:

• I liked it, because these scientific experiments are relevant to our daily life.

• Redox and electrolysis themes help us gain a better understanding of life and events.

• It had a positive impact on understanding electrolysis and redox.

• After experiencing the demonstration method, I had a better understanding of the issues related to redox and electrolysis.

2nd question: If you choose to be a science teacher in the future, what method would you choose to implement in the science class and why?

Answers:

• The delivery method using a computer and the method of combining the laboratory with demonstrations. EURASIA J Math Sci and Tech Ed 565

• The demonstration method, because of its positive impact on students.

• Providing examples of things that occur in everyday life to help students understand them more.

• The demonstration method in the laboratory, to make students take redox and electrolysis more seriously and to understand the importance of these topics.

3rd question: How did this method affect teaching the application of science in everyday life?

Answers:

• Students like to try things; they are curious about many things.

• It increases the students' desire to apply things in everyday life.

• It exposes the student to a variety of issues and how to use science, including its dangers and its positive effects.

• It had a positive effect, leading to better understanding of what is happening around us in everyday life.

4th question: How and to what extent has this method influenced your interest in the sciences - What is your feeling? Answers:

• It influenced me greatly; I'm now more interested in learning science.

• The science professionals affected me very much; I love it much more now.

• My interest grew more than in the past; I feel proud to have achieved this level.

• This teaching method increased my desire to study science; I feel more comfortable because I understood it more.

5th question: Has your perception of the sciences changed? How?

Answers:

• No serious difficulties; I still believe that the science profession is interesting and beautiful.

• Yes, my anxiety disappeared towards the science profession; learning it became easier and more interesting.

• Yes, I like science more and I now really want to study it.

• No, since I already had a positive perception toward science, especially chemistry before we saw the demonstrations.

6th question: How did this method affect your motivation to continue studying science in the future? To what extent? Answers:

• The teacher who used this method really affected me.

• I will continue to learn; maybe I'll be a teacher. A. Basheer et al. 566

• A positive effect regarding the desire to learn and teach science in the future.

• A very positive effect regarding my motivation leading to more satisfaction in studying science.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Steve81

[Janus]

11 hours ago, studiot said:

 

 Please be aware that I was referring very specifically to the trampoline analogy when I talked about an extra dimension. The dimension is in no way "higher" than the others by the way, as they are all supposedly equivalent. For the trampoline the extra dimension is required.

 

By "higher" I simply meant an an "extra" dimension.  Again, you don't need one.  You just need for the rules of geometry to not be Euclidean. 

The trampoline is an analogy of non-Euclidean geometry that is just simpler to visualize.

 

[Genady]

9 minutes ago, Steve81 said:

@Genady@zapatos@Phi for All@iNow

Link to a study regarding a specific demonstration, with student feedback.

Items of interest:

Thank you. However, it is significantly different from the topic of our discussion, because they actually presented the processes in question, i.e., oxidation-reduction and electrolysis, rather than demonstrated them with a fake imitation, like a trampoline demonstration of black hole:

Quote

A series of demonstrations were used to illustrate the concepts of oxidation-reduction and electrolysis to be taught. The following demonstrations were chosen:

 Opening demonstration: Steel wool in a copper sulfate solution and copper in a silver nitrate solution.

 Various metals in a solution of other metallic ions in order to demonstrate and discuss the electrochemical row.

 Electrolysis of a copper chloride solution.

 Electrolysis of water – by using Hoffman's apparatus