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QM. Split from Are Space & Time A Fundamental Property Or Emergent


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On 7/13/2021 at 10:47 AM, MigL said:

Scalar just means that the value associated with every point in space-time has no direction.
I fail to see how that favors emergence, or fundamentality, of space-time.

It is the average of all of the energy in a region in space.  If you took that average, there would be groups of random particles that exist at one moment in time.  Then that area would have an energy level greater than zero.  It is just another way of looking at it to get around the whole argument that random particle pairs don't actually add energy to a system.  If the system actually is shown to have more energy, then that energy would have to come from somewhere, is the argument.  If it comes from somewhere other than spacetime, then it would mean it is more fundamental.  

Basically, he is assuming that random particle pairs could be derived from quantum mechanics, instead of general relativity.  It is just a hand wavy way of saying that.  Quantum Mechanics doesn't deal with spacetime.  Then he is assuming that it doesn't come from a body on the macro scale, like stars or planets, etc...

I would like to add that I don't think it is possible, and quantum mechanics is a complete theory.  You have to remember that it was mostly derived by using conservation laws.  If there was something else in quantum mechanics that was making the energy, then it would have showed up as being an absence of energy somewhere else in the theory.  There is no absence of energy in other places in the theory to make up for it.  The only place I have heard it could come from is decoherence in the many worlds interpretation.  That doesn't explain why these particles would decohere into another universe while the other ones don't.  The MWI treats all the particles equally in that respect.  I really don't believe that could turn into a valid theory, but that would be the only way a particle could time slip into another universe without changing the energy of the other universe.

I believe that quantum mechanics is correct, and it just so happens that it was able to be accurately derived, even though this one instance violates conservation laws.  They are just independent particles that don't interact with other parts of the experimental system.  It is just part of the quantum weirdness that people will never understand, but have to accept, just like all the other strange things that happen with other particles.  That was the way Sean Carroll was taught, from them being unable to fit it into the theory.  That is supposed to be the accepted theory, i.e. quantum mechanics is finished. 

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1 hour ago, Conjurer said:

So, anyways, the reason why he believes spacetime is not fundamental is because it is a scaler. 

I don't know much about Sean Carroll, but I doubt very much that is the case, considering his biography.

In any event there is no version of 'spacetime' that is a scalar.

In this context scalars are Tensors of zero rank but the minimum tensor rank for a spacetime coordinate system is 1.

 

If you want a readable intoduction to the maths of ths try the NASA publication by Kolecki

Quote

 

A more comprensive treatment appeared in 2006 but I recommend beginners start with the 2002 paper listed in the quote

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20050175884/downloads/20050175884.pdf

 

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Scalar just means that the value associated with every point in space-time has no direction.
I fail to see how that favors emergence, or fundamentality, of space-time.

Me too. +1

Edited by studiot
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2 minutes ago, studiot said:

I don't know much about Sean Carroll, but I doubt very much that is the case, considering his biography.

In any event there is no version of 'spacetime' that is a scalar.

I believe it is a more general loose way to use the term that he adopted himself.  It is a description of spacetime, since it has a constant energy level, due to random particle pairs.  scaler = constant energy level

It would be like saying that the 1 volt on an IC chip makes the wire or line leading up to it a scaler.  

The original experiments done to prove this at Fermilab didn't refer to it this way, but it essentially describes what they discovered.  It is difficult to argue that it could not be considered a scaler.  I don't know the math well enough to determine how or if it would even change anything.  That is what he is using as a term to describe it.  I don't believe such a term was ever invented for it.  That is why this terminology is used for it.

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19 minutes ago, Conjurer said:

It would be like saying that the 1 volt on an IC chip makes the wire or line leading up to it a scaler.  

Which would be nonsense.

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12 minutes ago, studiot said:

Which would be nonsense.

He is the head of research at Caltech.  It seems the only work he has actually done on this is defining it under this new term, and he was needing to try to determine if it could be a valid term.  Then he believes that an underlying theory to describe it would be under this term. 

The more fundamental mumbo jumbo would be placing a theory to represent this new term to describe something like the electrons in the wire in the example.  The electrons would be more fundamental to the wire and gives the wire the property of having 1 volt.  If someone was to try to get him to look at the theory, they would probably need to define it under that term.   

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2 hours ago, Conjurer said:

Sean Carrol explains it in his book, "The Particle at the End of the Universe".  That is a reference if you could not tell.  I could post the date and location it was published in reference form if you would like.

More useful would be the chapter of the book, and better yet, page numbers.

 

2 hours ago, Conjurer said:

So, anyways, the reason why he believes spacetime is not fundamental is because it is a scaler.  The reason it is a scaler is because it has a base energy level that is not zero.  The reason its base energy is not zero is from random particle pairs that emerge and annihilator each other in space.  No one even believes anything about the actual properties of random particle pairs here, because they break conservation laws. 

Zero point energy, giving rise to particle-antiparticle pairs. Except they don't break conservation laws. You either have the zero-point energy, or in the context of QM the classical conservation laws don't apply in light of the various uncertainly relations, such as ∆E∆t > hbar/2

 

2 hours ago, Conjurer said:

In other words, no one has discovered what causes them or where they come from, so they cannot derive what energy source is driving them or causing them to exist.  Therefore, the reason he believes spacetime is not fundamental is because he doesn't believe the energy comes from nowhere and it is free energy that violates conservation laws. 

You can't tap into the zero-point energy, so it isn't free energy

 

 

45 minutes ago, Conjurer said:

I believe it is a more general loose way to use the term that he adopted himself.

It would be unusual for a physicist to co-opt an existing term and use it to mean something completely different.

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33 minutes ago, Conjurer said:

He is the head of research at Caltech. 

In all probability you have misread or misunderstood something he said.

For instance it would normally be OK to say the the voltage is a scalar, but saying the wire is a scalar makes no sense at all.

 

Note this thread is about separate space and time, as opposed to 'spacetime'

Our very own Mordred is fond of saying that 'space is just (empty) volume.

Volume is normally a scalar.

Now the interesting thing about area and volume and higher dimensional manifolds is that they can also be scalars or vectors or higher rank tensors, in the right circumstances.

 

But once again how does their classification affect whether they are emergent or not ?

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Are we discussing something in this book ?

carroll1.jpg.189a0699361396848d590d72bdc34d37.jpg

 

Has any member read this one or have anything to comment on it ?

I understand it is one of his popsci books.

 

I am wary because he has allowed this famous but flawed analogy on the front of his graduate level textbook on GR.

carroll2.jpg.9f6e8db86d26cb3ce4a4f437f8d6fd6c.jpg

Edited by studiot
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2 hours ago, swansont said:

More useful would be the chapter of the book, and better yet, page numbers.

I don't have time to do a book report.  I don't think page numbers are actually required to site a reference, even in a scientific journal or publishing a theory.  They assume that the people reading it would have a significant enough background to know the facts about it.  The fact that you don't, shouldn't be my problem.  It would require some research on your part.  You need to be qualified on a subject in order to do a peer review.

2 hours ago, swansont said:

Zero point energy, giving rise to particle-antiparticle pairs. Except they don't break conservation laws. You either have the zero-point energy, or in the context of QM the classical conservation laws don't apply in light of the various uncertainly relations, such as ∆E∆t > hbar/2

It has been almost about 5 years now, and you still haven't sited a reference for this.  I 100% absolutely know without a single doubt that every single best seller written up to the mid 90's doesn't agree with you on this.  Even if you did point out a page, I still would not agree with you, because that would mean that only 99.99% of the literature doesn't agree with you, including the actual people that worked there and wrote about.  That was the official statement Fermilab put out. 

You're still living a pipe dream.  You still haven't bothered to look it up.

2 hours ago, swansont said:

You can't tap into the zero-point energy, so it isn't free energy

It was detected by the particle accelerator in Fermilab.  It only detects photons that come from particle interactions.  Those photons are absorbed by the electronics antenna, which in turn changes the voltage level.  That change in voltage level is then translated through other electronics to create a reading.  

Particle accelerators are unable to detect phantom particles that do not emit light.  They were discovered experimentally and lack a theory, not the other way around.  This is part of your dillusional fantasy created by, "No, No, No, science... blah blah blah...  always obeys conservation of energy."  Try splashing some water on your face and slapping yourself...  AND SNAP OUT OF IT!!!   

2 hours ago, swansont said:

It would be unusual for a physicist to co-opt an existing term and use it to mean something completely different.

It is highly unusual, because it eventually leads to defining and proving something mathematically...  

1 hour ago, studiot said:

In all probability you have misread or misunderstood something he said.

For instance it would normally be OK to say the the voltage is a scalar, but saying the wire is a scalar makes no sense at all.

I don't really care.  Tell Sean Carrol.  He probably is a busy man, so you probably shouldn't waste his time about it.  I am just regurgitating information about it.  I haven't read his newest book, but in my first post I said this is what he went a great depth into about in part of it.  It couldn't be any more clear that it was something new that he was making up, so that is why he wrote about it in his book to explain it, "The Particle at the Edge of the Universe".  It even talks a bit about these great discussions we have...

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10 minutes ago, Conjurer said:

I don't really care.  Tell Sean Carrol.  He probably is a busy man, so you probably shouldn't waste his time about it.  I am just regurgitating information about it.  I haven't read his newest book, but in my first post I said this is what he went a great depth into about in part of it.  It couldn't be any more clear that it was something new that he was making up, so that is why he wrote about it in his book to explain it, "The Particle at the Edge of the Universe".  It even talks a bit about these great discussions we have...

 

You don't care,  ?

Well I would be grateful if you would direct your attention to the questions and comments I made about your claims, not some other matter.

You claimed that a wire is a scalar.

This is the third time I have asked you directly to substantiate this amazing claim.

3 hours ago, studiot said:

makes the wire or line leading up to it a scaler.  

 

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3 minutes ago, studiot said:

 

You don't care,  ?

Well I would be grateful if you would direct your attention to the questions and comments I made about your claims, not some other matter.

You claimed that a wire is a scalar.

This is the third time I have asked you directly to substantiate this amazing claim.

 

I don't care, because I am not the one making the claim.  I think it is a giant waste of time to even research the possibility of it.  He relates it to electronics in the book with a disclaimer that he doesn't know much about electronics.  The way he described it seems to fit well with that example.  Like most other examples in theoretical physics, they cannot be taken to be an exact representation.  

One of the leading problems in electronics is being able to translate something like an electron in theoretical physics to be translated into electrical theory.  Solving that problem, could help solving this problem if it was represented in that fashion.  

I agree, that in itself is an amazing claim, and since he is in charge of research in theoretical physics, that could hinder the actual theory that could fit the description from ever being discovered by substantiating that it has to fit his predetermined set of requirements.

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3 minutes ago, Conjurer said:

I don't care, because I am not the one making the claim.

Err ?

You made it here just as I quoted and I have only your word that you are 'appealing to authority' (isn't that one of those logical fallacies or something ?).

But worse you seem unwilling to discuss that claim, whoever made it, because the source does not actually matter to the meaning or applicability or validity.

5 minutes ago, Conjurer said:

One of the leading problems in electronics is being able to translate something like an electron in theoretical physics to be translated into electrical theory.

I totally agree. The is a world of difference between electrical or electronic theory, which is a totally artifically constructed model, and a physicist's attempt to model 'reality'.
Maxwell, for instance introduced non existent imaginary currents into circuit analysis for mathematical simplification.

So IMHO electric circuit theory should not be discussed in terms of electrons or even Physics.

 

I await your explanation of the claim that wires are scalars or admission that it is a claim that can't be supported.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, studiot said:

I await your explanation of the claim that wires are scalars or admission that it is a claim that can't be supported.

I believe the reason for it is because Sean Carroll doesn't agree with Michio Kaku's theory about quantum foam.  In the quantum foam theory, particle pairs are emergent from spacetime itself.  He is trying to develop a contending theory that is purely quantum mechanical where it is not an emergent property from spacetime itself.  If I had a pick of which of the two theories to use based on a hunch, I would go with Michio Kaku's theory on quantum foam instead.  I think it is more likely that is an emergent property from spacetime itself.  

Ideally, spacetime would be emergent from particles from the perspective of the Big Bang having to cause inflation of spacetime, but I don't think it is that big of a stretch to flip the two from coming from one or the other.  Michio Kaku's theories break down at the instance of the Big Bang, so he most likely wouldn't be able to say for sure which one comes from which or if they even do at all.  The answer to this thread is basically if you believe Quantum Foam theory is accurate or not, but I don't think he even really considered what was truly fundamental in developing his theory.  Most theories in quantum mechanics don't, and that notion could be easily exchanged for the other.  There could exist a quantum foam theory where spacetime is an emergent property to random particle pairs, which could cause inflation.  

If I remember correctly, he intentionally left it that way, because he wasn't absolutely sure of it or not.  Quantum Foam theory can be modified to show that by changing the direction of an arrow, just like most things in modern physics work forward or backwards.    

Edited by Conjurer
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I think the more likely explanation is that the book has some elements of pop-sci, and Conjurer didn't understand what he was reading.

Certainly his last couple of posts have shown that he is regurgitating ( as he says ), but it is not information.

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On 7/13/2021 at 3:22 PM, Conjurer said:

I don't have time to do a book report.  I don't think page numbers are actually required to site a reference, even in a scientific journal or publishing a theory. 

You probably got details wrong, and this would allow someone to more easily check what the actual claim was.

Quote

They assume that the people reading it would have a significant enough background to know the facts about it.  The fact that you don't, shouldn't be my problem.  It would require some research on your part.  You need to be qualified on a subject in order to do a peer review.

I have a PhD in physics, and this is a book written for a popular audience.

 

Quote

It has been almost about 5 years now, and you still haven't sited a reference for this.  I 100% absolutely know without a single doubt that every single best seller written up to the mid 90's doesn't agree with you on this. 

I’m talking about actual physics, not watered-down explanations in popular books.

Quote

Even if you did point out a page, I still would not agree with you, because that would mean that only 99.99% of the literature doesn't agree with you, including the actual people that worked there and wrote about. 

“the literature” being popular books, or peer-reviewed articles?

Quote

That was the official statement Fermilab put out. 

An official Fermilab statement should be easy to cite.

 

Quote

Particle accelerators are unable to detect phantom particles that do not emit light. 

I’m not sure what a phantom particles is.

You can use a hot-wire detector to detect atoms, you can use a microchannel plate to detect electrons. It’s not all photon detection.

 

Quote

They were discovered experimentally and lack a theory, not the other way around. 

Do you have the actual name of the particles they discovered experimentally, without a theory? They’re all given names.

Quote

This is part of your dillusional fantasy 

I’m in a pickle, I guess

 

 

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1 hour ago, MigL said:

I think the more likely explanation is that the book has some elements of pop-sci, and Conjurer didn't understand what he was reading.

Certainly his last couple of posts have shown that he is regurgitating ( as he says ), but it is not information.

I believe the idea of changing the arrow in quantum foam theory came from one of the people that peer reviewed his original publication, and it was a part of the book he wrote about it.  It was a really long time ago, so I don't remember.  The suggestion was made to him about it when it was originally published.  I just made a note to self that one day it may come in handy for the future, if I ever wanted to pursue such an endeavor.  It was a really good book.  Like I said, It would take some digging around to even figure out who wrote it.  I don't know how I would find out who the people were that did that.

I figured that now, since I spilt the beans about it.  You could have access to an actual mathematical construct that is capable of describing some crackpots rantings about particles coming from spacetime or vice versa.  Your welcome.

1 hour ago, swansont said:

You probably got details wrong, and this would allow someone to more easily check what the actual claim was.

I have a PhD in physics, and this is a book written for a popular audience.

Sean Carroll actually wrote in his book that he was not the least bit familiar with Quantum Foam theory, so it is not surprising that you are not either, even having a Ph.D. in the subject.  

1 hour ago, swansont said:

I’m talking about actual physics, not watered-down explanations in textbooks.

“the literature” being popular books, or peer-reviewed articles?

An official Fermilab statement should be easy to cite.

I don't think it would be possible for Fermilab to easily cite themselves on this matter.  They would most likely want to avoid most of the backwash from claiming it.

1 hour ago, swansont said:

I’m not sure what a phantom particles is.

You can use a hot-wire detector to detect atoms, you can use a microchannel plate to detect electrons. It’s not all photon detection.

Do you have the actual name of the particles they discovered experimentally, without a theory? They’re all given names.

I’m in a pickle, I guess

I think they actually call them pseudo-particles, but they are not those.  That is the way you seem to treat them in your comments.  I think it is actually ridiculous that I would even have to be the one to explain this to you to let you know about it.  The name is "random particle pairs".  I have even read in a book once that it is an unusual name to give them.  You just proved to me that you have not read a single one on the topic.  That would be the only way this issue is resolved.  Everyone of them at the public library explains all this in a section that is over this topic.  It takes learning how to use a glossary or table of contents.

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"Quantum fluctuations endow spacetime with a foamy texture."

https://arxiv.org/abs/2102.01836

It has actual turned into a habit for physicist to refer to random particle pairs as quantum fluctuations, it may have gained more popularity than the original name for it.  This is the first line of an abstract of a paper on it. 

 

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1 hour ago, Conjurer said:

Sean Carroll actually wrote in his book that he was not the least bit familiar with Quantum Foam theory, so it is not surprising that you are not either, even having a Ph.D. in the subject.  

The quantum foam is a reasonably scientific speculative explanation of spacetime before 10-45th seconds. Lawrence Krauss sees it as the nothing that we generally define as nothing, that has existed for eternity. Still it is speculative. And that is the main relevant point. I often use it in debates without IDers and creationists, but it is still speculative and I make sure they understand this as speculation just as there own IDer/creationist is also speculative...and unscientific speculation.

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6 minutes ago, beecee said:

The quantum foam is a reasonably scientific speculative explanation of spacetime before 10-45th seconds. Lawrence Krauss sees it as the nothing that we generally define as nothing, that has existed for eternity. Still it is speculative. And that is the main relevant point. I often use it in debates without IDers and creationists, but it is still speculative and I make sure they understand this as speculation just as there own IDer/creationist is also speculative...and unscientific speculation.

I was trying to look up his paper on it just now, but it doesn't seem to be coming up on the website.  He must have taken down off it or it was removed, but there was other work based on his work on there.  I was actually surprised to see a paper on Holographic Foam Cosmology, and the paper actually claims to support what I said.  Although, I only said it from it being speculation on there actually being a possible solution to the problem.  It is good to refine speculation to fit within the confines of what is or can be mathematically proven.  After all, theoretical physics is just that, speculation.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2102.01836.pdf

I really don't think they gave him enough credit for making the theory, but most people don't even agree with the basic premises of the theory.  It makes it impossible to discuss.

5 Conclusion We have sketched a scenario in which both the late and the early cosmic accelerations have a common origin and can be traced to spacetime foam. The case for dark energy in the current/recent (“late”) universe was proposed before [6, 15], while the case for cosmic inflation in the early Univerese is the main focus of this Letter. One attractive feature of our present proposal is that the scheme is very economical, involving no arbitrary or fine-tuned parameters. It is also natural in that inflation was inevitable as turbulence set off by the Planckian dynamics was inevitable in the early Universe. The scheme also provides a rationale for why inflation lasted only briefly (say, ∼ 10−33 sec.) as the turbulent phase was quickly terminated due to the nonlocal (extended) property of the quanta of spacetime foam. Of course it is important to check if this scenario is supported by more quantitative arguments and calculations. In passing we should also mention that it will be of great interest to see if our scenario for inflation discussed above can mitigate or at least amelioriate some of the criticism [28] against the inflation paradigm.

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Quantum foam was a term coined by John Archibald Wheeler to describe the chaotic behaviour of space-time at scales where geometry breaks down ( below Planck ), or cases where geometry hasn't had a chance to be established yet ( Big Bang pre 10-43 sec )

Quantum foam - Wikipedia

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24 minutes ago, MigL said:

Quantum foam was a term coined by John Archibald Wheeler to describe the chaotic behaviour of space-time at scales where geometry breaks down ( below Planck ), or cases where geometry hasn't had a chance to be established yet ( Big Bang pre 10-43 sec )

Quantum foam - Wikipedia

10-43 seconds rather then 10-45 seconds...I need to remeber that. Thanks.

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23 hours ago, MigL said:

Quantum foam was a term coined by John Archibald Wheeler to describe the chaotic behaviour of space-time at scales where geometry breaks down ( below Planck ), or cases where geometry hasn't had a chance to be established yet ( Big Bang pre 10-43 sec )

Quantum foam - Wikipedia

I believe a lot of work on it has been done since then, and the original idea was based on his work.  I think most of the theoretical physicist have gone in hiding and try to make up different names for it to approach the topic to prevent people from really knowing what they are talking about in secret.  There isn't that much information on it from the wiki.

Basically, it is just a woo woo description of random particle pairs being caused by ripples in spacetime itself.  That was what the idea evolved into.  It is a shame there is no equations on the page.  Michio Kaku's version of it must have been disproven somehow, so it was taken down off everything.

The wiki on quantum fluctuations says, "Vacuum fluctuations appear as virtual particles, which are always created in particle-antiparticle pairs.[4] Since they are created spontaneously without a source of energy, vacuum fluctuations and virtual particles are said to violate the conservation of energy. This is theoretically allowable because the particles annihilate each other within a time limit determined by the uncertainty principle so they are not directly observable."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation

I checked the reference on this, because it also claims to not be directly observable

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-virtual-particles-rea/

After checking the reference, I find that it does not actually make the last part of the claim, and it refers to the Casimir Effect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

"The Casimir effect can be understood by the idea that the presence of macroscopic material interfaces, such as conducting metals and dielectrics, alters the vacuum expectation value of the energy of the second-quantized electromagnetic field."

The photon is the force carrier or quanta of the electromagnetic field, so the wiki is in error on that part.

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A quote from that Wiki link

"The vacuum fluctuations provide vacuum with a non-zero energy known as vacuum energy.[17]
Spin foam theory is a modern attempt to make Wheeler's idea quantitative."

Aside from the links in the above quote, you may also want to investigate

Hawking Radiation
Planck time/scale
Lorentzian Wormholes
Holographic Principle

 

Edited by MigL
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I never actually heard of spin foam theory, that is completely new to me.  I never have been able to find a good book that goes into detail into quantum loop gravity.  It seems like it is starting to become the leading theory of quantum gravity.  It seems like all the new theories are using it, along with random particle pairs.  That is most likely where any new physics would be, in something left unproven.  I could never support or deny anything about it, because I know the name of it sounds cool.  lol.  That is about it.  I wish I was able to have some kind of real understanding of it.  

I wouldn't trust a wormhole made by Lorentz, but I would go with a tau wormhole all the way.

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  • swansont changed the title to QM. Split from Are Space & Time A Fundamental Property Or Emergent

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