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ZeroZero

More off-topic ranting (split - again - from The Selfish Gene Theory)

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Reilly: I have been observing him and Fox news. He was recently sacked for sexually abusing his staff. Reilly was in the right place  with Fox, the channel has no interest in the truth and is a mouthpiece and propaganda channel for Trump who also has no interest in the truth. 

If you subtract the number of people in America that claim to believe in evolution but claim this was created by God, you arrive at a figure of about 16% evolutionists. This is a terrifying figure, comparable with Islamic countries. America is loosing the plot.

I have seen the interview and read most of Dawkins books including the ones cited here. Personally I think Dawkin's treatment of the proof of God, using criticisms of  the ontological argument, argument against the teleological or "design" principle (Paley), and so forth, misses the point. 

Most believers have not even read the bible/ Quran etc, they just "feel something deep inside" and attribute this to God. This is supplemented by internal "revelations" and "visions" during that weird thing they do called praying, and perhaps elsewhere in their lives. Of course only Christians see the holy Mary, only Hindus Vishnu, this is because they are artefacts of our culture. 

Because these revelations are potent, they believe that they therefore MUST be true. If you believe something with all your heart this makes it true does it not? The stronger the belief, and the more people i n your community that support this belief, the more likely (they feel) their assertions are true. 

Of course this is completely wrong, at one time Egyptians believed that Ra the Sun God travelled across the sky every evening and one could find millions of people that "believed" this with all their heart. Whole industries were developed to support these ideas, ceremonies for the dead, pyramids and many other practices. A tidy profit could be made. Yet who would give credibility to such ideas today? They have vanished into the sand

Evolution encourages us to share/imitate the views of our social group and has no interest in the truth. If knowledge was revealed to organisms by evolutionary processes all creatures would   know about micro-organisms , the size of the Universe, DNA,  mathematics and so forth. Beyond a very small scope, creatures are given no knowledge of the universe, beyond what they need in order to survive and procreate. It is human endeavour that creates knowledge and nature does not give up her secrets easily

For aeons humans have existed in a world of delusion and error. If such humans are successful at procreating they survive, along with the delusions they share. This is the "natural" order of things. If a person wishes to change that order, they are frequently met with hostility and ostrasization - the very mechanisms that lower chances of evolutionary success

Evolution is true, it's a fact. It is evidenced by the study of morphology, DNA, animal behaviour and archeology - this disciplines are completely different, but they concur. The thesis that Donald Duck created the universe, or "God" is not supported by facts, it does not qualify as an explanation.

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10 hours ago, DrP said:

 No point in discussing anything with you if you are going to claim that whatever your mum told you about fairies and monsters is true. Very poor.  :-( I was expecting better somehow.

 

Bye. I won't waste my time anymore then.

 

At this stage it appears now he has played every card in the deck....I saw the victim card yesterday, and now its the joker. I suppose someone that needs to add some semblance of credence to his nonsense, gets quite desperate.

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On 10/9/2018 at 12:51 PM, ZeroZero said:

Not only do they start from a position of utter ignorance and then try to defend it, but they then claim that religious "knowledge" is some kind of equvalence to science. This even though they fail fail to make even the most basic observations about nature. There is a total conceit in religious thinking in the fact that there is never any actual measurement, never any calculation, verification

What religious people are you talking about?  You mean like creation scientists you see online and "political christians" you hear about on TV?

 

On 10/10/2018 at 12:25 PM, ZeroZero said:

If you subtract the number of people in America that claim to believe in evolution but claim this was created by God, you arrive at a figure of about 16% evolutionists.

Why would you subtract those that believe in God, yet still accept evolution as how things work?

 

On 10/10/2018 at 12:25 PM, ZeroZero said:

This is a terrifying figure

It might not be a figure you'd like to see, but IMO, I don't see how it's "terrifying."  It's not like our knowledge or denial of evolution can suddenly cause it to stop.  Human civilizations have progressed despite their lack of knowledge about it, and they will continue to progress regardless.  It's not like that of climate change denial where it could actually lead to dramatic effects on life as we know it.   

You say that most religious people haven't read the Bible/Koran, but most people that accept/propagate evolution don't really know that much about it or how it really works.  You could close the books on evolution today and it's not really going to have any affect on how most people go about living their daily lives.  

It only matters to biologists and scientists in related fields that use the understanding of evolution to somehow benefit society - and those that benefit will do so despite a lack of knowledge about it, even if they deny the very science that's saving their life.

I just think it's misguided to use evolution in a way (much like Dawkins) to make claims about another person's faith as if it should, or even could replace someone's philosophy of life or their personal need for God.  That's not what evolution is about.  That's not what science is about.  Likewise with those using religion as science.  That's not what it's about. 

 

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1 hour ago, DirtyChai said:

What religious people are you talking about?  You mean like creation scientists you see online and "political christians" you hear about on TV?

 

Why would you subtract those that believe in God, yet still accept evolution as how things work?

 

It might not be a figure you'd like to see, but IMO, I don't see how it's "terrifying."  It's not like our knowledge or denial of evolution can suddenly cause it to stop.  Human civilizations have progressed despite their lack of knowledge about it, and they will continue to progress regardless.  It's not like that of climate change denial where it could actually lead to dramatic effects on life as we know it.   

You say that most religious people haven't read the Bible/Koran, but most people that accept/propagate evolution don't really know that much about it or how it really works.  You could close the books on evolution today and it's not really going to have any affect on how most people go about living their daily lives.  

It only matters to biologists and scientists in related fields that use the understanding of evolution to somehow benefit society - and those that benefit will do so despite a lack of knowledge about it, even if they deny the very science that's saving their life.

I just think it's misguided to use evolution in a way (much like Dawkins) to make claims about another person's faith as if it should, or even could replace someone's philosophy of life or their personal need for God.  That's not what evolution is about.  That's not what science is about.  Likewise with those using religion as science.  That's not what it's about. 

 

Clinging to ignorance is terrifying, that's why I used the word. What i find terrifying is how human beings can follow a charismatic leader whether there is truth or not. I find it terrifying to think of how many humans have spent their whole lives supporting a religion that promises them a life after death and various other dubious benefits with no end result. What a waste of humanity. Such humans can often despise and even destroy those that don't hold their ridiculous notions.

Given a chance religions can act as a tyranny and snuff out any objections with fear, guilt, punishment and even executions. 13 countries punish apostasy with death, try thinking objectively and publishing your work in Saudi, Afghanistan or numerous other Islamic countries - at the very least you will get ostrasized, at worst you will be tortured and executed 

People should be free of these tyrannies.  

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29 minutes ago, ZeroZero said:

Clinging to ignorance is terrifying, that's why I used the word.

13 countries punish apostasy with death, try thinking objectively and publishing your work in Saudi, Afghanistan or numerous other Islamic countries

But you were talking about the U.S and dismissed a number of those that accept evolution simple because they believed in God.  They obviously aren't clinging to ignorance if they are at least open-minded enough to consider it.

Tho many terribly things happen in the name of religion, it's not representative of the vast majority of those that practice their faith.

You were simply making broad generalizations and comments about a protected class that can only be described as bigoted.

Edited by DirtyChai

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I accept that many people are decent people and believe in religion, I think they are being deceived often for profit and power. I am attacking the ideas, not the people. I stand against Islam because I want these people to be free - I feel for them and want their minds unshackled. There are many horrible things that happen in the name of faith and where a religion controls it can impose terrible penalties on those that disagree. 

You call me a bigot, but look at the bigots in religion, holding positions of power and suppressing the ignorant with false promises of rewards of an after life, "miracles" and other things that are is never delivered. Only today Leading Pakistani humanist campaigner, Gulalai Ismail, was  arrested in Pakistan. Suppression and bigotry is rife in such countries. All over the world people are arrested, flogged, tortured and killed for daring to question faiths. This same intolerance is found explicit in the texts they reveer. Those followers that, as you rightly point out are good people are guilty of disobeying the more horrible commands of these ancient texts. https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html . Such a God is no example to mankind, he is a vengeful intolerant despot. 

 In many islamic countries like Suadi, Pakistan and Afghanistan children are taught in Mosques that the final word on everything is the Quran (what utter piffle). Women are suppressed under Sharia and are not even allowed out of their houses without permission from a guardian.

To a Muslim, any unbeliever is an inferior citizen, not worthy of friendship nor even of looking a Muslim in the eye. They are destined to be dragged to hell by Allah the Merciful's torture Angels, where they will be given molten metal to drink and devil's fruit to eat, whilst their skin is burned of with fire, . Quran (9:73) -when their skin is cremated Allah the merciful "peace be upon him" will helpfully replace it again and again, into eternity. 

 

It is religion that is the bigot. 

 

 

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You know you have lost when you cite the Daily Mail as a source. 

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Strange. Try not to think in stereotypes it limit's your intelligence severely. This is the real case of a real woman facing a death sentence for blasphemy ,all because Muslims would not drink from the same water bowl. 

Edited by ZeroZero

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3 hours ago, DirtyChai said:

But you were talking about the U.S and dismissed a number of those that accept evolution simple because they believed in God.  They obviously aren't clinging to ignorance if they are at least open-minded enough to consider it.

To simply "consider"evolution is an understatement. The evidence makes it a certainty, hence why the Catholic church to gain some semblance of respect now recognise it, as well as the BB...Then they jump ship as we enter a region where scientific data is less clear as to how life came to be, and install the old "god of the gaps" while ignoring that the same speculations re the universe arising from nothing, should also apply to this imagined deity.

Here are two of my favourite links, one explaining how reasonable speculation can formulate a case for the universe coming from nothing, the other from one of the greatest educators of our time, with regards to the same standards being applied to any deity. https://www.astrosociety.org/publication/a-universe-from-nothing/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag6fH8cU-MU

I have absolutely no argument against any religious person [my wife is a christian in the true sense of the word] except when they come to science forums such as this, and start their ranting, raving and preaching mostly about imagined faults with science and the scientific method, and whether they do that out in the open or closeted.

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2 minutes ago, beecee said:

The evidence makes it a certainty, hence why the Catholic church to gain some semblance of respect now recognise it, as well as the BB...

To be fair, the catholic church recognized BB and evolution as early as the 50s, quite a bit before it got mainstream acceptance in the population. In the US at least the evangelical side took a much stronger stance against evolution. 

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41 minutes ago, CharonY said:

To be fair, the catholic church recognized BB and evolution as early as the 50s, quite a bit before it got mainstream acceptance in the population. In the US at least the evangelical side took a much stronger stance against evolution. 

Might have something to do with Father George LaMaitre. :)

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12 minutes ago, beecee said:

Might have something to do with Father George LaMaitre. :)

One could go back further, Mendel was instrumental in cementing Darwin's evolutionary theories, for example. It is important to keep in mind that church has funded scientific work. Not to mention that many if not most scholars were religious, of course. I.e. there is no a priori conflict between being religious and being a scientist. The schism seems to be of a more modern event which is arguably connected to the rise of secularism.

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Whatever way you look at it the Church is a bogus operation, its founded on claims which simply are not true. Over centuries it has shimmy shammied, to try and keep itself credible, but its fundamental ideas are false. The fact that many people hold these ideas in earnest (and maybe are otherwise nice people) does not change the fact that it is built on the idea that are  false. When we begin to realise these ideas are ridiculous or worse, the Church sidesteps the issue. Have you noticed, for example,  how it "forgets" to remind the faithful that...

Leviticus 20:13 

 “If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense

 

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14 hours ago, ZeroZero said:

Strange. Try not to think in stereotypes it limit's your intelligence severely. This is the real case of a real woman facing a death sentence for blasphemy ,all because Muslims would not drink from the same water bowl. 

Not much to do with evolution though, is it. 

Is your stereotyping of Muslims affecting your intelligence?

19 hours ago, ZeroZero said:

I find it terrifying to think of how many humans have spent their whole lives supporting a religion that promises them a life after death

They will be so disappointed after they die and find its not true.

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