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empleat

what if quantum computers totaly debunked free will

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Hello,

i think even if thanks quantum computers human brains were fully understood and proved there is no such thing as free will, people would still believe whatever they want to.

4/10 people believe than world isn't older than 10k years in murica... https://www.livescience.com/46123-many-americans-creationists.html Btw evolution is fact, it is not even theory...

Because everything is predetermined, or coinflippy and it is beneficial for us to believe we have free will for our survival and we also think we have free will from experience in everyday life when we are deciding, so it is hard to believe for people it is illusion, they would probably still believe in free will and 86% are religious and have no brain.

I used to know girl with iq 160 which was religious and good in math, problem is, how are people raised e.g. or kept in dark, without information in middle east for example, it doesn't do anything, first iq isn't intelligence and if you are brainwashed from young age. But really believing to something, who someone written in some book, in past, who was druged and had hallucinations, i don't know how old drugs are, or who had delusions, is crazy.

I would never believe, guessing is beyond dumb, but sometimes in our life we are forced to guess, if things going down to probability, which is dumb that you are forced to guess, intelligent people are suppose to have lack of prejudice, people are just cope with their mortality by tnt and 1000 more another reasons... It is stupid, if i didn't know about gravity i could believe if i jump from window i don't die, it is stupid guessing, that's it.

Either you know something or not and problem with science it is based on axiom of materialism, before we have microscopes and technology to study quantum phenomena, we though about world on macroscopic scale and we though in newtonian era, that everything is predetermined, because we couldn't simply know any better. So everything is essentially guessing, because we are limited by our perception, we can't know anything for sure, even facts established by logic proven to be false like that everything is deterministic by newtonian physics, but in quantum mechanics it is maybe indeterministic. So this is not even good example, because many-worlds.

Religion is cancer tho, in 14 countries in middle east and africa they kill you for non-believing, it is for controlling masses and religious people are rich and hording money and it was especially abused in medieval age, still even today it discriminates and devaluates current life and creates dogmas and telling people how to live and it creates social constructs and it helped establishing patriarchy myth.

I read about another 100000 things what it does, i just can't remember without context and won't list them of course all.

I would put people which are religious to mental institution, because they are having delusions and i would give them books about evolution and psychology  and i would give them free trial on lumosty.com and brilliant.org to train their brains and other them diet using nutriogenetics and than i would release them only after testing on polygraph and i would delete every religious text from internet and destroy or religious books, like seriously biscups, or how they calls, abused kids i read on ncbi, because they can't have sex, religion is worse than anything.

https://www.debate.org/opinions/should-religion-be-abolished

I know 1st countries are secular and promote belief if it isn't malicious to other peoples, they can believe in religion, but it is, religion is worse than almost anything, it does discriminate, promote crimes, racism and whatnot and it goes into politics, where it has nothing to do, church of scientology even infiltrated goverment and do malice against science and harward university student was kicked because had sex before mariage or something.

Like you can't even argue about religion is cancer, that's just fact. 

"Noone is more hopelessly enslaved than those who believe they are free" - Goethe

tesla said something than he is automaton, he couldn't even sleep and drink because how he was obssesed with his inventions and when he went for walk into a park and got vision, ye he definitely choosen vision popping in to his mind.........

Einstein, stephen hawking, tesla, goethe all didn't believe in free will.

Sabine hossenfelder, sean carol, richard dawkins and one prominent physicists all don't believe in free will

40% of genes determine personality and our behaviour is affected by external factors, even smell can change our beliefs, gut bacteria promotes what to eat, we already proven than everything is determined on macro level...

There would have to be some crazy twist like, suddenly all changes and you wake up and this was just simulation in universe where free will exists. Like you see everything is predetermined, there is no such thing as free will. How do you want overcome genes and environment, which both you didn't choose.

Problem is if i am not, i can't choose, so something must be given to me, before i can choose, so i don't have free will. 

Even if atoms had souls and it would be some external force than your body, it works how it works, there is no proof that something external affects you in present and there is increasing evidence how genes determine our choices, but environment matter even more, which you didn't choose either. It would have to affect your genes from past, so even they are souls, everything would be predetermined stil. If perhaps new genes popped out of blue sky to your body than maybe there would be some ridiculous twist, than everything is cause by souls or what ever, but they don't you have what you have from past and that's it.

Like this: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/apr/27/success-isnt-free-will-luck-determines-everything-oliver-burkeman

Ye and btw scientist gets nobel prizes, how they can feel content, they did nothing, just borned superior and than better luck on environment, emotions are just evolutionary mechanism for survival, there are no ultimate moral standards, moral standards stems from emotions and are just human construct. Everything just is, pleasure or pain is just illusion. And even evolution has no goal, just some lifeform adapted to its area and these who didn't procreate didn't survive, they is proof of evolutionary suicide when genes go awry, but we are motivated for survival for sure, not that it would be our goal, but it just emerged and developed like this.

So fun, when i achieve something i feel nothing, because i did nothing, i am just automaton and emergence of 100 billions neurons in my brain, i don't even exists i am stardust, tesla already proven we are just energy, life doesn't exists, because something is moving does that mean it is alive, even atoms in rock are constantly moving, does that mean it is alive, we are no different than rock atoms are indistinguishable from each other, even we emerged, it is stil matter of permutations, that rock could have been you, this is so dumb, absurd and stupid, i don't even.

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8 minutes ago, empleat said:

Because everything is predetermined,

Is it?

9 minutes ago, empleat said:

people would still believe whatever they want to.

True

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Even if everything would be indeterministic, that isn't any better. We are just particles, particles have no will. And even if by any chance like 0.01% there would be free will, if you don't know it for sure it is dumb. And from counter arguments to free will from arxiv.org - qm isn't without causation and from one phys forum even radioactive decay happens because there has to be particle in the first place. I read about causal indeterminism, i think if it refers to its stochastic component. But again indeterminism isn't any better, if anything is left to some chance. If i can't prove there is or isn't free will on 100% that's dumb, live in uncertainty. But probably free will is illusion, that's all we have determinism and probabability so fun...

Determinism is boring as hell and coinflipping, or rolling dice isn't any better.

Edited by empleat

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1 hour ago, empleat said:

We are just particles

Are we? That’s an odd belief. Even odder than believing in free will. 

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We are just atoms, which forms molecules and molecules make neurons and emergence of consciousness is just caused, by neurons communicating with each other, like viscosity, or order in ant colony, no part knows what whole part is doing, but each communicates with its adjacent part and sync up. It seems that we are just biological supercomputers.

Odd belief ? I don't think, it is fact we are from atoms, which are indistinguishable, if my atoms scrambled differently i would be just rock. Even tesla said we are just energy. I don't believe i just look at fact, but even facts are just observation of abductive reasoning and it repeats a lot of times we say it is fact, but again like determinism, before we knew qm, we though everything is predetermined, which stil maybe is. I am terrible at making examples, philosophers only could guess, before we got technology, what i want to say, we are limited by our perception.

Same i read over 1 million articles about everything, i don't see a point in doing anything, i am gonna die and everything deletes, even i was successful in something, free will doesn't exists, i did nothing. Same we are living in totalitarianism, corporations controlling everything, chips implants will be mandatory say some sociologist and biologist, i checked that up on mediabiasfact check it is legit. We will be probably controlled like in orwellian dystopian future, privacy already doesn't exists, democracy is illusion. Maybe in 10-20 years if global warming starts irreversible sequence of changes and arise so called hothouse effect, planet will be uninhabitable. Same human race will go extinct in some point, it is completely pointless to do anything....

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4 minutes ago, empleat said:

We are just atoms, which forms molecules and molecules make neurons and emergence of consciousness is just caused, by neurons communicating with each other,

That’s true. Apart from the “just” bit. You need to read up on how consciousness (and possibly free will) arises from the neural substrate. 

6 minutes ago, empleat said:

Even tesla said we are just energy.

He said all sorts of nutty things. 

7 minutes ago, empleat said:

i don't see a point in doing anything, i am gonna die

Sounds to me like you need professional help. 

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I already talked with expert with 2 phd, about meaning of life and free will and he didn't say he disagree with me in any of my points. Not that free will is illusion ,but like everything will extinct, even universe and about genes etc. I think on 99.9% that free will is illusion, you didn't choose your genes and environment. Personality is up to 40% determined by genes and iq up to 90%. People which develop brain tumor become pedophiles. Free will seems that is obviously illusion. We didn't choose our preference and we are influenced by external factors. Even tesla said he feeled like automaton, he couldn't even sleep, because how much he was delved into his inventions. I don't see point in living, when free will is illusion and everything will cease to exists anyway so... BTw talking to someone doesn't change how world is, it doesn't do anything.

Edited by empleat

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2 hours ago, empleat said:

talking to someone doesn't change how world is, it doesn't do anything

Have you never changed your mind on a topic after speaking with someone about it? Surely, this can't be a true statement.

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3 hours ago, empleat said:

I already talked with expert with 2 phd

That isn't what I was referring to. I think you could benefit from some professional medical help; some sort of counselling.

3 hours ago, empleat said:

Personality is up to 40% determined by genes and iq up to 90%.

That doesn't sound right. All the studies I have seen of the effect of genetics on IQ show there is a very small effect probably distributed across a very large number of genes. As to personality, I'm not even sure how you would quantify that to measure it.

This sounds like one of this made-up factoids, unless you can provide references.

 

3 hours ago, empleat said:

Even tesla said he feeled like automaton

Yes, but he was borderline insane. Why use someone like that as a reference point?

3 hours ago, empleat said:

I don't see point in living, when free will is illusion and everything will cease to exists anyway so...

If it makes you feel any better, consciousness and the sense of "self" is probably an illusion as well. Our entire perception of the world is a trick played on us by the brain!

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Quantum Mechanics isn't relevant to the problem, because the free-will debate is purely ontological and concerns  only the  conceptual relationship between  one's notion of personal identity and  one's notion of physics and is  therefore not a scientific question.   The question of free-will is independent of the empirical implications of any particular physics theory.  It  is only dependent upon one's  ontological and psychological interpretation of a physics theory  which has no testable empirical implications.

Generally, if a body is conceived as being a separate entity to  it's surroundings and as possessing its own independent existence,  and furthermore if  only the motions of the body are considered and not the motions of it's surroundings,  then the body is naturally describable as being causally controlled by it's surroundings, and give rise to the impression that its surroundings constitute some sort of externally imposed causal agency.    For example, the Earth considered "in and of itself" might be described as being  controlled by the gravitational effect of the Sun.   

On the other hand, suppose  the motions of the Earth and the Sun are considered together and simultaneously.  Which controls which now?  For all we have is a system of gravitation equations describing and relating the simultaneous motion of two  objects in some frame of reference.  Perhaps we might want to say that the Earth and the Sun don't control each other when they are considered as a joint-system, but are together controlled by an independent gravitational field.  But then the notion of causal agency once again  disappears if the  motions of the Earth, Sun and Gravitational Field are  modelled together.

  Also consider that if an event A that occurs on the earth cannot interact with an event B occurring on the sun due to it requiring  faster-than-light travel,  then A and B do not have a well-defined temporal ordering according to special relativity.

People commonly seem to think that determinism in the sense of a fully predictable universe constitutes an opposing thesis to freewill, which as a consequence produces the illusion that the question of free-will is scientific and scientifically testable.    But this is a mistake in my opinion, partly because of the  empirical impossibility of distinguishing so-called 'true' randomness from the pseudo-randomness generated by an algorithm, and partly because the psychology of the "free will" question has little to do with predictability and everything to do with the  divided self.  

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4 hours ago, empleat said:

I already talked with expert with 2 phd, about meaning of life and free will and he didn't say he disagree with me in any of my points.

Were the PhDs relevant to the discussion? I mean, you can have a PhD in economics and math, and that's not going to mean much in discussions about life and free will.

 

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11 hours ago, iNow said:

Have you never changed your mind on a topic after speaking with someone about it?

I am going to the psychiatrist and 2 months i used to go to psycholog from organisation for people with autism, even that expert with 2 phd, which studied free will, he didn't disagree with me, not that free will exists or not, which you can't theoretically prove, or disprove completely, but agreed about genes, environment, evolution and what not.

11 hours ago, iNow said:

Surely, this can't be a true statement.

10 hours ago, Strange said:

That isn't what I was referring to. I think you could benefit from some professional medical help; some sort of counselling.

If i was delusional, than ye talking to psychiatrist can change your worldview. Or cbt, which only cost money, not that it would be a problem, but it doesn't do anything. There is nothing psychiatrist/psychologist/therapist whatever can do with this:

It is point of existential boredom, people cannot derive pleasure from anything, if they don't see point in anything- don't take this literally.

-Free will is probably illusion on 99.9%, even einstein didn't believe in free will, stephen hawking, nicola tesla, goethe, from living people: sean carrol, sabine hossenfender, richard dawkings and there will be more people i don't know 

-achievement is illusion: this article pretty much nails it.

-Evolution is not even theory but fact.

-These are theories, but still good ones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_fate_of_the_universe  Even universe will cease to exist, why would i do anything, when even universe will end, life is pointless. I don't understand you have to know this. 

-If eternal return is true, we are experiencing same events infinitely over and over again. Two theories i read on quora are not much popular, but superdeterminism is not popular only because you cannot test it, not that wouldn't be bad theory. Roger Penrose is now working on universal rebirth. Scary think is even possibility of it. What is someone dies in fire over and over again.

-Love is just chemicals in brain, just evolutionary mechanism for survival, so race is reproduced and so parents stay together, which increases chance for offspring survival, you can give octopuses ecstasy and they manifest social behavior, that octopus had surely will to choose that...  

Neurologists found out we are motivated by either pleasure or pain.

-Altruism doesn't exists, altruism is selfish, if you help someone, you are motivated by pleasure, because he had to cooperate to survive and we got edge upon other races, because survival > selfishness, so it feels good, so you are doing it for your pleasure and there is bigger chance if you help someone he will help you back and 86% people believe in religion, so they think that it is right think to do help someone, but still they are motivated by pleasure and pain which can be related to hell and heaven.

-There are no ultimate moral standards, it just social construct like patriarchy, moral standards are stemming from emotions. Emotions are just feedback from bodystates, emotions serve as evolutionary mechanisms for survival. Tho evolution has no goals, there is even evolutionary suicide - but nevertheless, we are pretty motivated to survive, it is how it is. And evolution is that just some forms adapted to their environment, they can use what they got for their disposal, on other planet lifeforms differs.

- I was animal someone would kill me another animal, or human, i they would torture me for testing, or i would die from pollution...

-Not sure how i am gonna die, i can die painfully.

-There is no justice in the world

-Russia is oligarchy, more than 2/3 of wealth is owned by oligarchy and it's mafia state, america is totalitarianism, myth of democracy, it is only democracy from outside. Australia heading towards corporatocracy in 2030. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/ https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Media_Bias/Fact_Check 

-Coporations have more economy than states: http://www.globalissues.org/article/234/the-rise-of-corporations globalization favors corporations and tax havens and stock buy bucks and america, they legalized lobbying in 2011, don't remember that law how it calls. And corporations made money from war in iraq - already eisenhower warned against military industrial complex and thanks to centralized banks elitists come to power into us.

+ i have another 20k reasons, or more, which cannot be changed by talking to someone, it is absurd, hilarious...

I am realist, i have asperger, so i have damaged, or not correctly developed limbic system, so i have more developed neocortex(not necessarily), or because i have deficit in social interactions, i focus more on logic, or thinking, which gave me bonus, whatever, point is i am very realistic, not autistic :D, i know about autistic thinking and i don't observe no such thing in me, but i know everyone of us, we have slight delusions, it is not even possible to not have, unconscious knowledge is absorbed without applying judgement to it. I can estimate my intelligence very precisely, not lower, or higher, i know iq changes and it depends on various factors, i was saying that before i read anything and i was thinking, that everything on macro level is predetermined myself, before anything, because how straight forward it is. 

There was one kid, he was worst in math in school, literally terrible and he started listening to math champion counting and become winner of some global championship in math, because neuroplasticity, scientist said it was given genes, because not everyone could do it, you still have to have right genes.

 

9 hours ago, TheSim said:

The question of free-will is independent of the empirical implications of any particular physics theory.  It  is only dependent upon one's  ontological and psychological interpretation of a physics theory  which has no testable empirical implications.

Eeh.. So if perfectly normal people develop brain tumor and they become pedophiles, that's ones interpretation neurological/biological theory ? I don't see how free will is possible.  Evolution is fact for example, not even theory and Richard Dawkins said as materialist, he doesn't believe in free will. So for example article on ncbi that criminality is inherited in families, that's just ones interpretation on biological theory , when gut microbes can make us crave foods, free will would be possible only if world wouldn't be materialistic and that's impossible to disprove, because it is unfalsifiable. So it is guessing and i don't like guessing, because it is pointless, live in uncertainty and only option you have is guessing. Or if i borned in prehistory, i would die in fight, or to disease, so i wouldn't even get to live life and i would have no options, so i guess that would be free will, do you know how limited such life would be and evolution is cruel. I wouldn't even get mental capacity to decide and understand thinks and knowledge, so i would do something dumb, which would cost me my live probably. How it was decided that i am atoms which merged together, i could be bacteria if events was different, it is from same atoms that i am...

Everything on macro level is determined and in quantum mechanics indeterministic and even deterministic in some interpretations.

By definition cosmology studies universe as a whole, we are parts of it, we are atoms.. And is connected to the fields of metaphysics and ontology.

Particles which are indistinguishable from each other and particles have no will in the first place, will is emergent phenomena, but it seems more like automation than agent that is able to decide freely to me. http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2016/01/free-will-is-dead-lets-bury-it.html http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2018/07/limits-of-reductionism.html http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2014/01/10-misconceptions-about-free-will.html 

Second link says, she grants believing in free will thanks to failure of reductionism, but than she says it takes more than that to convince her into believing in free will.

Counter arguments to the free will: https://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0208104

There is new theory ribosomes may be selfish not dna, not certain yet so it is useless, but can serve as remark, because how other things are e.g. survival.  Ribosomes are just replicators, why everything replicates, it may be how permutations of atoms touched themselves and make it so, it is just emergence - random luck, it seems at least. http://www.eoht.info/page/Defunct+theory+of+life I know thims.. xD but i use it as perspective and than i search more to find facts and verify it. I found out atoms are not going anywhere, they still exists when they form molecules, does that mean that if something move is it alive ? Atoms in rock are constantly moving so what, does that mean rock is alive ? Atoms from that rock could be used to build you or me, if you had skills. When we say something, or think, it is just emergence of consciousness from interactions of atoms it seems.

10 hours ago, Strange said:

That doesn't sound right. All the studies I have seen of the effect of genetics on IQ show there is a very small effect probably distributed across a very large number of genes. As to personality, I'm not even sure how you would quantify that to measure it.

What about extremely talented kids, which read newspaper in 3, if they had no inrited superior genes how is that possible,  anyone could do that, every kid would be doing that. Or some kid have exceptionally good shot-term memory and remembers whole song on first trial and can reproduce it on piano. Right away find something good about iq hmhm wait, i need more time, i read over 1 million articles, i couldn't find again everything even i wanted. To answer properly i will just have to google week or some ridiculous time and i feel worse everyday.

Personality was found by twin studies, but even than it wasn't successful completely separate genes from environment, i know gene studies are iffy, but it is getting better everyday and still it affects a lot and that's they point.

 

 

9 hours ago, swansont said:

Were the PhDs relevant to the discussion? I mean, you can have a PhD in economics and math, and that's not going to mean much in discussions about life and free will.

Ye he studied free will problem.

 

 

Edited by empleat

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It’s unclear why you quoted me since you didn’t even come close to answering my actual question. 

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Hi TheSim,

This is one of the most concise and to the point postings about free will I have ever seen in a forum. Pity that is on 'The Lounge'. It should be pinned in philosophy... 

But empleat obviously did not understand it. It is my experience that most people who do not believe in free will 'because determinism' are still heavily stuck in out of date ideas (or better, out of date gut feelings), like that free will presupposes some centre in the brain which autonomously, without causal influences, does have causal influence on what we do. In the old days this would have been the soul. Now that we know there is no material equivalent of the soul in the brain they think that 'free will' has no meaning at all. (It would be principally impossible that such a centre exists of course; I never understood why we need neurologists to explain to us 'that we have no free will', i.e. to declare that they did not found the soul in the brain.)

In the meantime, in daily life, nearly everybody lives on with this concept, perfectly knows when people are coerced to do something, or do it from free will. (Of course there are grey areas, but principally the idea is clear). 

Really, @empleat, the problem of free will as an intellectual problem is a pseudo problem. As a personal problem however, it can be very real. Fears for other people or for certain situations, uncertainty in questions about what you really want are serious, and should be taken seriously. It is good that you try to get help. But really, do not think that the the intellectual problem of 'free will' has anything to do with your personal experience of lack of free will. Get the intellectual problem out of the way, don't go there. Try to discover how you can improve your life independent of philosophical discussions. It does not do you any good, believe me.

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12 hours ago, iNow said:

It’s unclear why you quoted me since you didn’t even come close to answering my actual question. 

Again how talking to someone change how the world is ? And i already did so..

7 hours ago, Eise said:

the problem of free will as an intellectual problem is a pseudo problem

Ye intellectually it cannot be answered, but scientifically it can, while science is based on materialism and observation of causal relations, that's best it gets and everything else is guessing. And i read scientific facts like evolution. I didn't choose my genes and environment, e.g. if borned in different environment with different genes, sure i would be a different person.

7 hours ago, Eise said:

Get the intellectual problem out of the way, don't go there. Try to discover how you can improve your life independent of philosophical discussions. It does not do you any good, believe me.

My life is fine, i was lucky yet, i have above average life in terms of money and possibilities, that's not the problem. Why would i want to improve anything, when humanity is gonna extinct and even universe. What would be point of doing that. People are doing things, either because of pain, or pleasure, but that's just illusion, that's subjective motivator for our survival, it is not even real. How could i feel contentment for example if i had success, while i know it is just luck, i didn't do anything. And people with existential boredom cannot derive pleasure from doing things, because they don't see point in doing anything. I agree with point from this video: that if life didn't have meaning i wouldn't do anything in my life.

Life if pointless that's it, i don't want to do anything...

Edited by empleat

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4 minutes ago, empleat said:

Again how talking to someone change how the world is

Have you never convinced someone to change their mind? That itself is a way the world changes. I've changed the mind of others. Others have changed my mind. The world consequently works differently.

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You cannot change that universe is gonna extinct, you cannot change civilization will extinct much sooner. And that evolution is fact etc. Noone can...

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11 minutes ago, empleat said:

You cannot change that universe is gonna extinct, you cannot change civilization will extinct much sooner. And that evolution is fact etc. Noone can...

I see, but what would be the benefit of making said changes if we could?

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33 minutes ago, empleat said:

You cannot change that universe is gonna extinct, you cannot change civilization will extinct much sooner. And that evolution is fact etc. Noone can...

Two of those things are so far in the future that it isn’t worth worrying about. It isn’t worth losing sleep over the fact the speed n will exist lode and destroy the earth in a few billion years. 

Mob the other hand evolution is a fact and is a good thing, so not quite sure why you lump it in with the others. 

1 hour ago, empleat said:

Life if pointless that's it, i don't want to do anything...

Please go and seek medical help 

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