Killing Animals and Spirituality?

[ModernArtist25]

Do you think someone can be spiritual even if they pay someone to kill an animal so they can eat meat?
What if that person is a millionaire or billionaire and donating to charities all over the world yet still support the suffering of people, animals, and the environment by eating meat? Let's say that a rich person donates to charities that help with climate change and world hunger.

Is this person using his/her money to relieve the symptoms but not necessarily getting to the root of the problem? What do you all think?

[dimreepr]

Do you think someone can be spiritual even if they pay someone to kill an animal so they can eat meat?

 

This question is one of talent not spirituality; if you're hungry enough, fuck god.

Edited June 23, 2017 by dimreepr

[Phi for All]

People often forget that most domesticated animals would fail in the wild. They also forget that humane treatment and lots of food and healthcare are part of the equation. It's not all just "get in my belly", we hopefully honor the relationship more than you're alluding to.

[ModernArtist25]

People often forget that most domesticated animals would fail in the wild. They also forget that humane treatment and lots of food and healthcare are part of the equation. It's not all just "get in my belly", we hopefully honor the relationship more than you're alluding to.

 

I don't know about that...pigs in factory farm live only up to 6 months. Domesticated pet pigs can live up to 20 years but in the wild they live only up to 4 to 8 years old due to predation or injury. And most of the meat sold in grocery stores are a product of inhumane treatment of animals cramped in small spaces treated as commodities to meat the demand of people. Have you seen any videos on factory farming?

Edited June 23, 2017 by ModernArtist25

[Phi for All]

I don't know about that...pigs in factory farm live only up to 6 months. Domesticated pet pigs can live up to 20 years but in the wild they live only up to 4 to 8 years old due to predation or injury. And most of the meat sold in grocery stores are a product of inhumane treatment of animals cramped in small spaces treated as commodities to meat the demand of people. Have you seen any videos on factory farming?

 

I call BS on all of that. Sure there are abuses, but not "most of the meat". In fact, abusing an animal induces stress and the resulting chemicals can adversely affect the meat. It would be stupid for someone in that business to allow abuse.

 

All videos about the slaughterhouse are going to seem gruesome. Killing the animals is part of the process, and for cows and chickens at least, they wouldn't have lives at all without animal husbandry.

 

Pigs aren't all slaughtered at six months. I think you've latched onto the emotional side of this argument before you engaged your reasoning mind. Now all you can see is horrible, and you ignore any benefits. You've turned this into a negative spiritual element

[Fuzzwood]

Spirituality is a man-made concept. If you are a vegan, good for you. Do not try to enforce your habits upon others. Plenty of extreme examples of people enforcing ways of living upon others can be found in the middle east without fail.

[Moontanman]

Human beings are predators, omnivores if you want to be picky. Not eating meat is unnatural, eating meat is what allowed us to evolve into the thinking beings we are today. I grew up on a farm, abusing animals was a good way to get your hide tanned... We always treated the animals well, our lives depended on it, we never even killed an animal in the sight of other animals. But we did kill and we did eat and I never felt bad about it. Factory farming might be less than humane but as Phi said abusing animals at the very least affects the quality of the meat, I think that raising animals for food is better than killing wild animals but I do that as well, I like to eat, meat is good for me and good to eat. To be completely honest the only wild meat I generally eat is fish I catch myself, but I kill rats, mice, bugs and anything that is dangerous or interferes in bad way in my life, I don't feel any worse about them than the deer burger I made spaghetti out of last night...

 

Humans are part of the ecosystem, we eat them, sometimes they eat us, in the distant past we were probably eaten quite often.

 

Another thing to think about, why do plants have less of a right to live than animals?

 

Oh and by the way I feel quite spiritual, the supernatural or killing has nothing to do with it...

Edited June 23, 2017 by Moontanman

[ModernArtist25]

Phil, animals in factory farms are castrated with no painkillers. These animals are fed grains(not what they naturally eat in the wild which cause digestive issues) so they can get fatter as soon as possible so they can be killed. They are imprisoned in cramp spaces where they step on their manure and urine all day. Yes abusing animal induces stress and affect quality of meat. Have you ever tasted an ethically raised meat? Compare it to your local grocery store meat? Texture and taste is different. How do you know these animals wouldn't have lives at all in the wild? They would get freedom and that's what most living creatures want. I am not a vegan but I am very conscious about where my meat came from.

Edited June 23, 2017 by ModernArtist25

[Raider5678]

1. Phil, animals in factory farms are castrated with no painkillers. These animals are fed grains(not what they naturally eat in the wild which cause digestive issues) so they can get fatter as soon as possible so they can be killed.

 

2. They are imprisoned in cramp spaces where they step on their manure and urine all day.

 

3. Yes abusing animal induces stress and affect quality of meat. Have you ever tasted an ethically raised meat? Compare it to your local grocery store meat? Texture and taste is different.

 

4. How do you know these animals wouldn't have lives at all in the wild? They would get freedom and that's what most living creatures want. I am not a vegan but I am very conscious about where my meat came from.

1. And the pain lasts how long? They're fed grains. Which while they aren't what they naturally eat in the wild, humans typically don't naturally eat cooked food. Yet..... it turns out to be much more healthier for us then eating everything raw.

 

2. Again. Not all pigs. You're assuming, and guessing.

You haven't been to all farms. Neither have you been a farmer.

 

3. Have you ever tasted an ethically raised meat? How do you know it was ethical?

On top of that, the chemicals won't stay in the meat forever.

You don't want the animal stressed when you kill it.

 

4. Because releasing domestic animals into the wild usually results in them dead. They'd get freedom, and then they'd die.

Now.

I know your argument.

"But we haven't tried it with EVERY SINGLE domestic animal! Some might survive!"

That's true.

But the majority would die slow painful deaths.

[ModernArtist25]

Yes, it turned out that cooking is actually healthier for us. But grains are not healthier for the farm animals. Grain-based diets can produce serious and sometimes fatal digestive tract problems in food animals such as cows, goats, and sheep whose stomachs are best suited to digesting high-cellulose containing plants like grass. If the animals have cognitive abilty, do you think they rather live a life with freedom, have a chance to mate, and eat varied food natural to them and then die painfully, OR live in a prison where they are confined in small space, never mate, never see the light of day, and grow unnaturally more than their bodies can handle and then later killed?

Edited June 23, 2017 by ModernArtist25

[Phi for All]

How do you know these animals wouldn't have lives at all in the wild? They would get freedom and that's what most living creatures want.

 

Where do you come up with this nonsense? Coyotes regularly raid henhouses where I live, so if you remove the security and leave them to fend for themselves, what exactly do you think would happen?

 

If what you said was true, if the farms left the gates open all the animals would run away and never come back. What actually happens is that most would come back because of the food and shelter and lack of predators.

 

Freedom is a human concept. For an animal, the only lack of freedom that matters is holding them down or trapping their legs. The kind of abstract freedom you're foisting upon them is NOT within their intellectual capabilities. You're an anthropomorphist.

[ModernArtist25]

 

Where do you come up with this nonsense? Coyotes regularly raid henhouses where I live, so if you remove the security and leave them to fend for themselves, what exactly do you think would happen?

 

If what you said was true, if the farms left the gates open all the animals would run away and never come back. What actually happens is that most would come back because of the food and shelter and lack of predators.

 

Freedom is a human concept. For an animal, the only lack of freedom that matters is holding them down or trapping their legs. The kind of abstract freedom you're foisting upon them is NOT within their intellectual capabilities. You're an anthropomorphist.

That's strange...why would you just let out billions of farm animals free to roam around out of nowhere? The reason why we have billions of farm animals is because humans keep breeding them for food.

According to studies, hogs in the wild usually live from 4 to 8 years old. That's much longer than they would in factory farming. I can't believe that you think by confining animals and not letting them see the light of day to enjoy life, you are actually doing something good for them. Obviously animals are not happy being in the factory farm environment and that's why they are given Prozac for depression.

 

Tyson meat farm:

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/tyson-foods-dumps-pig-farm-after-nbc-shows-company-video-f2D11627571

 

Perdue factory farm:

https://www.treehugger.com/green-food/perdue-chicken-farmer-invites-film-crew-his-farm-show-whats-really-going.html

Edited June 24, 2017 by ModernArtist25

[OldChemE]

I'm wondering what the OP means by spirituality-- since very religious book I know of, particularly the Bible, clearly condones eating meat.

[Moontanman]

 

That's strange...why would you just let out billions of farm animals free to roam around out of nowhere? The reason why we have billions of farm animals is because humans keep breeding them for food.

According to studies, hogs in the wild usually live from 4 to 8 years old. That's much longer than they would in factory farming. I can't believe that you think by confining animals and not letting them see the light of day to enjoy life, you are actually doing something good for them. Obviously animals are not happy being in the factory farm environment and that's why they are given Prozac for depression.

 

 

What would you do with all the cows, goats, sheep, chickens, hogs, iguanas, horses, and any other animal that has been bred to thrive in captivity?

I'm wondering what the OP means by spirituality-- since very religious book I know of, particularly the Bible, clearly condones eating meat.

 

 

More than that they condone killing and burning animals because god loves the smell of burning flesh!

[Phi for All]

That's strange...why would you just let out billions of farm animals free to roam around out of nowhere?

 

I figured you had no plan to deal with existing animals. It's always "Everyone needs to stop killing animals!" and then you seem content to just let nature take its brutal, uncalculated course. These are animals I pledged to honor with my bartering and vigilant demands for their humane treatment as they're slaughtered for my continued existence. Unlike you, I understand we wouldn't be here without them, and that we haven't outgrown our need for them.

[Bender]

Some questions:

Is it ok to swat a mosquito or to poison rats or vermin?

 

Is it ok to own a pet cat? Compared to how they kill their prey, farm animals have it pretty fine in the worst of slaughter houses.

 

Is it ok to accidentally step on a bug, seriously damaging them but not killing them, leaving them for a long and agonizing death struggle?

 

 

That's strange...why would you just let out billions of farm animals free to roam around out of nowhere? The reason why we have billions of farm animals is because humans keep breeding them for food.
According to studies, hogs in the wild usually live from 4 to 8 years old. That's much longer than they would in factory farming. I can't believe that you think by confining animals and not letting them see the light of day to enjoy life, you are actually doing something good for them. Obviously animals are not happy being in the factory farm environment and that's why they are given Prozac for depression.

Citation needed.

[ModernArtist25]

 

I figured you had no plan to deal with existing animals. It's always "Everyone needs to stop killing animals!" and then you seem content to just let nature take its brutal, uncalculated course. These are animals I pledged to honor with my bartering and vigilant demands for their humane treatment as they're slaughtered for my continued existence. Unlike you, I understand we wouldn't be here without them, and that we haven't outgrown our need for them.

 

Do you get your meat from farms that raise them ethically? Have you done your research on these farms or visited their location? Commercial meat which is 98% of what you see in the grocery store is a product of suffering and torture. Do you know that farms that raise animals ethically let the animals out in the pasture all day and they do not castrate them(they get to keep the parts they are born with)? Do you know that they let animals have sex the traditional way (a bull and a cow), no force, and no artificial insemination? Oh yes, our prehistoric ancestors needed them but in this day and age where you have access to the grocery store, there is no need to binge on meat. Especially meat that come from factory farms where they treat animals cruelly.

[Phi for All]

Obviously animals are not happy being in the factory farm environment and that's why they are given Prozac for depression.

 

So you object to humane measures to make the animals happier? You're impossible to please on this topic.

 

I've heard they give them small doses of acetaminophen for the pain of growth spurts because of how well they're fed. How do you feel about that? Who wouldn't fatten up their birds before slaughter, and how humane to think of the pain that causes while they're alive?

[ModernArtist25]

Some questions:

Is it ok to swat a mosquito or to poison rats or vermin?

 

Is it ok to own a pet cat? Compared to how they kill their prey, farm animals have it pretty fine in the worst of slaughter houses.

 

Is it ok to accidentally step on a bug, seriously damaging them but not killing them, leaving them for a long and agonizing death struggle?

 

Citation needed.

 

No, the factory farm animals don’t have it pretty fine. These animals live in horrifying conditions where they have feces and urine all over the place that produce ammonia in the air causing them to be blind. These animals are fed to be so big that they have joint issues and can barely walk. They don’t get to feel the wind breeze, get in contact with mother’s earth’s ground or see the sunlight, only time they do is when they are being transported to the slaughterhouse in a truck with no food or water for their long travel. Sorry, I don’t see this as a good life. Do your research on factory farming, and you will see that this type of farming is completely different from how it was back in the old days. Back in the traditional farms, people actually cared about the animals during the time that they were living and not just treating them as products in a factory.

[Phi for All]

 

Do you get your meat from farms that raise them ethically? Have you done your research on these farms or visited their location? Commercial meat which is 98% of what you see in the grocery store is a product of suffering and torture. Do you know that farms that raise animals ethically let the animals out in the pasture all day and they do not castrate them(they get to keep the parts they are born with)? Do you know that they let animals have sex the traditional way (a bull and a cow), no force, and no artificial insemination? Oh yes, our prehistoric ancestors needed them but in this day and age where you have access to the grocery store, there is no need to binge on meat. Especially meat that come from factory farms where they treat animals cruelly.

 

I eat prime and choice beef from a local butcher that was there when I went to high school. These guys are a legend in the area for all the reasons you list above. And I'd appreciate it if you stopped labeling us meat-eaters all as bingers. I'm pretty responsible in that area, because I'm old and want to get older.

 

I'll tell you what. If they'd let me, I'd slaughter my own cow for steaks (once at least, for the experience), and I'd make sure that cow knew how much I appreciated the sacrifice. I've held animals I loved for non-food reasons as they died in my arms, and I respected them all for what they gave up to live according to my whim. I don't take the relationship lightly, and I don't assume an animal is any less deserving of respect.

 

You need to understand. Domesticating animals so we don't have to hunt them is an intelligent thing to do, and nothing you can say changes that. We're omnivores, and we're already having big problems changing from a hunter/gatherer diet of meats and greens (for hundreds of thousands of years) to mostly grains (for the last ten to fifteen thousand). We're evolved to eat meat, and we've evolved a respectful and efficient way to get it. What you're arguing has no end. First you disrespect the spirituality of eating meat, then it will be no killing bugs, and pretty soon you'll wonder why all the plants have to suffer to feed us nasty humans.

[ModernArtist25]

Nothing spiritual on how they handle and treat animals here while they are still alive, Tyson meat farm:

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/tyson-foods-dumps-pig-farm-after-nbc-shows-company-video-f2D11627571

 

Perdue factory farm:

https://www.treehugger.com/green-food/perdue-chicken-farmer-invites-film-crew-his-farm-show-whats-really-going.html

 

I didn't see humane treatment or Healthcare there, just suffering.

Edited June 24, 2017 by ModernArtist25

[Phi for All]

Nothing spiritual on how they handle and treat animals here while they are still alive, Tyson meat farm:

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/tyson-foods-dumps-pig-farm-after-nbc-shows-company-video-f2D11627571

 

Perdue factory farm:

https://www.treehugger.com/green-food/perdue-chicken-farmer-invites-film-crew-his-farm-show-whats-really-going.html

 

I didn't see humane treatment or Healthcare there, just suffering.

 

Again, nobody said there aren't abuses. But that's not how it's all done.

 

You enjoy yourself. I've said my piece, and it doesn't seem to interest you in the least. Have fun with all your guilt.

[ModernArtist25]

No guilt here because I only support farms that raise their animals ethically. The animals gave up their lives for us like you said, least we can do is treat them with respect during their short life. And if I ever am not able to afford ethically raised meat, I would rather be a vegan than support cruel factory farms.

 

Here are a few farms offering ethically raised meat:

 

http://www.whiteoakpastures.com

 

http://www.halalpastures.com

 

Unlike Perdue or Tyson, these farms also allow people to visit their place... if you are still wary of how animals are raised.

Edited June 24, 2017 by ModernArtist25

[dimreepr]

No guilt here because I only support farms that raise their animals ethically. The animals gave up their lives for us like you said, least we can do is treat them with respect during their short life. And if I ever am not able to afford ethically raised meat, I would rather be a vegan than support cruel factory farms.

 

In England/Europe our farmers are heavily regulated to ensure their ethical treatment, so I can enjoy my burger guilt free

Followed by a couple of hours in meditative contemplation.

I would rather be a vegan than support cruel factory farms.

 

Here are a few farms offering ethically raised meat:

 

http://www.whiteoakpastures.com

 

http://www.halalpastures.com

 

Unlike Perdue or Tyson, these farms also allow people to visit their place... if you are still wary of how animals are raised.

 

Then do something about it, rally the troops and get them down to those unethical farms and demonstrate your collective anger; turning into a vegan changes nothing, you may as well bury your head in the sand.

Edited June 24, 2017 by dimreepr

[ModernArtist25]

By going vegan, people can reduce the impact of climate change, rainforest destruction, and pollution, while saving water and other precious resources. In fact, raising animals for food produces more greenhouse gas emissions than all of the cars, planes, and other forms of transportation combined. Vegans have my respect.

 

Facts on how animal agriculture affects the world that we live in:

http://www.cowspiracy.com/facts/

Edited June 24, 2017 by ModernArtist25