iNow

Don't forget that there are often more state level incentives on top of the federal stuff. I replaced my HVAC unit two years ago with a 17 SEER system, and got $700 back by rebate in a few weeks. I take your point about bailout versus incentive though. At least they're spending on good things instead of spa retreats for executives.

How exactly do you think the economy is going to be stimulated if the money is not put in places where it will be spent, or, more appropriate to this measure, where it will encourage lots of spending and production? Despite what the McCain/Palin ticket would have you believe, not all earmarks are bad.

When taken in context, bascule was clearly suggesting that he should each only be asked to defend comments which he himself has made, not the comments of others who are lumped into some ideological group with which you've associated him. You then tried to suggest that what he was doing with his examples ("should I ask blah blah blah about you, or this other thing about you?") were some sort of strawman... man. Okay, see the difference... guy?

You might be able to find more here: http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits

Good question.

Lol. Too true.

On the plus side, placed neatly into the bailout bill Bush signed last week was a long-sought and widely popular package of renewable energy incentives. They included an eight year extension of the U.S. solar investment tax credit for homeowners and businesses that install solar. It's also good since the package will enable utilities to benefit... ultimately from a 30% federal tax credit. It also erases the $2,000 tax credit cap for residential solar electric installations, which means that property owners now can claim a full 30% credit. I'm very happy to see this.

Stop feeding the troll.

The P&S Forum beckons...

I think it all has much more to do with all of the paste eaters and douchenozzles in our country who vote en masse, but maybe that's just me. Want to laugh and cry a little bit, all at the same time? The first 10 minutes of this are golden: http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/index.jhtml?episodeId=187567 The guest (Sarah Vowell) was damn funny too. Who needs qualified leadership when you have mob rule?

If it makes you feel any better, he's made this comment multiple times out on the stump. It's not a "debate specific" thing, nor a gaff... This is one of his talking points... Much like his comment about studying bear genetics in Montana and the money sent to help with that... McCAIN: "I'm not sure if this is a civil issue or a paternal one, but we need to stop these pork barrel projects blah blah blah." One source among many for the bear thing --> http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/08/mccain-bear-problem.php

That was badass. Thanks for sharing.

Moonman - While I appreciate the sentiment, and agree that Knupfers posting behavior here is not aligned with a desire to have an accurate understanding of the universe (more aligned with a desire to lie and misrepresent), but I must point out... we ARE apes and so were Neanderthals.

While I appreciate the sentiment, I think it's important to note that the money hasn't yet reached the problem, so it's far too soon to dismiss its impact. What we are seeing now is more the result of the psychology of the populace, removing their money from the system and exasserbating the problem. Also, European and Asian markets have been experiencing a down turn, one they did not really expect. This further makes the situation here worse. The markets are dropping, but the bailout has not yet reached them. We will see continued drops, but the action of the bailout will take more time to come to fruition. In sum, while many of us are frustrated the action was taken at all, it's far too early to dismiss that action as a failure, and without it matters could, in fact, be far worse than they presently are. It looks like the financial news out of Detroit played a large role in today's drop. http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/us-stock-indexes-add-losses/story.aspx?guid=%7B2067E099-1A1C-4B3B-B193-D2B70F65B7D4%7D&dist=msr_1 U.S. stocks on Thursday sprinted to fresh five-year lows, with the major indexes slammed for a seventh straight session as financial shares and General Motors Corp. tanked and global credit woes spurred panic-stricken investors to flee equities. "There are only two things that will turn this market around: One is any sign that the credit markets are thawing out, and the second is we finally find a level at which stocks have finally become too cheap," said Art Hogan, chief market strategist at Jefferies & Co. One year to the day after climbing to its peak of 14,164.53, the Dow Jones Industrial Average ($INDU: Dow Jones Industrial Average $INDU 8,579.19, -678.91, -7.3%) sank 678.91 points, its third-largest point loss on record, to finish at 8,579.19, pushing the blue-chip index under the 9,000 level for the first time since August 2003. The Dow's close leaves it 5,585.34 points, or 39.4%, under its year-ago high.

Fine, then. A diety is neither included nor excluded from evolution by natural selection, and the theory still works just fine (although, in my mind, the fact that it's not included in the theory means it's excluded, but whatever... I cannot keep up with the mental contortions and gymnastics which is the desire to argue in favor of deity).

Which brings us full circle, right back the point Bascule made that started this tangent: That's the point I was agreeing with. You're comparing apples and oranges. It's not a 1 to 1 comparison between the pre-Fed-Reserve economy and the present day economy, hence my comments implying that you're using spherical cows. The profound interconnectedness of present day global markets means that despite what we do internal to the country, we are very much NOT in charge when viewed from a broader perspective. As for the rest, I quite commiserate and share your frustration about our lack of power as the populace, and how we're no longer actually being represented by our representatives. As usual, we agree on much more than we disagree.

It was not my intent to suggest that he's living in a dream world of unicorns and thinks only his ideas will result in uptopia. That wasn't my point. I was trying to show how his ideas are, in fact, good ones, but that for them to work we would need to live in an idealized society (it was not my point to suggest that his ideas were to achieve that idealized society, just that they would only work in the way he intends within that idealization). I think part of the confusion may be because I said "represent a cow as a circle." The analogy I was going for is actually the "spherical cow." I was tired last night, and mistated. I may be wrong, but IMO the ideas espoused by Dr. Paul apply more to "spherical cows" than they do to the "actual cows" of our 21st century interconnected global economy. His views on how we should all participate (or, more appros pos... not participate) in "global" issues are also feeding my perception of his plans here. In theory, it would be helpful not to engage or intervene in the issues of other countries, but with the internet and the environment and everything else we are truly one planet, and 19th century approaches are not what we need to transcend the 21st century issues humanity faces collectively.

I am almost completely paper free. I much prefer reading things on my computer, especially since it's so much more portable and I can also search large files and applications for specific pieces in a hurry. Also, I go through so many papers and presentations and status reports and specs and blah blah blah that I'd need a whole warehouse to store it all if I did so on paper. Having access to a few network drives, and putting in place a creative folder structure, I can find what I need in seconds, no matter how old or obscure. I don't do much math in my postion, but I do write some code, and I find that the computer allows me to do this much cleaner than anything I put on paper. Further, even if I were writing math, the latex would work. If I need to do something where hand writing is required, I'll throw it into Paint or use the edit tool in PowerPoint. I think the last thing I printed at the office was a map from google that I could take with me in the car to find the office party. In the last several years, I haven't printed a single thing work related unless an older collegue asked for a printed copy. Printing is far too wasteful, far too unorganized, and doesn't allow the quick searches and edits that are so common in my dailies.

I don't know, mate. I was just responding to your question authentically. Sometimes, it slows us down if we are too rigid with our interpretations and we try to take everything very literally.

I don't care what color their shirt is if they're doing the right things, like providing maximal opportunities for renewables, environmental protection, healthcare, etc. They can call themselves the damned Whig party for all I care. It's not the label that is important, but the actions they are taking, the progress they are making, and the path on which they are setting us as a nation and a planet.

How exactly do you all think China has been able to steer itself toward such great success and progress, and to make such quick adjustments and changes to things like air quality at the Olympics? The stagnant gridlock in our congress is VERY MUCH a problem. I'm not saying differing views and ideas are not important... I'm saying we are at a time where we need much less talk and much more rock, and the partisanship tug of war is killing us (quite literally).

I keep thinking this same thing every time people bring up Dr. Paul, and his ideas. While they all work great on paper, those idealized situations are not reality. It's a bit like when mathematicians describe a cow as a circle. It makes the calculations cleaner and the descriptions much more straight forward, but clearly circles are not cows. The same goes for the economy. While these ideas are much more than nifty in theory, they fail to account for the very real dynamics of the densely interconnected world in which we presently find ourselves.

What makes you assume that any consensus achieved would be a blind one?

We have a system like that at work, and we can even record it then publish it later for people who were not able to attend directly... publishing the event like a movie, or with MC questions to ensure engagement. I agree, it's quite a useful system.

There's got to be some sort of "using far too many words and unnecessary legnth to try winning an argument" fallacy, right? If you can't fit it on an index card, you don't understand what you're talking about.