MigL

You're absolutely right. Of course that justifies breaking through a border, brutally killing 1400 people, and kidnapping several hundred more. See CharonY, I can extrapolate too.

I'm the one with the bad eyesight. Surely you must have seen the quote I included below my 'accusation'.

HaHa ! I guess if you have already convinced yourself of my guilt, it is easy to assume the worst about me. ( oops ! last time I said similar I got neg repped ) I have said many times there are plenty of guilty parties on both sides. But people, Israeli or Palestinian, are only responsible for the choices they, themselves make, not what others choose to do. And you have agreed with that. Yet some of us are clearly putting blame on one side only ... Yet I don't see you pushing back on String Junky assigning no blame whatsoever on some Palestinians who happen to be members of Hamas. He seems a little confused, as he thinks B Netanyahu is a member of Hamas. Maybe you should set him straight, or are you too busy chastising me for trying to provide a balanced view, and that the situation has gotten out of hand precisely because both sides refuse to take responsibility for their actions.

On the contrary, it means that in war , mistakes and accidents do happen. The 'fog' and all that ... But, if you don't have an open mind, and have already convinced yourself of someone's guilt, it is easy to assume the worst about them.

Here is a derivation ( some simple maths ) of the HUP as applied to a particle described by a deBroglie wave. Includes historical perspective and is well illustrated.

Sometimes it is best to consider what happens when approaching infinite extremes, not what happens at the infinite extremes. Edit Momentum cannot go to infinity. For massive particles the momentum is constrained by the speed ( must be less than c ). This then imposes a lower limit to the wave number, extent of the packet, or the 'box' you can put around a particle ( accuracy of position ).

That is not correct as written, but you may have meant something different ( wave number ? ) The wavelength is not involved at all, as it is simply the length of one oscillation. What is involved is the number of oscillations in the wave packet; the more compact (less oscillations ), the more defined its position. Since a compacted wave packet is composed of multiple differing frequency waves, by compacting it, and gaining positional information, we lose momentum ( proportional to frequency ) information. If, on the other hand, the oscillations comprising the wave packet are large we gain more accurate momentum information, such that, as the number of oscillations approaches infinite ( like a sine wave ) the momentum is almost exact, but the wave ( and particle's position ) is spread to almost infinite extent.

History, it seems, is not devoid of irony ... ... "The Israeli military suffered five wounded and one killed; Yonatan Netanyahu was Israel's sole fatality of Operation Entebbe, and had led Sayeret Matkal during the rescue effort – he was the older brother of Benjamin Netanyahu, who would later become Israel's prime minister.[21]" From the 1976 raid on Entebbe, Uganda Entebbe raid - Wikipedia

I can sympathize. We currently have one side that has little, if any, options left, and the other side which has options, but all available lead to equally bad, if not worse, outcomes. If the UN had any balls, or wasn't hampered by bad members, the situation should have been rectified in the 50s, before it got more and more out of hand with each passing year.

What other 'universes' are you talking about ? ( please present your ideas here, not in a pdf )

If I may clarify, I don't think anyone needs to be bombed for their actions, but the first several pages of this thread were decidedly one sided, and, while being shortly after Oct.7, still all the blame was put on Israel. Do I need to mention the names of the participants in the first several pages, or can people go back and read it for themselves ? I first engaged in this thread simply because it was so one sided, and I felt the need to provide a balancing viewpoint. A few others have since joined in, and that is still what we are attempting to do; provide a balance with an opposing viewpoint. This is NOT a one sided conflict and, other than the kids , there are no innocents in this conflict. Whether active participants, enablers, or people who let the bad actors have their way, there's plenty of blame to go around, in Gaza and in Israel. All I'm saying is Israel, and Jews, lost 6 Million people because the world didn't defend them almost 90 years ago. They will defend themselves this time. Because that's when Israel pulled out of Gaza, and established a 'security zone around it. Do I need to post a wiki link to it ??? No. That was in response to your claim that only 'longshot scenarios' were being presented. Clearly there are others. But you, TheVat, String Junky, and ( possibly ) INow, seem to think the only way forward is for Israel to 'bow down', and absorb terrorist attacks from organizations/governments based in the Palestinian state of Gaza, and controlled by a third player. I guarantee that is not going to happen. . So, by not considering other options, we are left with CharonY's other 'longshot' possibility; , because even you guys must realize that if Israel accepts a ceasefire this time, Hamas will do it again ( even worse ), and then it will be the end of Gaza and genocide.

Are we still talking about Gaza ? Because that is not how some of us see the situation. In 2005 Israel pulled out their occupying forces from Gaza, and pretty well left them on their own as a separate state. They did control border crossings into Israel, as any sovereign state does, to prevent armaments/suicide bombs from crossing. They also controlled sea access for the same security reasons, and their 'control' might be a little more strict because of past occurrences, but I also have to present a passport when entering the US ( did not need one 25 years ago ), and the Coast Guard controls sea access to the US mainland. The border between Gaza and the Sinai is controlled by Egypt, and I expect it is rather porous, and the entry point for those thousands of rockets Hamas fires at Israel. Yet even though the Egypt/Gaza border is also fenced, and 'controlled', no one, not even the UN, accuses Egypt of being an apartheid state, like they do Israel ( maybe if Israel starts letting arms/bombs through, the UN will stop calling them an apartheid state also ). But lets return to 2005. What did Gaza do with their newfound freedom ( except, of course, restrictions on importing arms, and exporting terror into Israel ) ? Did the build resorts along their beautiful beaches, to bring in foreign ( maybe even Israeli ) currency ? Did they drill for gas, within their limits of the South-East Mediterranean, an area rich in natural gas ( just ask the Israelis ) ? No to all the above. They allowed Hamas (who are controlled/supported by the Iranians ) to take over and pursue their strategy of 'revenge at any cost', which culminated on the Oct.7 intrusion into Israel by an effectively foreign state ( an act of war; just ask the Ukrainians ), the subsequent massacre of 1400 people, and the kidnapping of hundreds more. So, YES, they did have options other than 'the longshots'. Options which could have resulted in better lives for the Palestinians. Yet instead of holding them responsible for their choices and actions, the world ( other than the US ) is telling Israel they should accept a ceasefire ( wasn't there one in 2005 ? And who broke it on Oct. 7 ? ). That Israel should respond proportionally ( that isn't deterrence ). That Israel's response is criminal ( making no mention of the criminality of the incident that prompted the response ). That Israel is responsible for the bad choices Gaza made/makes/will continue to make. Manwhile Hamas and the iranians are laughing and saying "No matter what atrocities we perpetrate on Israeli civilians, the world continues to blame then. All is good; we can really step up the brutality of our next attack."

Sorry, but the first thing that came to mind is an oscillating lawn sprinkler. Powered only by water pressure, and manually selectable angle of coverage.

I would suggest that the 'blame game' is being played by all, including you and the writers of the NYT link. Why is the onus always on Israel to do this or that, as a means of resolving the issue ? Is it because they are expected to be reasonable , while Hamas/Palestinians are not ? Why is Israel expected to provide Palestinians with reasonable leaders when they themselves choose unreasonable ones like Hamas ? Why, in other words, are we absolving Palestinians from any responsibility in the matter ? You say Israel should worry about the fact that Hamas recruits from the families whose members were killed by the IDF, thereby ensuring a never-ending supply of fighters and continued Hamas presence; I say Palestinians should be worried that if the hardliners get their way, there are only 2.3 Million possible new recruits that they have to get rid of. Who do you think should worry more about these two worst case outcomes ? It seems only logical that those who have the most to lose should take more actions to prevent the worst case scenario, in the same way that I look both ways before crossing a road, not simply expecting car drivers to look out for me, as I would be much worse off in a car vs. me collision.

Yet repressive military force seems to counter terrorism quite well in places like Iraq under S Hussein, Russia/USSR, China, and a lot of South American countries under oppressive regimes. It is a non-viable solution for OTHER evident reasons. Palestinians need to present themselves with a viable alternative. They did not accept the PA, and will certainly not accept anything presented by Israel. So that is not a solution to the Hamas problem for Israel. What else have you got ? That is why I said as soon as Israelis are no longer afraid ( of the threat from Gaza, and other neighbors ), Netanyahu will be gone. If, on the other hand, Hamas is allowed to retain power( along with Hezbollah, and Iranian backing/interference ) then it is guaranteed that sooner, rather than later, someone even worse than Netanyahu will come to power and push for a 'final solution' to the Gaza problem. PS The English were subjected to the imminent threat of air raid sirens for a couple of nerve racking years, during the battle of Britain. Rockets fired into Israel from neighbors have been activating air raid sirens for about 50 years. I think that would scare and stress out most people who are just trying to live their lives.

And Bibi is just an election away from the dustbin of history. If Israelis are no longer afraid of incoming rockets and suicide bombs, that is. What 'election' will get rid of Hamas if Palestinians are no longer afraid of IDF retaliation ??? How many 'war crimes' would Gaza, and its effective government , Hamas, have perpetrated, through their indiscriminate rockets fired into civilian population, if it wasn't for Israeli tech, and keeping munitions out of Gaza ( that's what Hamas uses their tunnels for ), but some call those attempts a 'concentration camp'. I will agree that both sides have a long way to go to establish a lasting peace, but the solution for Israel is evident; for Gaza, not so much.

Attempting to compare the 'liberalism' ( or lack of ) of Gaza and Israel is akin to D Trump saying "There are good people on both sides".

Wait ...did you just imply I don't know what I'm talking about ? 😄 But seriously, we can both have opinions on the matter, n'est ce pas ? I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, most of the time, you have to fight for peace.

That would soil and ruin a perfectly good trash can ...

Maybe. But I happen to think that certain political systems/ideologies are prone to abuse, concentrating power at the top and eventually becoming dictatorships. I used Russia and China as examples because they are major players, but every country that has tried Communism has suffered the same fate. We have examples from history about the evils of Fascism, and that system also failed for the exact same reasons; ultimately, a few use the system to control the people and subjugate them. One could make the argument that pure ( Marxian ) Communism has been 'bastardized' and the unadulterated version has never been tried, and could be a utopia, but one could make the same argument for Fascism; that Germany could become soch an economic powerhouse during the 30s, indicates that the system could be beneficial. Too bad A Hitler and his collaborators decided to use that recovery as a war machine for their mad purposes. I'd be happy to continue this historical and political system discussion in another thread, as I fear we are venturing too far off the topic of Israel's supposed 'fascist' behavior with regards to Gaza.

LOL I can't decide whether you're making a slippery slope argument, or if you've become cynical and lost faith in the moral integrity of our fellow citizens. Maybe a little of both ?

If they want to inspire confidence in their product, and demonstrate they are worth the assessed value, they should put the AI in charge of the company. I, myself, think the current state of AI is slightly more relevant than social media, spitting out the 'best' response, chosen by an algorithm ) learning ? ) from a multitube of possibilities. That people are willing to assign that kind of value to this product demonstrates the depths of our gullibility, and the greed of market investors. Or, maybe ... I'm a 'Luddite'. But I guess this rant is off topic ...

Except that the two main places in the world where checks and balances have been totally eroded, and supposedly 'democratically' elected leaders have become rulers for life, are Russia and China, who profess to be Communist. Both Italy and Spain went directly from Monarchies to Fascism, so the population had little, if any, appreciation for Democracy. Germany did, for a few years since the end of WW1, but Hindenberg's Weimar Republic suffered the hyperinflation of the early 20s as well as the Great Depression; couple that with Versailles shame and it's a wonder it lasted as long as it did, even managing to keep going despite the first Nazi 'flirtation', the Biergarten Putsch in Munich, during which about 2000 Nazis marched on the city center, and A Hitler was subsequently arrested, only to much later succeed after winning party status and elections. Italy, on the other hand, having never been a Republic ( since Roman times ) quickly collapsed into Fascism when B Mussolini's similarly numbered 'black shirts' marched on Rome. Looking as the US 'flirtation' of Jan 6, I would think the US would have to have some really major problems, and an almost imminent collapse of the economy, for a similar event to succeed.

Do you think the West's flirting with 'Fascism' the past few years is even comparable to that of Germany, Italy or Spain in the 30s and 40s ? I I think even the US, under D Trump, or today's Hungary are orders of magnitude removed from the brutality of the Nazis and Fascists. Let's not lose historical perspective and make light of what really happened 80 years ago, and how reasonable people were manipulated ( or allowed themselves to be ? ) into becoming 'monsters'.

Nice summary JC. Everyone is quick to criticize Israel's actions, simply because they expect Israel to be 'reasonable' ( a requirement not made of Hamas ), . But no alternative solution is offered. They expect Israel to stop unilaterally, and just keep absorbing Hamas strikes against their population, After victimization throghout the middle ages, the Holocaust, and the constant attacks by neighboring states, how long are Israel, and Jews in general, expected to 'turn the other cheek' ( a New Testament ideology not required of Jews ). That being daid, I do not absolve Israel ( and Jews ) of expansionism and settler violence, but the only solution to the problem seems to be getting rid of all people who want to solve the problem with indiscriminate violence. And, at the moment, Hamas is the worst offender, and first problem that needs resolving. SAs for polls indicating Hamas support among Palestinians, keep in mind that V Putin won the last Russian election with 80 % of the vote.