# tar

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1. ## Requirement for two "nows" to grasp the idea of Simultaneity

This effect, which I untis an obvious consequence of high velocity toward or away from an electromagnetic wave is a new theory evidently because you say I am wrong and I am not. I believe that is the way the universe works. It is hard for me to accept a heat death of the universe because the whole universe is sending photons toward every other part of the universe. Said photons don't disappear until they hit another atom an raise an electron into a higher energy state. Then as atoms do they try to lose the energy by emitting a photon. No atom can reach a ground state because the rest of the universe is sending its energy in to it so i do not think the universe will suffer a heat death How is blue shift and red shift not science? I will be quiet. You are not answering honestly. You are answering with the relativity equation, like it is more real than reality. Reality makes more sense than how you say it works.
2. ## Requirement for two "nows" to grasp the idea of Simultaneity

why yes relativity equations would have the traveling twin not age as much as the stay at home the pulsar cycle count experienced by both the stay at home and the moving twin would be exactly the same, thus invalidating the relativity equation any differences in the clocks of the moving and stationary observers can be explained by red shift and blue shift where the frequency of light changes, not distance or the speed of light or time Matter of fact, if you travel at relativistic speeds the universe in front of you is highly blue shifted and is hitting you with tremendous energy and the universe behind you is highly red shifted and visible light is hitting you as microwaves and radio waves. Gamma rays coming in your front window, radio waves out the back. On the way back the traveling twin will see the approaching clocks running fast, making up for any slow count on the way out.
3. ## Requirement for two "nows" to grasp the idea of Simultaneity

I believe relativity has failed in constructing dark energy and dark matter from the motion of a super nova in another galaxy. I believe relativity has failed in proposing other realities and other dimensions that have no bearing on our reality. I believe relativity has failed in causing people to think the universe is strange and not comprehensible, when everything actually fits together and works quite flawlessly. I do not yield to you that yiou have it right and I have it wrong. Answer the pulsar thought experiment. If your equations come out with the count different, you have made some bad assumptions, or your equations are incorrect. Perhaps, but I try and read and understand QED and GR and SR stuff. I have developed my own understanding of what makes sense and what does not. Usually, if something is true it is true in more than one way. That is, you could sync GPS clocks without using relativity equations, using only distance and light travel time. I f the orbiting clock runs slow or fast you apply the needed correction. well suppose you have a pen pal on a planet circling a nearby star, where light travel time separates your nows by 3 years. When you get a message from her you know she sent it 3 years ago. If she was 36 when she wrote it, you know she is 39 now. Two nows. When she gets your reply she will be 42. She is, in reality only one age, as you are only one age. And you increment your years at the same time. Yes but our now includes light from alpha Centauri which it has for many past nows. Although we can not be certain there is not a gamma ray burst that will hit the Earth on Tuesday on its way, we can be absolutely sure that in our now that occurred a minute ago, there was light from Alpha in space a light minute out because we just saw it.
4. ## Requirement for two "nows" to grasp the idea of Simultaneity

could you describe spacetime, using space and time as the a priori understandings? I do not understand Chinese, although a 3 year old Chinese kid does. That does not mean I do not understand reality. Math is a language. One thing stands for another. My question to you, is can the forces between two wires be explained with magnetic and electric fields, without using muon decay?
5. ## Requirement for two "nows" to grasp the idea of Simultaneity

a 45 degree line exists only on your mental graph it has no analog in reality imagine the incorrect transformations that are done when someone is trying to set one thing in the place of another and describing a four dimensional thing on a two dimensional media my contention is that the mind deals with an idea as happening all within ones view or imaginary view that however is not how the universe works the universe is intricate beyond comprehension, huge beyond comprehension, long lived beyond comprehension
6. ## Requirement for two "nows" to grasp the idea of Simultaneity

Except time shortening has no meaning. Distances shortenining has no meaning. Kant thought there were two a priori understandings, that needed no, in fact had no definitions or components. Those two were time and space. Everyone knows what time is and everyone knows what space is. It makes no sense to say that time shortens or space shortens. It has no meaning. All to balance an equation. Senseless. no one knows what spacetime is no one responded to my thought experiment have the traveling twin count the pules of a pulsar have the stay at home count have the twins compare their count upon the return of the traveling twin any blue or red shift experienced by the traveling twin of the pulses will exactly reverse on the trip back the count will be the same because the traveling twin never left the galaxy
7. ## Requirement for two "nows" to grasp the idea of Simultaneity

beecee, What I am arguing here is that the results from various experiments align with the equations of SR and GR but there are other ways to explain the results than to suggest that time dilates and distances shorten. The mere idea of such things is counter the idea of c. c is the distance light travels in a particular time. You can't have c unless you have time remaining the same and distance remaining the same. If the distance.shortens then light would cover the span in a quicker time. This would invalidate the statement that light speed is invariant. What I suggest is happening is that people do not switch properly between two frames of reference. You can for instance be in the same inertial frame but distant from another observer or from a part of the experiment.u My example of the pulsar proves my argument. You cannot have the next pulse in a second unless the light wave you are going to see in a sec is right now existing in space 186,000 miles from here. The benefit of considering my proposal is that it corresponds to actual reality. The universe is huge and longlived beyond comprehension. It is incorrect to imagine the universe as being able to be seen all at once. My universal now is not meant to be seen, as light is the media we experience and it will take what is happening now elsewhere time to get here. However, there is something happening everywhere right now. That is my argument. There are two nows. One that sees the whole universe as photons coming in from a far, having been emitted a sec, or two or an hour or two or a year or two or a billion or two years ago. This is the actual way we see the universe all at once. The other now is real, things are actually happening outside our view, because the light has not reached us yet, but we know they have to be happening now because we see them later. This other now is the universal now that for any one observer has to be imagined as happening now for an observer in those other locations. But for any one location there is past, present and future. It is a simple thing to imagine everything happening now, and determining what happened elsewhere when, nased on the image and the distance. Experiments have to consider this other now. Everything we see in space has already actually happened. That is if we see a quasar filled with first generation stars we can know in our imaginations that right now, in that area of space, there is likely a galaxy like the Milky way, or Andromeda filled with third generation stars. We of course will never see it because the light from the current situation is billions of years away. and we don't live that long, but that does not mean it is not what is happening now in that are of space where we see the quasar.
8. ## Requirement for two "nows" to grasp the idea of Simultaneity

SwansonT, In a way, the experiment has already been done, referencing your graphs. the magnetic field of the Earth is in one orientation when the clocks are headed east and in the other orientation when the clocks are heading west. In one direction magnetic north is to the beam's right. In the other direction it is to the beams left. beecee, You say there isn't when you use it all the time. If the Mars rover is doing something now, yet we see what it did later, there are two nows. One that is what is happening now, here, and one that is what is happening everywhere at the moment we are in here. relativity equations work, but that does not mean they are correct and common sense is not. there could be confirmation bias in the way the experiment is set up, and differences in results from expected results are often accounted for after the fact relativity is real, but I believe it has to do with light travel time more than with gravity and velocity I am not thinking it is correct to apply angular velocity equations to huge spinning objects because you cannot see the whole thing at once and the equation is immediate The observable universe is all we have, and all we will ever be affected by. If something not contained in the observable has an effect on the observable universe, and we detect that effect, than the thing we considered earlier not in the observable universe would be observable and hence within the observable universe, so talking as if there is something outside the observable universe is without purpose and value. then not than
9. ## Requirement for two "nows" to grasp the idea of Simultaneity

I am making the Earthbound frame special because that is the one we all experience, give or take several seconds. If the universe began at the big bang, then there is a T=0. All objects and events happening now in the universe are the same age in reference to the big bang.
10. ## Requirement for two "nows" to grasp the idea of Simultaneity

I am working on that. I need more information about the orientation of the clocks in the planes. Atomic clocks work on counting the decaying particles of Cesium. The detectors are in a certain direction from the emitting portions. In a moving plane the detector is maybe moving toward or away fromnor the emitter. Doppler shiftwise if you are moving toward a pulse you will count more pulses in a given time than if you are moving away. The data from the various clocks show small variations of readouts from the moving clocks and the stationary clocks. Some of the variations are explained in one direction by gravitation differences in terms of the altitude and distance from the center of the Earth and other differences are explained the motion. The differences are small and not way far off normal error tolerances and there are motions and accelerations not taken into consideration, in terms of time of year and time of day during various takeoffs and landings. One thing about electrons and photons and particles is they tend to move in a straight line but always in reference to the sum total of all the magnetic and gravitational fields it is moving through. When you conduct an experiment on the Earth the Earthbound clocks do not know they are supposed to be stationary. The Earth is rotating around its axis, The Earth is revolving around the Sun. The Sun is rapidly revolving around a huge source of gravity and magnetic fields that are strongest toward Sagittarius. All in all the differences in the clocks are small and the data is wedged into gravitati.onal equations from relativity and motion equations from relativity to account for the small differences. I submit that if I had two "stationary" cesium clocks, they would show differences to the same magnitude as the differences witnessed in the relativity experiment depending on how they were oriented.c One possible experiment to maybe see if my hypothesis is true is to take two identical Cesium clocks and mount one on a platform suspended within a structure that could rotate around four different axis through the center of a cube and its corners. the Axis could be oriented toward and away from the Great Attractor, the Center of the Milky Way. the Sun and the Center of the Earth. I would be possible to program the platform to position the Cesium clock in the same orientations as if it were traveling around the Earth in that direction or this. Maybe, but I don't think so, Consider this thought experiment. Have two twins count the pulses from a pulsar and then send one travelinhe g fast toward the pulsar. The traveling twin will be running into the waves and will see them blue shifted and will count more of them per minute than the twin on Earth. The pulsar is only sending out one set of waves and traveling twin is counting the wave crests that have not yet reached the Earth. On the way back the traveling twin will be traveling with the waves and will see the next wave coming to the ship as red shifted compared to how the Earth bound twin sees them and doubly red shifted in terms of how she saw them on he way out. Like if you were to count the waves on the way out to the oil platform and count the wave crests on the way back. When you return your count of wave crests is exactly the same as the count the guy on shore counted.
11. ## time travel is not possible

The world is completely connected. Everything fits. The planets cycle the sun the sun revolves around the center of the galaxy, the galaxy spins in relation to the great attractor. Every molecule, every atom has a history and a present state and a likely future condition. No part of the whole can be removed from its current state and inserted in a different time, because the past has already happened in total and the future has not yet happened. The whole universe fits together seamlessly. No way to exist in another time without taking the whole universe with you. If you take the whole universe with you you are effectively where you began. No time travel is possible.
12. ## Requirement for two "nows" to grasp the idea of Simultaneity

So relativity says the twins will age differently and I say that is nonsense, Anything that is true about how the traveling twin experiences the clocks at home and on the ship will be reversed on the trip back. The flow of time is consistent everywhere, only appearances differ, and everything adds back correctly as neither twin ever leaves reality. Both twins will experience the other in slow motion bhecause of the doppler red shift. On the way back they will see each other's clocks blue shifted. Clocks will be in sync when they reunite. Actually if you want to add reality to the thought experiment, the traveling twin will be traveling so fast the the visible light waves coming from the direction she is going will be blue shifted so much that they will be experienced as high frequency high energy gamma waves and the ship will likely not survive.
13. ## Requirement for two "nows" to grasp the idea of Simultaneity

MigL it absolutely does exist and it is not nonsense, Let me prove it to you. If you witness in your telescope a pulsar and it pulses at a rate of one cycle from highest amplitude to highest amplitude in one second and said pulsar is figured to be 150 light years from here, there HAS TO BE 28,840,000 sine waves in the space between the Pulsar and here, RIGHT NOW. If not, you wouldn't see the peak that is 196,000 miles out, in a second and you do see it. Md65536, the order of events isdifferent to three observers in the same frame of reference if for instance three observers in a triangle light a signal light when they see the lightning strike. However the lightning strike occurred only once at a particular time and the various signals occurred when the light from the strike reached each station. They were causally connected because the light reaching each station caused the signal to be lit. There used to be a ferry boat that served as the station at Port Imperial. It is gone now, But an observer with a powerful telescope on planet 25 ly from here would still see it sitting there on the shore of the Hudson across from Midtown Manhattan. I need no relativity equations to know this. Regards, TAR Mr. Hanke, But if two events occur distant to two observers, lets say a light second away in opposite directions and the observers say they happened now, the events really happened a sec ago. So there is the now they each witness the event at the same time and there is the now when the event actually happened. That is it happened now, in the universal sense, a second ago. An observer at the event would have witnessed it a sec ago. The Mars Rover is doing something now that we won't see for 20 minutes. So relativity says the twins will age differently and I say that is nonsense, Anything that is true about how the traveling twin experiences the clocks at home and on the ship will be reversed on the trip back. The flow of time is consistent everywhere, only appearances differ, and everything adds back correctly as neither twin ever leaves reality.
14. ## Requirement for two "nows" to grasp the idea of Simultaneity

Einstein uses a lightning strike to establish the idea of simultaneity but fails to consider the distance of the two observers from the lightning strike. My contention is that in order to understand simultaneity and discuss it and refer to the order of events and the appearance of time slowing and quickening and distances foreshortening and such, one needs to float the existence of two nows. One where everything is happening in the entire universe right now at the same time, and one in reference to an observer in a location, moving at the speed of the frame of reference he or she inhabits. It is true that NO other observer is in the same time as you are, because all events happening distavnt from you are experienced by you after they occur. But there is a way to take a God's eye view and consider something happening in every location in the universe, right now. Things happening 196000 miles away will be apparent in your personal now in a sec. But they actual happened a second ago when the happened at the same time as everything else that happened in the Universe a sec ago. For instance, the Sun or a star is in your sky now if it is not cloudy. It is immediate. The photons left the object 8 mins ago or 3 years ago, but they are arriving at the back of your eye now. That star is shining now, in the God's eye view of things ,too.
15. ## Requirement for two "nows" to grasp the idea of Simultaneity

Einstein uses a lightning strike to establish the idea of simultaneity but fails to consider the distance of the two observers from the lightning strike. My contention is that in order to understand simultaneity and discuss it and refer to the order of events and the appearance of time slowing and quickening and distances foreshortening and such, one needs to float the existence of two nows. One where everything is happening in the entire universe right now at the same time, and one in reference to an observer in a location, moving at the speed of the frame of reference he or she inhabits. It is true that NO other observer is in the same time as you are, because all events happening distavnt from you are experienced by you after they occur. But there is a way to take a God's eye view and consider something happening in every location in the universe, right now. Things happening 196000 miles away will be apparent in your personal now in a sec. But they actual happened a second ago when the happened at the same time as everything else that happened in the Universe a sec ago. For instance, the Sun or a star is in your sky now if it is not cloudy. It is immediate. The photons left the object 8 mins ago or 3 years ago, but they are arriving at the back of your eye now. That star is shining now, in the God's eye view of things ,too. My suggestion is to consider everything, every object, every event as happen now, existing now. 13.787±0.020 billion years after the big bang. Then considering everything you see or experience as being old news about what happened earlier. The unfortunately is not an actual way to experience other star's nows.We have to just imagine what they might be doing the many years after what they appear to be doing now. In that other now, the God's eye view now, where everything is currently happening. One additional suggestion is to consider everyone on Earth existing in the same now, give or take several seconds.
16. ## tar    Markus Hanke

One such example is in quantum particle equations where the probability of a particle being in this position or that, a meter from the center of the atom or in Cleveland, does not take into consideration the travel time of the particle from the center of the atom to Cleveland.

1. These questions come back directly to the idea of dark energy and dark matter where the existence of such is required by observations of motion of matter seen in distant galaxies following the apparent motion of a supernova within said distant galaxy.  Where motion is concerned you need a velocity and a direction, neither which are currently measurable in said distant galaxy.  The light travel time from one end of our galaxy to the other in measured in thousands of years.  Such is the case in a distant galaxy as well. So not only is the motion measured old news in  terms of millions of years, but what is happening at the closer side of said galaxy and what is happening at the far side, can not be considered as happening at the same time.  So an gas equation can not be applied to that whole galaxy at once.

2. Applied to the Twin paradox with the stationary twin aging faster than the traveling twin, the idea of reality and relativity comes in to play again, for from the vantage point of the traveling twin, she is stationary and the Earth is moving away at a high velocity.  So it is the Earth bound twin that appears to age slowly.  And on the trip back, all appearances are reversed and by the time the twin returns everything is in sync again.

3. Please open a thread on this, rather than post on my profile. Thanks!

17. ## tar    Markus Hanke

So, on the idea of an observer.   There is NOT an observer that can experience two  events, happening at the same time AT the same time, if the two events are separated by a distance.  Light travel time prevents such an experience.  Most models include a super observer that sees the two distant events at once.

I disagree with this notion as it is not realistic.

1. Please open a thread on this rather than post on my profile - that way the community can discuss it together.

2. !

Moderator Note

I second this, officially. Chat is not to be used as a substitute for the forums

18. ## How can Space, the volume of the Universe, be bent?

StringJunky, That is what I am looking to discuss. Einstein talks about a lightning strike as a device to establish simultaneity, but does not account for the distance of each observer from the strike there are a number of inconsistencies and impossibilities that arise using relativity equations. One such hard to square issue is that of the speed of light being constant and defined as a travel time over a certain distance. How can you use this as a standard when both time and distance are warped with high velocities and large gravitational fields? the difficulty is an imagination can place two observers at two different points at the same time, but since they are in actuality separated by a distance, NOTHING can happen at the same time in both places only an event that happened half way between would be noticed by both observers at the same time
19. ## How can Space, the volume of the Universe, be bent?

except, Einstein assumes an observer that views both the stationary observer and the moving observer at the same time, in order to compare what they each observe at each moment. This makes the comparison mute as the third observer, that compares the two, has his or her own reference frame and can therefore NOT guarantee anything is happening at the same time.
20. ## How can Space, the volume of the Universe, be bent?

I have read Einstein's train thing and the idea of Simultaneity needs to be agreed upon in order to make any sense of anything. I think you have to consider I have been suspended from Twitter, shadow banned on Gab and now a watcher or bot deleting my sentences as I write.
21. ## How can Space, the volume of the Universe, be bent?

Thread, The OP had some interesting observations. One was of particular import to me. Any point in space contains everything. Not sensible at first glance, but if you think about it, information from the furthest galaxies in the observable universe is arriving as we speak to all points of Earth's surface facing in the direction of said shiny body. Interesting that if you look at a ballgame and I look at a ball game we both see the whole scene, and we are stationed at different points. Regards, TAR
22. ## tar    Trurl

Trurl,

I like your electric fields idea regarding the applications of the twelve sections of the sphere but since I last posted on that thread I have run into a major roadblock to all the applications I was considering.  The subdivisions do NOT appear to be of equal area as I had figured earlier in the thread, using a spherical calculator.  I made some incorrect assumptions about angles and unfortunately it appears the subdivisions near the center of each diamond are  of greater area then nearer the corners.    So most applications are thwarted until I come up with a way to have each designated subsection span an equal area.

There are still some applications that will work if exactness is not required.  If you quarter a section each of the quarters is of equal area, so if you want to divide the sphere into 48 equal sections for your application the scheme is still good.

One such idea is to for instance mount 48 cameras on a tower or aircraft each pointing in the direction of the center of a quartered section of each diamond.  Then the output of the cameras could be sent in  a one to one way to 48 screens positioned in the same pattern around a viewer.  Thus placing the viewer at the top of the tower or in the craft.

1. Show previous comments  1 more
2. So the 48 cameras are some sort of virtual reality?

Application: What if you divide the Earth into sections to map satellites?

What about video game 3D world positioning?

The changing shape and propagation of the radio wave?

It is hard for me to think of something mathematical that doesn’t have an application no matter how small.

I know my application suggestions are not descriptive and it would take much work to complete them, but I envision a 3D model manipulated by change, shape, and division of spheres. Instead of editing polygons you’d edit spheres. If you tried 3D printing you know the inside of the model is structured like a bridge trusses. Those supports could be your spheres divisions.

3. Nice,i

I do need to learn some CAD and Rendering programs.

There are many applications I think for the general Sperical Rhombic Dodecahedral structure.

And interesting aspect is it filled with symmetries and dual figures. And it is the basis for  a dense packing scheme that puts 12 spheres around a center sphere.  This pattern is a cuboctrahedral pattern that when built out, putting always 12 spheres around each sphere in the same pattern it looks more and more like a cuboctahedron as you build out, and contains 3 intersectinng square planes and 4 intersecting hexagonal planes.

The math is already there, the switch is to think of a cube with the corners cut off to the center of the edges.  The center of each edge is the center of a 1/12th section of the sphere.

I am working on a scheme to each sphere in the scheme.  The scheme fills space and is completely scalable and very symmetric, having direct analogs to the cube, the sphere, the tetrahedron and the cuboctahedron.

I like your ideas.  Please use the system freely. It is a mathematical system so I can not claim any ownership.  What I will claim is the discovery of the way to break the sphere into TAR radians using the four axis of the cube that extend through the corners, assigning a color to each 360 group of great circles and using the intersection of the two colors in each of the diamonds to name each degree sized area.  I recently found out that all the degree sized area are not equal in area, so there is as of yet not a clean mathematical way to use the system.

Where I see some possibility however is in labeling the spheres in the dense packing situation.  There is a relationship between the spheres in the dense packing system and the TAR radian system but I have not discovered it yet.

4. a scheme to label each sphere in the scheme

23. ## Dividing a sphere into twelve "identical" shapes.

Mit have gotten my lowers and uppers and lefts and rights fouled up. Like this, is the way the current number system goes. 10 7 4 1 11 8 5 2 12 9 6 3 Regards, TAR2
24. ## If I can imagine it, it is possible!

Actually I don't think the universe is weird at all. It fits together quite nicely. Works better than the model.
25. ## Dividing a sphere into twelve "identical" shapes.

The four images posted are the 4 equatorial diamonds look for the small pink numbers in the middle of each diamond the number system is simple and elegant, unlike the arbitrary numbering I used earlier in the thread to imagine it , 1 is to the upper right of 2, 2 is the equatorial diamond where the date line on the Earth passes through the center, 3 is to the lower left of 2 then rotate as the Earth rotates to diamond 5, again an equatorial diamond. 4 is to the upper left, 6 is to the lower right. rotate to equatorial diamond 8. 7 is to the upper left 9 to the lower right rotate to number 11 10 is to the upper left 12 is to the lower righ Unlike my earlier numbering system this works out perfectly. The order is easy to follow AND you will notice a pick dot in the left corner of each diamond. This signifies the origin of an X Y type grid in each diamond where the degrees go up to the right in the one colors wheel and up toward the top in the other color's wheel. Each color thus spans six diamonds around the sphere and intersects with each of the other color wheels twice. This system is potentially useful because the square degrees are all named and of the same area. spheres have 41,253 square degrees Compare that with this system that shows 43,300 diamond degrees also notice the 3 point under each equatorial diamond Red, yellow, green and blue axis points respectively
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