tar

Swansont, Well of course you are right about all those things we didn't notice, and science found them for us...but we are talking about dark matter and dark energy here which, for I can see exist ONLY in the equations. That is only in the model and the imagination. You can't say "well that explains illness" like you could when we found germs. Regards, TAR2

Well no dimreepr you can't, and I see your point. The crackpot has stuff working in his or her mind that any scientist knows can not work in reality. But the other side of the coin is that sometimes I know that what a scientist says is stuff the model says, or the math says or a probability equation says, and I know, from common sense, that it is nonsense. What I mean is my senses give me information that is NOT consistent with what the scientist says. The thing fits the model but makes no sense. For instance scientist say that the models and the math tell them the universe is 79% dark energy. That makes no sense. We have been in the universe since we started noticing stuff. How did me miss 79% of what there is to notice? It seems to me a thing is true if it is true in many ways, not just one. If dark energy is 79 percent of the universe and now we know that, we should be able to explain 79 percent of the the things we only understood 21 percent of before the discovery. I suppose that is the other reason I left the board. I think scientists are just people, same as religious folk. I give no special wonderfulness to people that believe more in their model than they believe in their neighbor.

I enjoyed this board a lot. Made some friends and had some great discussions and learned a lot. Got run off by Hillary Trolls. Came back to post my solution to the spherical coordinate challenge I had posed to myself. Saw this thread and had to respond.O It is important to me that crack pots and scientist recognize that they are both working from essentially the same viewpoint. A human viewpoint. And the world is a whole lot bigger than any one person's image of it. For that matter it is a whole lot bigger and more complex than all the images of all the scientists, since man started communicating with him or herself. The scientist and the crackpot have almost exactly the same brain, with all the same chemicals and sections with various functions. Bodies match pretty closely too and the same chemicals are in the brain with the same dopamine/serotonin/norepinephrine in both the scientist and the crackpot, working on in most cases the same problems, with the scientist having more information and the results of more investigations and a better understanding of the collective models. However it is important for the scientist to realize that math is happening in the mind, in the imagination. It is not affecting the outside world until it is used to build something or create something in the outside world or in some other mind. Models of the world are just that. Internal analogous representations of outside the brain reality. Knowing the math means you know the model. The model, by definition is incomplete. It is not reality itself. If reality fits the model it is because the model is consistent and well designed. But reality is under NO compunction to fit the model. Imagination can be wrong. Optical illusions can give the eyes and brain misinformation. Old age can dull the hearing. Taste buds can be dulled by spices, matching facilities in the brain can get old and once sharp minds can become a little dull and slow. Point being, I have great respect for the crackpot, because I am one. The difference between me and a scientist is slight. Has mostly to do with experience and knowledge of conventions. The actual world remains exactly the same regardless of our knowledge of it. On Earth we change stuff all the time. In space we just have moved a few rocks and sent out radio signals. Just because you imagine something does not make it possible. What is possible is what we build our imaginations from.

I do not believe the imagining of something makes it possible. I believe it works the other way 'round. When we imagine something it is an "image" of reality. The images we float though our minds and combine and synthesize in various manners are made up of sensory information we gleaned from reality. What we thought about before, what we saw, heard, felt, smelt, tasted or experience through any sense, existed, was possible, had to be, in order for us to sense it in the first place. Our brains "matched" what it imagined against what the eyes, ears, fingers, nose, tongue, inner ear, emotions, pleasure/reward system noticed about reality before. It is a must that reality fit itself. It is NOT a must that our image of reality fit reality. In fact just thinking it, does not manifest into reality that others can experience. You have to do something to bring it into reality. You have to communicate your thought, or build a model, or adjust reality in some way to contain your image. That is, the greater the number of things about reality that have to change in order for your idea about reality to be correct, or possible, the less likely it is that you are correct or that the thing is possible. If nothing about reality has to change in order for your image of reality to be correct, then you have it exactly right. Example. You cannot contain the universe within your skull. You brain is a tiny finite size and consist only of images of what actually is.

TAR spherical coordinate system consists of designating the four three points adjacent to the South pole four point as Red, Yellow, Green and Blue, looking at the South Pole, moving counter clockwise around the pole. Each of the four threepoints becomes the center of rotation of an axis going through the center of the sphere. These are analogous to the four axis of a tetrahedron. Looking at them from the south, each axis can be imagined as putting out an infinite number of great circles that intersect at the other end of the axis on opposite side of the sphere, The line going through the South pole is the 0/360 line and the other lines are designated in degrees in a clockwise direction around each of the four axis. Twelve diamonds are described by drawing the great circles at 0 degrees, 60 degrees, 120, 180,, 240, 300 and 360. The 0, 60, 120 are the same circle as the 180, 240, 300 but retain them all because the intersections of certain of the degrees on the six diamonds that are furthest from the axis ends, around the middle of the sphere, in reference to each axis, allow a description of every possible direction from the center of the sphere with two coordinates. Diamond 1 through 12 are numbered as follows. 1 Red 180-240 Blue 120-180 2 Yellow 240-300 Blue 60-120 3 Green 300-360 Blue 0-60 4 Yellow 180-240 Red 120 180 5 Green 240-300 Red 60-120 6 Blue 300-360 Red 0-60 7. Green 180-240 Yellow 120-180 8 Blue 240-300 Yellow 60=120 9 Red 300-360 Yellow 0-60 10 Blue 180-240 Green 120-180 11 Red 240-300 Green 60-120 12 Yellow 300-360 Green 0-60 Notice each color appears 6 times, the six 60 sections. So if you have a point in space at the center of a sphere, and designate a South pole surrounded by four tetrahedral axis you designate one as Red and the whole system is determined and every direction in space can be designated with color degree, color degree and every point in space describable by adding a distance to the direction. Copyright Thomas A. Roth Aug 8 2021

Right. is my point. The leader of the free world, happened to have enjoyed, as a millionaire, the favors of ladies, in his many encounters with such. Such ladies often got something for their favors. It does not make Trump the devil. There is, in the apt mind, the ability to hold two contradictory ideas. To denounce a person's treatment of women, while lauding their ability to command the discussion for two years with tweets. Trump remains the most powerful person in the world. This is higher status than you or I have achieved. He must have some capability to rise to this position. Since he is a millionaire himself, I doubt he was bought, and I don't think he is subject to the pressures that Wellington group or the Koch brothers might bring to bear. He is an actual strong leader, with good ideas and speaks the truth, rather than playing identity politics. He gets things done, and takes decisive action. I think part of the problem, since the election is grief. Hilary was on her way to be the first woman president, and when she lost, the hopes and dreams of millions were dashed. I recently lost my dad, and looked up again the five stages of grief. I knew them from before, as I looked them up when I was getting laid off my job, as everybody else was too, and I recognized the stages of grief being run through by myself and the people around me. One of the stages is denial, and I think a large part of our country has been in this stage since the election. If you were a Hillary supporter, look up the five stages of grief and reflect a moment upon which stage you are in. One day you will arrive at acceptance, but judging by this thread, I would guess it is not imminent. Regards, TAR just noticed I dropped another 3 rep points no idea why what I am saying is at all wrong or evil I am out again. You guys are hopeless. You seem to enjoy responding to my posts, so I am thinking I am at least making you think. Unfortunately I hate neg reps, and don't enjoy accruing them when I make a good argument. Sorry to challenge your narrative, but it needs challenging, and the real world needs to be lived in. You need me and I need you. The middle ground needs to be inhabited. Figure it out on your own. I am out. Deleting my favorite. You are on your own for a while. Disgusted, TAR

I have been in corporate America, (a Japanese owned company) and I remember a year were we will losing money and Japan was keeping us open. I was smoking a cigarette and looking out in the parking lot at hundreds of late model cars, each representing an employee with a family that supported the local shoe maker, day care, grocery store...etc. I decided that we were winning, just by being in business.

So Swansont, did the lady that sat with Trump in first class consent to the groping for many minutes and decide to leave when it got to heavy, as I said, or does the incident amount to rape and require the removal of our president from office?

A structure that allows people to buy as little or as much coverage as they desire, unencumbered by mandates and fines for not purchasing insurance. By getting the medical community together with the insurers, the hospitals and doctors and structuring a system that works. Perhaps if we put a 20% tariff on goods coming in from Mexico, we can pay for the wall. The thought is, as in trickle down, that if employers have more money to spend, they will spend it on research and development, productivity improvements, and wages and salaries, thus spurring the economy and increasing tax receipts, across the board, plus repatriating 20% of off shore income is better than getting 40 percent of zero.

He also campaigned on infrastructure spending, more sensible trade deals and deals with Iran...all things that he is having trouble moving in congress because the dems have a very unsensible no vote prior even reading the proposed legislation. Nancy famously said we would read what was in Obamacare AFTER we passed it, so please don't use the argument that the republican legislation is brought in the night. The tea party shutting down government under Obama is no less stupid and non-middle ground seeking, than the dems current stance.

The president does not make the legislation. He asks for it to be made. He wants to repeal and replace Obama care, simplify and lower taxes to promote business and reclaim money that has flowed offshore to avoid our punishing tax code, build a wall to prevent illegal entry of drugs and human traffic into our nation. He has asked for these things, pushed for these things and given reason for these things. If the dems don't want to give up progressive goals, and block the legislation at every turn, it is not the president's fault that nothing is getting done. Ten Oz, I did not advocate other countries changing their laws to allow our beef. I brought it up that there are reasons for other countries to ban some of our imports, but not reason to block our other very vetted and tested products in other areas. Regards, TAR

Ten Oz, I failed to write legislation, and that is your problem with my position? That is what the people we elected to congress are there for, to govern. Currently the only policy the dems have is resist, or impeach. It is those folks that need to make the hard choices and flesh out the middle ground so that we all can move forward. Make the compromises required to pay the bills. save the world and keep our country rich and strong. It is folly for the dems to think the world could be saved without the capital, technology and systems in place in our corporations and private businesses. These entities are not the "rich" that the tax breaks are benefiting at the expense of the poor. These people are the ones growing the food, building the dams, shipping in resources from around the world, building the factories and airports and ports that make the place tick. The rich are not our enemy, the rich are all of us in this country. Our weakest are fatter and more comfortable than the strongest in some countries. (not literally, but on the whole the case, as there are areas in some countries where shanty towns and filth flowing down the street is easy to find, where most areas of this country, the U.S.A. have indoor plumbing and heated buildings and fully stocked grocery stores, hospitals, universities, hardware stores and gas stations within a short drive, if not walk. My position is not that we should eat and the rest of the world should starve. My position is that if I cut down the forest, moved the rocks, plowed and harrowed the fields, planted the grass, and raised some sheep or cows or goats on it, then it is me that gets to choose whether I milk the cow or eat it. As a society we have parsed things out and arranged things so that we can both eat bacon and eggs for breakfast, and chicken salad for lunch, and a steak for dinner with ice cream for desert. Other countries can arrange their lives in the same manner should they make the effort. We have built dams and pumped water from the aquafer to accomplish our way of life. Others can copy us or do it their own way, but I don't need to eat kelp to save the world for someone else. Consider a hungry child in an other country. Where are her neighbors, where are her parents, where are the good people in her country that should be finding her something to eat? It is not on me. The growing population is stressing the Earth. Each human should produce children at the rate they can manage and take responsibility for, given limited resources. There is not a moral commandment to provide for others before you provide for your own. I retain the right to keep my way of life, regardless of the fact that others are not as well off. If my country is structured to be a better place to live than another then if you are the other, copy me. If your country is a better place to live then here, then maintain the way of life you have built. There is no moral commandment that says because of Imperialism, the West should eat Kelp so former colonies can eat corn. It actually has turned out that because of imperialism we have a global community. Regards, TAR As an aside, to illustrate that we are fighting against our selves and not looking to inhabit the middle ground, I was researching who owns the media, to figure out how and why we are so polarized and why people that watch Fox view people that watch CNBC as the enemy and vice-a-versa. My wife used to work for Time Inc. and Meredith publishing that has the market of magazines for women cornered, bought them for 1.3 billion. I looked to find out who owns Meredith and the biggest owners are financial investment houses, primarily related to Black Rock. Going further I keep getting back to a single owner, a private group called Wellington, with a Trillion dollars of assets. I am pretty sure that what you and I think has a lot to do with what the Wellington group thinks we should think.

Ten Oz, Taxes I want to see simplified progressive taxes where low income people pay little and large income people pay a lot and middle income pay a reasonable amount, with sta ndard deductions to everybody to account for charity and local taxes and such. Most important is to not penalize small businesses for making money, or to take larger amounts from capital gains income. Now in my time of life my money is working for me. It is still my money. If I benefit from interest or dividends or appreciated value, it should be my money to spend to live. My money is capital for mortgages, car loans, student loans and business loans. I should be paid a little to loan it out. Those gains are honest gains, Healthcare is a mess. I don't think people should be forced by law to buy insurance. Neither do I think the government should be responsible for everyone's health care. People should be in charge of their own lives, make decisions to have babies or smoke or skydive or have unsafe sex or get a procedure or not. Neither do I think it is the responsibility of an employer to provide healthcare. Initially strong corporations offered health care plans as a benefit to attract and retain strong employees. It was never the legal responsibility of an employer to take care of their employees, and there is no reason, by the laws of nature or man where such should be the case. If you get paid you can buy food, clothing, shelter, healthcare, education, diversion or whatever, according to your needs and desires, and it should not be legislated as to how your money should be spent. NAFTA I think Trump is correct to think of America first and not structure the trade agreements to benefit other nations. We should be sensitive to our policies, regulations and taxes, to cause jobs to go out of country. Many countries sell their goods in our country and do not allow our good to compete in their countries. Some of the reluctance to sell our beef in Europe is due to the hormones we inject, and perhaps that is proper to not let such in, as the effects are not clear, and our wheat is perhaps causing obesity and addiction issues here, but most of our products are well engineered and tested and should be allowed in other markets without being made uncompetitive by government subsidies in the other country. That is , fair trade should be fair to the U.S. business and consumer and worker. swansont, http://heavy.com/news/2016/10/jessica-leeds-donald-trump-groped-on-plane-sexually-assaulted-inappropriately-touched-new-york-times-video-1980s-rachel-crooks/ Tells the same story I told, that she was invited up to first class to sit with Trump and she accepted. I saw an interview with her where she described the situation exactly as depicted in this article, with the additional information that the petting went on for 10 or 15 minutes, and she only left when his hand went up her skirt. 10 or 15 minutes is a long time to sit there with petting going on, to consider the touching unwanted many years later. Regards, TAR many times during the election cycle the actions of Hilary while senator and secretary of State were questioned by Republicans, and counter arguments were launched against Trump concerning his actions as a private citizen Two different areas of life, with different expected behavior, not directly held up against each other. If Trump as a millionaire treated women as objects, this does not relate directly to his ability to lead a nation, negotiate with world leaders, or challenge the Washington elite. There are a lot of industries that build up around government largess. Some of that needs to be rationalized. And in an effort to find out what you people consider the middle ground, I would ask what do you think Hilary would have done about the economy, Syria, ISIS, Iran, the Saudis, Iraq, Iran, North Korea, China, the Ukraine, the border, and the Opioid crisis?

I saw a soda machine at the food counter at a movie house in Blacksburg, where no interaction with a person was required to by your drink. The woman on the plane with Trump did not say no. She sat there for 15 or 20 minutes, not denying his advances. Then got up and went back to her seat. I saw the interview with her where she states this. I think the incident happened, but I don't think it was without her consent. Middle ground requires that one, in addition to protecting a woman from an abusive spouse, protects a non-abusive spouse from being destroyed by a questionable claim. Sodemy is illegal some places, and was illegal some places where it is no longer. Since when does the progression of the human race require sticking a penis in someone's ass hole?

SwansonT, half? The point is, a president should not be against her citizens at all. I heard a democrat official, talking about people that were in town to demonstrate for keeping the statues, like they were so evil as to not be allowed to exist. No matter what you or I think about David Duke or a group of students demonstrating for the right to display the confederate battle flag, they are citizens of this country and as long as they do not break any laws or hurt anyone, or interfere with anybody's civil liberties, they are allowed to exist in this country. A president can not be against his or her population. She cannot ask them to leave, because they do not measure up to her moral standards. Regards, TAR

and 44 million of us, in the US own guns and those that own guns want to own them, and don't agree with you that not having them would be better if you are after middle ground, you have to entertain the desires of these 44 million fellow Americans. I read a piece, I know not where, that argued a husband could rape his wife, based on the wife saying it was rape, after the fact. and this is not fiction look at all the people coming out of the woodwork, claiming sexual assault and sexual abuse after 40 years

dimreepr, That is my point. Dems think that touching your wife butt, without her permission is sexual abuse. So the wife is mad I didn't take out the garbage, and she calls the police when I slip my hand down her pants. There really is sexual abuse. Redefining what qualifies, does nobody any good. Regards, TAR

Thread, Thank you for your condolences. My dad gathered us a few weeks ago and told us he wanted that we should not be sad. That is not going real well for me but I am trying. I understand that the world is different now, because we don't have him in it any longer. Big loss for everybody. Now you guys only have me to fill his shoes. Not easy shoes to fill, he was a special guy. The choice on election day was between Trump and Hilary, not a choice between evil and good. Hilary had relegated me and 46 million other people into a basket of deplorables. I am not, and never have been deplorable. I am a solid citizen and will continue to be such. Trump will never be the dictator you guys fear. Our country is structured to not allow that. There are arguments against any action a person or a country can make. The middle ground is achieved by accepting the arguments of all sides, and governing, by making the hard choices in terms of how to proceed. Take any argument, and look at both sides, all sides, and see who wins and loses and what people and ideas are served in various combinations of actions. There is NEVER a right and wrong way to go. This is what is so stupid about all dems voting one way and all repubs voting the other. There is no possible way that it could just so happen that an action is 100% wonderful to people wearing red shoes and 100% evil to people wearing blue shoes. Raising the min wage would cause fast food places to automate. Disallowing the burning of coal would leave coal miners out of work, and shift heavy manufacturing, were high heat smelting and such are required, to other countries. And the silly thing is, we then would ship our coal to the other countries and the Earth would suffer the burning any way. Making pot smoking legal in NJ would frustrate the education campaign we are waging in NJ to have young minds find natural highs, and would confuse young people as to what the law is considering that pot is a controlled substance on the Federal level. That is, using pot would be legal in NJ and you could get fired from your corporate job. It is never a black and white, yes and no, extreme position wins situation. It is our duty as intelligent folk. The top 10 percent of people in terms of intelligence and capability, to find the middle ground, and to on purpose pull ourselves away from the easy feel good argument. If governing were not hard, anybody could do it. I had a strong feeling that Hilary, who was proud to be enemy of the Republicans, the drug companies and the Iranians, would have a hard time being my president. So, together with the possibility that her carelessness gave up state secrets to foreign adversaries, and a general feeling that she did not have the weight to stand up against Putin, and Assad and Iran and North Korea and a hundred other indications I had, that Trump was a better negotiator and a stronger, more capable leader, I pulled the lever for Trump. North Korea did not start being a problem when Trump was elected. They were already an enemy. We have been at war since I was young. All the missiles and bombs and artillery pieces, computer hacking capability, nerve agents and all the other ways the regime has devised to kill the horrible Americans was already in place. Other presidents made mistakes and kicked the can down the road. Trump has met the threat and sees the best way to adjust the attitude of North Korea is to have China do it. So he negotiates with China. Regards, TAR just thought of a for instance Let's say dems put in place a law that says sexual abusers can not own weapons, at the same time they make a law that says touching a woman's butt constitutes sexual abuse. That would mean no one would be allowed to own a weapon, as most everyone has touched a woman's butt. what makes the middle ground desirable to look for, is that I am fine with both gun ownership, and touching women's butts and there have been women that have not objected, in fact appreciated the touch, and many folks own guns and never robbed a bank or murdered anyone in fact, we should be concerned about taking control out of individual's hands and giving it to the government If everybody owned a gun, there is no way Trump or Hilary, could become dictator, for instance. And if we disallowed touching each other's butts, we might address the overpopulation issue, but we would not have near as much fun living.

Thread, This has devolved into a hate Trump thread. As much as one can denounce all business men for that one that screwed you, one should encourage the other 100,000,000 that were honest fiduciaries of your belongings. I often consider being right about things, the most important thing. But the world is too complicated to be right about everything, all the time. You have to put your faith in other people, to look after your interests. In the Army I once wrote an opinion piece to Stars and Stripes, that was published. It talked about people sometimes mistaking compassion for weakness, and it talked about giving up a few of your rights for others and how 180 million people would give up a few of their rights for you. 46 Million people voted for Trump. These are the same people that you pass in the street, that fight and die for you, that pick up your garbage, that pray for peace in church and give to charities, that run your company, that invest your 401, that give loans to startup business, that build the ports and universities that make your way of life possible. It is not that we have 46 million dupes and deniers of facts in our country. It is that we have 46 million TAR's. Regular people, that own businesses, make investments, loan money, build stuff, solve problems, fix stuff, and take care of the place and each other. My dad died yesterday morning. The guy in the bottom left of my profile picture. He was a brilliant man. A democrat. He served in the united states army fighting Hitler on a hill by the Saar river, where a machine gun bullet ripped through a nerve in his shoulder. He was sent to an orthopedic hospital instead of a neurological hospital and after months passed because of infection, he was finally operated on, back in the states, but the nerve had retracted and when attached it was too short and his left hand was crooked and not very functional. His dream of being a surgeon was dashed. He went to Muhlenberg got his masters at Lehigh and his doctor of psychology at Temple. He taught at Upsala college in East Orange and was a psychologist in private practice in New Jersey. He saved a lot of lives anyway. He didn't understand why I voted for Trump. Like you guys. Like all the Trump haters. My sister doesn't understand, my cousin in law doesn't understand, and political discussions this thanksgiving are potentially dangerous to family cohesion. And we, you and I, cannot resolve the differences of opinion here. Nor should we. The differences are real. But important to family cohesion is the fact that we love each other, and want to see each other succeed in life, be free, and respected and protected from the evils of the world. More important to love each other, than to be right. Sometimes being right is the wrong thing to do. So my suggestion for the table this Thanksgiving is to listen and to think about how the other is right, before you open your mouth. And decide, before you speak, if being right is more important than having a family and a country, that will protect you from the evils of the world. It is not important what you think Trump believes about global warming. It is important what we as Americans, do every day, about it. We are the same 320 million caring, capable people now, as we were, before the election. Happy Thanksgiving. Regards, TAR

SwansonT, He gets things done. He went to Seoul in person and gave a great speech about the wonderfulness of what South Korea has accomplished since the Korean war and how it was important to denuclearize the North, and he got a standing ovation from the parliament there. (This is at a time when 10,000 artillery pieces are aimed directly at where he stood.) He attended a Pacific area summit and one shot had scores of leaders walking together with the president of the United States front and center. He just had a call with Putin about peace in Syria and Crimea and working together to reel in North Korea. And you are still waiting for him to be impeached over something or another that has not been proven to have ever even occurred. Sad. Regards, TAR On the Access Hollywood tape, I used to joke with my family that I didn't wear shorts because my legs were so attractive that when women saw them they would get weak knees, faint, have car accidents and such, so it was better if I wore long pants. These things never happened. I also remember fibbing to associates, hinting that I was not a virgin, when I still was. In fact, I think when I stopped talking about sex with others was when I was actually having sex with others. This would indicate to me, that there is a strong possibility that Trump never grabbed anybody's pussy that didn't let him grab it.

Strange, I remember not liking how Hilary was handling the Arab spring, and the various interference in other countries our state department orchestrated through the internet. It seemed to me that the Kings that controlled their countries were more important as stabilizing factors than an amorphous foreign internet fostered global initiative to bring freedom and human rights to these areas...but she was my secretary of state, and women's rights and standing against oppression and human trafficking and such were important goals to me, so I considered that is what my secretary of state was doing, so that is what I was doing in the world. I criticized but did not disavow her actions. It was still the U.S. imposing our will on the world. And the president was making certain moves in Iraq and Syria and Crimea, and letting American's get their heads chopped off, in ways that made me feel he was doing the wrong thing, but I still backed everything he did, as he was my president, he killed Bin Laden, and brought us out of a deep recession. He was my president. I just had to wait 4 years to have someone in the seat that was more aligned with my thinking. Then I had to wait another 4 years, as he got reelected, but I always thought of him as my prestident. Proud of his accomplishments, and critical of his failures. There is absolutely no way a dictatorship could form in this country. I know places to go and people to band together with, that would fight such a thing. We have the same 320 million people here now, as we did before the election. You need not fear any one man could destroy this country. He did not deny global warming he downplayed humans causing it. So he is not denying facts, he is questioning the import of the problem. As in not ready to be told by the world how to live our lives. You think we are past the turning point. I don't think so. It is more important now to use all our energy sources in the cleanest most sustainable way we can manage, and not be held hostage by a global consortium to a certain standard of living. In other words we can and should police ourselves, but refuse to be policed by the world. Other countries are obligated to do the same. We don't force them to live the way we want them to live. Everyone makes the choice on their own. Lifestyles don't have to change. We can simply come up with a strategy to lower the temp of the Earth 1.8 degrees in the next 200 years. Perhaps some heat exchange system that cooled the Earth with the temperature of the upper atmosphere, or some white inert Styrofoam balls we could release on vast expanses of ocean to reflect sunlight back to space, and then collect them to let the sea and the life below absorb the sunlight again. But we have a lot of people to make comfortable. Maybe we should structure our tax law to not encourage large families. You can have them if you want, but maybe you should not have more than you can afford, on your own. Cruel, perhaps, but if we are talking survival of the planet, I think it more important to get runaway population growth under control than to say I can not drive to visit my daughter in Va. (should I use up my carbon dioxide credits or whatever solution you have in mind.) Regards, TAR Ten Oz, Substantial enough. More substantial than any victory other than Obama's victories this century. You can not call the use of the word substantial a lie. I saw the weak crowds, the same as everybody else did. The anti Trump forces hammer the fact. There were elected officials that even boycotted the inauaceguration. I was their duty to a peaceful transition to attend. Instead they boycotted the inauguration and started a not my president movement. For what? Love of truth? Attempting to inhabit the middle ground? Attempting to heal the divides of a divisive campaign? No. To double down on never Trump rhetoric AFTER he was elected president of the U.S.. Regards, TAR

Gees, Another thing to think about in terms of non-private stuff, that is not written or spoken language, but that does communicate some mental state between humans, is mirror neurons. These are the little devils thought to be responsible for us physically flinching when the comedian (or distracted layperson) on the tv walks into the pole. Or when we grimace when the needle goes into someone's arm, or the scalpel slicing into someone's skin. We feel it, we wince we duck we flinch and we do it cause of mirror neurons. These feelings are not limited to physical stimuli, as we also laugh when others laugh, smile when others smile, cry when others cry and jump up and down when others jump up and down. So I am not so sure a thought of recognition or some "aha" moment can not sweep through a crowd. Consider a show where the comedian tells a joke, and everyone gets it at different times but a groan comes from the crowd, together. Or a baseball game where the ball comes off the bat and everybody "knows" by the angle and speed, where it is likely to wind up, and what that means to the score. Or consider a crowds reaction to a line, or a musical score? Thought or emotion? Regards, TAR

https://www.politico.com/blogs/on-media/2017/01/trump-inauguration-streaming-audience-234056 Yes, everybody I was for Kasich and after the Comey Wiener stuff I decided to vote Trump instead of Hilary. What changed? I suppose I found Trump actually refreshingly honest compared to the politicians that usually run the place. He is definitely not a lawyer, and says things he feels straight out. He is narcissistic and never apologizes, but he does not drink. does not smoke, cares about America and our standing in the world, and does what he says. He destroyed 12 very capable candidates in the GOP primary, and orchestrated a substantial electoral victory. (Even though Hilary got 3 million more votes.) But he is my president. Along with me, 46 million other Americans voted for him. And more importantly more electoral college votes went to him than to anybody else. That means he got the popular vote in more states than he lost the popular vote. He is the selection of the voters in my country. As soon as he took the oath of office he was our president, due the respect of the office. He speaks for me, he speaks for you, (if you are a citizen of this country) and much of the hatred toward him was established by his opponents during the race. But this thread is about truth, and the middle ground. It is true that the side by side pictures were taken at different times, that security measures and demonstrations and such slowed the flow of people to the mall. It is true that Obama's first inauguration drew huge numbers more that Trump. It is true that Reagans tv numbers were 41 million and Trumps 20, and it is true that 16 million streamed the inauguration on CNN. Spicer is not lying to say the audience was the largest ever. Middle ground wise, it is possible to understand that Trump's parade route was sparse and the crowd disappointing, and still understand that the things he said about the crowd and his world wide audience were true. He lies through his teeth, the way a salesman lies, that will hype the product. This is not entirely a bad thing for a president, in terms of talking up the economy, talking down the North Korean leader and saying a carrier group is on the way, even though it was in Australia. I tend to frame it now as hyperbole, not lies. There is much truthful substance behind Trump's actions and words since the election. Yet he gets little love from you guys and gals. He does not really care though, in terms of executing the responsibilities of the office. He does the right thing, and calls you fake news for spinning it backward. I think he has handled Russia and Syria and ISIS and North Korea, and our economy masterfully. Yet you guys consider him a liar for the crowd thing, and a sex offender for the access Holywood tape, and under Putin's thumb because you think Putin has blackmail video of him in a hotel room in Moscow, and a colluder because his campaign entertained some offers of dirt on Hillary from the Russians. And a global warming denier, because he is not as panic stricken as you guys are about it. Yes it is getting warmer. Yes the industrial age is the culprit. No we should not surrender our life style because of it. Consider the slight to our nation, when Obama went to China and they did not provide a state welcome and did not wheel the big red carpet stairs up to airforce one. Then consider the welcome Trump has received from the Saudis and the Chinese. Which makes you feel the president was doing it right? Regards, TAR

Stange, Well slow down a bit. I told you about the audience being a world wide audience. Trump is a ratings guy. Many people around the country and the world watched. Possibly the largest audience ever. In person attendance Obama won hands down. The largest audience claim remains highly possible. (There were no gun homicide victims in Chicago that day.) This is exactly the kind of spin and misinformation that underlies the claim that Trump is a liar. The Times documents all those "lies" and each one can be explained as an exaggeration or the words can be taken wrong and spun as a lie, when he actually said a true thing. For instance here, he did not say two people were killed that day, he said two people were shot. Regards, TAR Take illegal voting in California for instance. Lets say it was not millions. Lets say it was 10 or 100 or a 1000 or 10000 or a million 999 thousand, it would still not be a lie to suggest there were illegal votes cast, where people lied on forms concerning their citizenship and voted absentee. Or somebody took elderly ballots and filled them out and sent them in, or any number of other ways an illegal vote could have been cast. The system is rigged to not check on these things, under the guise that checking would be voter suppression. You guys are pretty rough, giving me down votes in a tread about truth mattering, for telling the truth. Its restbit time again. I will let you guys flail around in your own self righteous lies, on your own. I am out. For a longer while.

Ten Oz swansonT was quick to call my pay off figures false propaganda, and he posted payoff figures of 1 to 4 years to refute Trumps claim that it would take more years to payoff the cells than they would last and calls Trump the denier of fact the figures swansonT gave told nothing of the cost of manufacturing, transporting, installing and maintaining the cells so they did not address the economic payoff at all You guys are really reaching, to call Trump a liar. He is actually just telling the truth. Regards, TAR Also Thread, If you don't like my choice of Trump for president, you can do nothing about it, If you are trying to interfere with the governance of my country then you are as suspect as Putin. So if we are to talk socialist vs capitalist or environmentalist against oil magnate, we can go ahead and talk about those things, but the taxes I pay my governments local, state and country and what I expect in return is my business. If we are a good country that you wish to emulate than do it. If you wish to fix us, fix yourself first, then give suggestions. I am not required to pledge allegiance to Canada or the U.K. you guys are my allies against ISIS and Russia and such and we share a continent and an ocean so we are neighbors, but your politics are your business my politics are mine. The global government does not exist yet. Regards, TAR