zapatos Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 (edited) And still, do we have any real evidence that a gun in the house make your safter. So far all the statistics suggest not. ----------------------- Maybe there is a point of definition here. Most people who enter a home do so to steal things. The term 'home invasion' may mean breaking into someones house to commit crimes other than burglary. I may has misinterpreted the use of the meaning. The evidence does not say that Moontanman will not be safer. It says that the average person will not be safer. Having a gun in the house makes many people safer than they would be without one. I agree that most home invasions probably involve property and not the intent to do harm to the person. From my perspective though, I don't intend to wait to see what the intruder has in mind. I already know he is a bad guy, and I'm not minimizing the risk to the well being of the intruder over that of my family. I too will feel bad if I have to shoot someone, but it was he who decided to open that door, not me. EDIT: And the gun has nothing to do with it. If I have to whack him with a baseball bat I'll do that. I'm not going to first ask what his intentions are. Edited July 8, 2016 by zapatos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Really, or are these just the events you are aware of? And still, do we have any real evidence that a gun in the house make your safter. So far all the statistics suggest not. ----------------------- Maybe there is a point of definition here. Most people who enter a home do so to steal things. The term 'home invasion' may mean breaking into someones house to commit crimes other than burglary. I may has misinterpreted the use of the meaning. I grew up with guns, guns are not toys, they are more like power tools, you keep them out of the hands of those who do not know or are too immature to use them properly. Are the statistics you are looking at divided by hand guns and long guns? Hand guns, even in the hands of trained law enforcement officers, are simply an accident waiting to happen. Far to easy to look at hand guns as toys, hell we give them to our children to play with! Yet another take on this is a gun in the hands of someone who really doesn't know anything but the basics of load point and shoot. As I said I grew up with guns, had my first shotgun when I was 12, I bought it myself at the feed store. It was along ass walk to that feed store, I lived in the boonies. I even took my gun to school few times because some of my friends were going quail hunting after school. I walked in put it in my locker and left it there until school was out and got back on the bus to ride to a friends house. That was a different time, no one really thought about school shootings or anything like that... But I grew up being taught the right and wrongs of guns and doing something wrong with a gun brought swift punishment. I doubt that many people today who own guns had anything but the most meager training on how to use guns, they certainly act awfully cavalier about them... To me it is a lot like owning or handling a poisonous snake, as long as you do it correctly no worries, but if you don't know how the learning curve can be quite steep, better to learn how before picking up the real mccoy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 The evidence does not say that Moontanman will not be safer. It says that the average person will not be safer. I agree, that is how statistics work. But how do we know if he is or is not safer? Unless he lives in a very untypical situation - and I don't know his area and life style - what else can we go on? Having a gun in the house makes many people safer than they would be without one. Feel safter or actually safter? Again, all we can really do is look at statistics and try to ground the discussion in some realism. What are the real risks? Does having a gun reduce these risks? Or does it increase them? So far all the statistics are telling me that guns in the house are not a good idea - for the average person. Are the statistics you are looking at divided by hand guns and long guns? I think guns overall and across the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 It does not have to be just a firearm control or just a mentality issue. Countries with high prevalence of guns still have lower firearm accidents and homicide rates than the US. In the UK or in many other parts of Europe a burglary is not associated with violence, hence people are more willing to just hide or leave the house rather than take a confrontational stance. I.e. people are more willing to leave violent actions to the authorities who, in many cases. have more training than many of their US counterparts. In very isolated areas self defense may be more tricky, yet crime rates are also typically lower than in urban centres. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 To me it is a lot like owning or handling a poisonous snake, as long as you do it correctly no worries, but if you don't know how the learning curve can be quite steep, better to learn how before picking up the real mccoy... I do see where you are comming from... but there has to be some discussion about why people have guns. In general overall it seems that guns in the house full stop is not a good idea. But beyond that I can see a use for hunting and sport - under tight rules and restrictions. But this is not what you said about your shot gun - you even said that it is not really any good for hunting. So why have it? Protection? Maybe, but then this goes back to my question of real risk and not just fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Really, or are these just the events you are aware of? And still, do we have any real evidence that a gun in the house make your safter. So far all the statistics suggest not. ----------------------- Maybe there is a point of definition here. Most people who enter a home do so to steal things. The term 'home invasion' may mean breaking into someones house to commit crimes other than burglary. I may has misinterpreted the use of the meaning. Burglary and a home invasion are different animals, a burglar sneaks into a place and relies on stealth and cunning to get in and out fast with out being caught. A home invasion is nothing less than beating down the door and coming in to terrorise the home owner while you rob them. I think the home invader gets off on the power play of tying up his victims and often abusing them in front of each other. But, I have to admit if I caught someone in my house they would be confronted by me wielding a shot gun, I would give them the option of leaving or dying unless they pointed a weapon at me, then all bets are off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 It does not have to be just a firearm control or just a mentality issue. I agree with you here. It is not a one or the other thing. Really it is a deep cultural issue about how one resolves problems, coupled with the avaliability of guns - both legal and otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 I agree, that is how statistics work. But how do we know if he is or is not safer? Unless he lives in a very untypical situation - and I don't know his area and life style - what else can we go on?Well, you and I don't know, so we leave it up to Moontanman to evaluate the risks and rewards himself. Just like we do with everything else in his life. Feel safter or actually safter?Actually safer. Again, all we can really do is look at statistics and try to ground the discussion in some realism.Then we need to look at more granular data. Is the risk of having a gun in the house the same for a group of 20 year old suburban males as it is for a policeman living alone in a bad neighborhood? What are the real risks? Does having a gun reduce these risks? Or does it increase them?Depends on the circumstances. So far all the statistics are telling me that guns in the house are not a good idea - for the average person.Agreed. But most people are not average. Most would have higher or lower risk depending on the circumstances. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 I do see where you are comming from... but there has to be some discussion about why people have guns. In general overall it seems that guns in the house full stop is not a good idea. But beyond that I can see a use for hunting and sport - under tight rules and restrictions. But this is not what you said about your shot gun - you even said that it is not really any good for hunting. So why have it? Protection? Maybe, but then this goes back to my question of real risk and not just fear. I openly admit my shot gun is designed for home defense, in fact I had sold all my guns until about 5 years ago when I helped the police take down a drug ring in my neighborhood, the sheriff went out of his way to advise me to buy a gun for home protection since the bad guys knew who it was that turned them in. It's long drawn out story I won't share here due to space but it involved the feds (sort of) the sheriff, local meth runners and resulted in bullet holes in my house. But one summer I mowed my lawn while carrying a 12 gauge shot gun loaded for bear. It kinda gets your knickers in a knot when car loads of gang bangers drive by real slow pointing guns at you... I have since moved from that area... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Moontanman, I accept I misspoke. But, I have to admit if I caught someone in my house they would be confronted by me wielding a shot gun, I would give them the option of leaving or dying unless they pointed a weapon at me, then all bets are off... And this is a real risk? Also I would suggest that confronting anyone with a gun could result in the same - the whole game of stealing some of your things is now a deadly battle. Not really making you or anyone else any safter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 I would like to say up front that killing someone over property is something I would not do.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Moontanman, I accept I misspoke. But, I have to admit if I caught someone in my house they would be confronted by me wielding a shot gun, I would give them the option of leaving or dying unless they pointed a weapon at me, then all bets are off... And this is a real risk? Also I would suggest that confronting anyone with a gun could result in the same - the whole game of stealing some of your things is now a deadly battle. Not really making you or anyone else any safter. I openly admit my shot gun is designed for home defense Even with your story... it is very sad that you think that you need such an item. I really do feel sorry for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Moontanman, I accept I misspoke. And this is a real risk? Also I would suggest that confronting anyone with a gun could result in the same - the whole game of stealing some of your things is now a deadly battle. Not really making you or anyone else any safter. It wouldn't be a deadly battle, it would be me telling the perpetrator to leave and informing him the law has been called, if he leaves then we are cool, if he doesn't one good shot gun blast to his torso will solve the issue. Most if not all burglars understand the game they are playing but as I have said in the past my hounds are a first line alarm, someone just walking through the yard brings them to attention from a dead sleep. Even someone they know is greeted by howls and barking that sounds like the hounds of the baskervilles are loose... Moontanman, I accept I misspoke. And this is a real risk? Also I would suggest that confronting anyone with a gun could result in the same - the whole game of stealing some of your things is now a deadly battle. Not really making you or anyone else any safter. Even with your story... it is very sad that you think that you need such an item. I really do feel sorry for you. To be honest I wish I didn't need it but drug gangs are difficult to negotiate with. My wife insists that I keep the gun even though we live in a much better neighborhood now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 And just for fun again... "After adjustment, individuals in possession of a gun were 4.46 (P < .05) times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not in possession. Among gun assaults where the victim had at least some chance to resist, this adjusted odds ratio increased to 5.45 (P < .05)". [1] Reference [1] Charles C. Branas, Therese S. Richmond, Dennis P. Culhane, Thomas R. Ten Have, and Douglas J. Wiebe. Investigating the Link Between Gun Possession and Gun Assault. American Journal of Public Health: November 2009, Vol. 99, No. 11, pp. 2034-2040. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 And just for fun again... "After adjustment, individuals in possession of a gun were 4.46 (P < .05) times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not in possession. Among gun assaults where the victim had at least some chance to resist, this adjusted odds ratio increased to 5.45 (P < .05)". [1] Reference [1] Charles C. Branas, Therese S. Richmond, Dennis P. Culhane, Thomas R. Ten Have, and Douglas J. Wiebe. Investigating the Link Between Gun Possession and Gun Assault. American Journal of Public Health: November 2009, Vol. 99, No. 11, pp. 2034-2040. I think we are arguing past each other, I see no reason to carry a weapon outside my house, I don't expect to encounter a terrorist at the local Piggly Wiggly and if i did I doubt very much that me having a gun would make any difference... If confronted by a robber outside my home I would give him my wallet and report my loss to the police... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waitforufo Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Maybe this had something to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 I see no reason to carry a weapon outside my house, Okay, but still the statistics suggest that this is not a good idea itself. Maybe from what you have said you can justify having a gun in the house - it is legal for you and the moral judgment is yours. Moreover, it is up to you to assess the risks here. ....and if i did I doubt very much that me having a gun would make any difference Indeed, the 'good guys' with guns idea is not supported with evidence. Sure, there has been a few cases of this, but not many and not enough to justify everyone carrying guns. ... If confronted by a robber outside my home I would give him my wallet and report my loss to the police... Only you can decide that at the time. You have to make a judgement call on the intent of the robber. However, the advice seems to be to give them what they ask for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danijel Gorupec Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 I think we are arguing past each other, I see no reason to carry a weapon outside my house, I don't expect to encounter a terrorist at the local Piggly Wiggly and if i did I doubt very much that me having a gun would make any difference... If confronted by a robber outside my home I would give him my wallet and report my loss to the police... If a burglar believes that you have a gun in your home, he will bring his own piece too. A burglar also dislike the cost of gun ownership, but what can he do - he must protect himself too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 If a burglar believes that you have a gun in your home, he will bring his own piece too. A burglar also dislike the cost of gun ownership, but what can he do - he must protect himself too. This is a real worry - you just up the game from the start. This may be reflected in the correlation between the level of gun regulations in a state and the deaths - but I am not sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 If a burglar believes that you have a gun in your home, he will bring his own piece too. A burglar also dislike the cost of gun ownership, but what can he do - he must protect himself too. Then death is a occupational hazard he must be ready to deal with, is anyone really willing to rely on the good will of a criminal to protect them? Okay, but still the statistics suggest that this is not a good idea itself. Maybe from what you have said you can justify having a gun in the house - it is legal for you and the moral judgment is yours. Moreover, it is up to you to assess the risks here. Indeed, the 'good guys' with guns idea is not supported with evidence. Sure, there has been a few cases of this, but not many and not enough to justify everyone carrying guns. Only you can decide that at the time. You have to make a judgement call on the intent of the robber. However, the advice seems to be to give them what they ask for. Well since I would not be armed other than my pocket knife I would have little choice but to give the mugger what they want.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waitforufo Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 If a burglar believes that you have a gun in your home, he will bring his own piece too. A burglar also dislike the cost of gun ownership, but what can he do - he must protect himself too. If a burglar believes that you have a gun in your home, he will go to a different home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 If a burglar believes that you have a gun in your home, he will go to a different home. Do we have evidence for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 If a burglar believes that you have a gun in your home, he will go to a different home.Agreed this is the most likely scenario. The last thing a burglar wants to encounter in a home is a homeowner, whether they are armed or not. They don't want to be harmed every bit as much as the homeowner doesn't want to be harmed. Do we have evidence for that?I doubt it, but play it out in your own mind. Given two different options being otherwise equal, are you more likely to take the option with more risk to your life or less risk? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 This is interesting: http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/gun-control-myths-realities This is an odd mish mash of statistics: http://www.factcheck.org/2015/10/gun-laws-deaths-and-crimes/ I honestly think that my dogs have prevented me from being a victim at least twice over the years. One neighborhood I lived in many years ago had a rash of breakins. The houses on both sides of my and across the street from me had break ins as well as several other homes in the area.. All I got was barking dogs complaints... On the other hand my pocket knife must be rather awesome, I was digging for change one day a few years ago and put everything in my pockets on the counter to get to the change and the girl at the register almost fainted dead away when she saw my buck knife.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 I doubt it, but play it out in your own mind. The claims that I have found are that the evidence is actually that there is no differnce here. In fact, you just take on all the risk associated with guns in the house for no real benefit. http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-0804-hemenway-defensive-gun-home-20150730-story.html Given two different options being otherwise equal, are you more likely to take the option with more risk to your life or less risk? It seems that by not using a gun you are actually at less risk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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