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The greatest COINCIDENCE of all time, seems to be happening RIGHT NOW in front of us .


Mike Smith Cosmos

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It has been suggested by many that we as humans are at the pinnacle of our growth to stature.

Could it be that it is not coincidence that we have reached this condition RIGHT NOW . Everything appears to be coming together at this moment in time.

 

For most things in the universe there is a beginning ,a first. As scientists we nearly all accept there was a FIRST around 13.7 billion years ago ( singularity, inflation, Big Bang ) a first point in time for the start of the material universe.

 

Currently many space orientated projects are involved with looking for another life supporting world . There has to be a first . What if our world is the FIRST . ( for Sentient , Conscious, life ) . No others , just us at the moment. The First .

 

The COINCIDENCES , that seem to surround what has gone on over the last 4.5 billion years or more around our world , seem to 'smack' of the greatest coincidences of all time .

 

We have ended up with a sentient , ' Being', OURSELVES , as the HUMANKIND , with coincidentally a human brain that is better than 10,000 or more of our best computers , alone, able to comprehend the universe. We can look as never before across great reaches of space , we can understand some of the most complex processes of the Universe.

 

It is almost unforgivable, that we do not recognise, that somewhere back in the aeons of time, there dose not exist , our originators .

 

If , they were there, and they knew what they were aiming for with the universe, it's almost certain they would have left some mechanism for viewing the span of the universe and it's growth of the FIRST MATERIAL , SENTIENT , CONSCIOUS , LIFE FORM . Just so ,Coincidentally , that this , then future ( material humankind ) , has the brain capacity to comprehend the universe it finds itself in .

 

Surely this is the. ........ Greatest Coincidence of all time ........

 

Mike

 

Ps

I think Arthur C Clark must have had this insight when he wrote " 2001 a space odyssey " and 2010 etc. with his Monoliths.

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It has been suggested by many that we as humans are at the pinnacle of our growth to stature.

 

Then we are doomed to die. The human race appears to almost constantly be killing itself in one place or another so much so that there is rarely a year where there isn't war.

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Then we are doomed to die. The human race appears to almost constantly be killing itself in one place or another so much so that there is rarely a year where there isn't war.

.

.

Well of course , you are perfectly right in what you say. If we do not do something about our ' killing ' record , We are likely to go into some form of self suicide.

 

All this while we are poised on one of the most exciting, possible , adventures of all time .

 

We have the technology , the brain capacity, the engineers , designers, the manufacturing capability , access to resources totally bottomless ( the universe itself ) and to start on the most exciting journeys our ancestors could not even imagine .

 

To reach for the skies!

 

Yet , our biggest preoccupation seems to be , as you say ,to want to kill each other . And at the same time NOT keeping a sensible grip on managing resources on earth sensibly . That is plain lunacy.

 

Mike

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I don't understand the coincidence thing. What are you talking about?

Well. In whichever direction one looks , there appear to be unusually coincidental phenomenon , which it is easy to take for granted, yet when you think about it , is strange or odd. In some ways the Anthropic principle . * see below link

 

 

The one that has been mooted in recent astronomical discussions , has been those of :-

 

Our earth is just at the right distance from the sun for water to exist at the junction of liquid, solid ,gas. Similarly for life to exist in this human form . The moon is exactly the same size in the sky as the sun ( 400 this and 400 that ) . We just happen to have reached our population size whereby ,the earth is getting near full, our resources are running low, we have developed space flight, with a little jiggery-pocky , we could just about solve these resources problem , by reaching for the moon, mars, asteroids etc . It is now , not 300 years ago when it is possible .

 

And one could go on to list the areas of coincidence :- Our knowledge of ......, our ability to ......., our .......etc etc

 

Anthropic coincidences

 

* link anthropic principle :- http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

 

Mike

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The moon is exactly the same size in the sky as the sun

 

What does this have to do with anything? It only really allows us to see full solar eclipses.

 

 

 

we could just about solve these resources problem , by reaching for the moon, mars, asteroids etc .

 

We have reached the Moon (you know, "That's one small step..." and so on), Mars and asteroids (although unmanned only), but at current technology level space mining is expensive and can't compete with mining on the Earth itself. It costs some $25-40 to produce a tonne of iron ore, but it costs $10000 for a kilogram on low-Earth orbit and some $16000-27000 to get to GSO. And after you get your equipment in space, you still need to reach asteroid you're planning to mine, dig some stuff and send it back to Earth. Very expensive. Also very-very prone to failure.

 

Also governments are not willing to spend so much because it gets in the way of developing weapons to kill people :(

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I believe we are very (very) far from understanding our Universe. We are like Columbus beginning to investigate our close neighbourhood, like him with rudimentary ships, not knowing the depth of the ocean, not knowing for the sea currents, not knowing anything about electricity or atomic reactions. We are not even able to administrate our own planet properly and we are ready for the conquest of the Universe. Or to emigrate because we made a mess out of it. This is pathetic.I see no coincidences at all. If i am wrong and there are such coincidences, even then the conclusion should not be a "hurray", but "what a sickness". Do you really want this to infest the whole universe?

IMHO it should be better to look at how much barbaric we are, fix it, and try to understand more.

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I believe we are very (very) far from understanding our Universe. We are like Columbus beginning to investigate our close neighbourhood, like him with rudimentary ships, not knowing the depth of the ocean, not knowing for the sea currents, not knowing anything about electricity or atomic reactions. We are not even able to administrate our own planet properly and we are ready for the conquest of the Universe. Or to emigrate because we made a mess out of it. This is pathetic.I see no coincidences at all. If i am wrong and there are such coincidences, even then the conclusion should not be a "hurray", but "what a sickness". Do you really want this to infest the whole universe?

IMHO it should be better to look at how much barbaric we are, fix it, and try to understand more.

.

 

I know you are down there in Athens Michael , where the sun shines and I could spend all my days down in the Pellepanise swimming in tropical clear water looking at multi coloured fish , but the other day we had an Horizon program that showed the utter coincidence , of some student Melinski , ( back in the '60's ) who did some sums on the three bodied problem . Worked out you could sling shot across the solar system . NASA took it up in the 70's when Karl Sagan was around , with his presentation they got the funds and sent a pioneer or two space cross on a unique ( next one 170 years time ) sling shot around m Mars, Jupiter, Saturn , Neptune and out of the entire envelope of the solar system . This using the rotational pull of planets around the sun . Only the fuel needed to set them going from earth orbit in the direction of Mars. It only exited the solar system this year . ( next chance 170 years )

 

That has got to be an amazing coincidence.

 

The list is endless !

 

We as a human species , are surely facing our greatest challenge ,in the whole of human history !

 

Make good and survive ... Or go into a spiral of decline .

 

It surely no coincidence , we have all the facilities available , as well as the free will to choose which way we go .

 

Mike

What does this have to do with anything? It only really allows us to see full solar eclipses.

 

 

 

We have reached the Moon (you know, "That's one small step..." and so on), Mars and asteroids (although unmanned only), but at current technology level space mining is expensive and can't compete with mining on the Earth itself. It costs some $25-40 to produce a tonne of iron ore, but it costs $10000 for a kilogram on low-Earth orbit and some $16000-27000 to get to GSO. And after you get your equipment in space, you still need to reach asteroid you're planning to mine, dig some stuff and send it back to Earth. Very expensive. Also very-very prone to failure.

 

Also governments are not willing to spend so much because it gets in the way of developing weapons to kill people :(

Yes but surely does it not strike you as an amazing coincidence it is exactly the same size image , exactly , such that the other day I could see the diamond ring appear. And yet only possible by the sun being 400 times bigger and by coincidence being 400 times further away . You have got to be joking !

 

The getting to the asteroids and back , I would have thought could be by some other sling shots , there and back . Maybe even knocking a small asteroid back toward earth with nth tons of precious elements. agreed we would need to be very accurate to say land it in the middle of the Sahara desert or somewhere . Then surface mine it there . For the first time in human history we can at least think about it and do the sums . That has got to be coincidence.

 

I worked out once , despite all this trapping around in Africa , civilisation basically got going in the Iraq area . It was a nice easy progress down through an inland sea ( was it the Black Sea . ) then later down to the inland vast sea ' (Mediterranean Sea ) , then through the gates of ( straits of Gibraltar ) to the Hugh Atlantic Ocean , then finally the humungous Pacific Ocean

 

Now here we are on the shores of the space ocean . If that is not progression and coincidence , I don't know what is .

 

All at our time now , when the world is getting full and the supplies are running out . What a coincident ?

 

Mike

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All at our time now , when the world is getting full and the supplies are running out . What a coincident ?

 

Not a coincidence at all. At all times human population on the planet was limited by the available resources mostly. At 35000 BCE the population is estimated at 3 million, because they were hunter-gatherers and had limited resources. At 10000 BCE the population increased to some 15 million due to development of agriculture. There couldn't have been more due to limited resources and rudimentary technology. Then further in time at some 4 CE the population of Roman Empire alone was 40-60 million due to advances in agriculture, technology and medicine. Do you see the trend? As technological level increased so did the population.

 

So at any time in the world history one could say "the world is getting full and the supplies are running out" and then what, it would be a great coincidence at any time in human history? In that case it's not a coincidence, it's related to many other factors and these are not random.

 

Your whole original assumption is flawed, I'm sorry to say this.

Edited by pavelcherepan
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Not a coincidence at all. At all times human population on the planet was limited by the available resources mostly. At 35000 BCE the population is estimated at 3 million, because they were hunter-gatherers and had limited resources. At 10000 BCE the population increased to some 15 million due to development of agriculture. There couldn't have been more due to limited resources and rudimentary technology. Then further in time at some 4 CE the population of Roman Empire alone was 40-60 million due to advances in agriculture, technology and medicine. Do you see the trend? As technological level increased so did the population.

 

So at any time in the world history one could say "the world is getting full and the supplies are running out" and then what, it would be a great coincidence at any time in human history? In that case it's not a coincidence, it's related to many other factors and these are not random.

 

Your whole original assumption is flawed, I'm sorry to say this.

Yes but I am not into a " cause and effect " argument .

 

I am saying , what the heck is going on here ?

 

Here we are on the shores of the cosmic ocean ( as Karl Sagan ! would say ) people practically pushing us into the sea , as they jostle behind us ! I am saying this is an amazing coincidence . Perhaps it isn't . Perhaps it is all part of the plan ?

 

Mike

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Yes but I am not into a " cause and effect " argument .

 

I am saying , what the heck is going on here ?

 

Here we are on the shores of the cosmic ocean ( as Karl Sagan ! would say ) people practically pushing us into the sea , as they jostle behind us ! I am saying this is an amazing coincidence . Perhaps it isn't . Perhaps it is all part of the plan ?

 

Mike

 

I'm not into cause and effect either. I don't care what is the driving factor, whether it is that technological advancement results in increase of population or the other way around. What I'm saying is that it's no coincidence at all. As long as technology advanced we were meant to get to the current population levels and as long as technology advanced we were meant to get to the stage where we can send craft into space (unless everyone died in the nuclear holocaust).

 

Do you see a coincidence? Because I don't.

 

And no plan. Just as evolution has no plan same applies to the the advancement of humanity as a whole. It just happens. Entropy has to increase :)

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That has got to be an amazing coincidence.

 

No, not really.

 

Even for random occurrences, events of small probability will happen with enough trials, but after the event occurred, the probability of it happening is 1. It's only unlikely, or an "amazing coincidence", if you are trying to predict it beforehand.

 

What's not an "amazing coincidence" is that life as we know it arose on a planet in a zone required for the conditions to support life as we know it. That's a normal coincidence, using the other definition of the word, which just means "happens at the same time" (literally co-incident), rather than the "remarkable concurrence of unrelated events" definition. Being in the habitable zone and having life occur is not unrelated at all.

 

This would appear to be a corollary of the Alanis Morissette syndrome. Much like rain on your wedding day is not ironic.

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I'm not into cause and effect either. I don't care what is the driving factor, whether it is that technological advancement results in increase of population or the other way around. What I'm saying is that it's no coincidence at all. As long as technology advanced we were meant to get to the current population levels and as long as technology advanced we were meant to get to the stage where we can send craft into space (unless everyone died in the nuclear holocaust).

 

Do you see a coincidence? Because I don't.

 

And no plan. Just as evolution has no plan same applies to the the advancement of humanity as a whole. It just happens. Entropy has to increase :)

No, not really.

 

 

Even for random occurrences, events of small probability will happen with enough trials, but after the event occurred, the probability of it happening is 1. It's only unlikely, or an "amazing coincidence", if you are trying to predict it beforehand.

 

What's not an "amazing coincidence" is that life as we know it arose on a planet in a zone required for the conditions to support life as we know it. That's a normal coincidence, using the other definition of the word, which just means "happens at the same time" (literally co-incident), rather than the "remarkable concurrence of unrelated events" definition. Being in the habitable zone and having life occur is not unrelated at all.

 

This would appear to be a corollary of the Alanis Morissette syndrome. Much like rain on your wedding day is not ironic.

.These ducklings I have just seen illustrate what I mean !

 

post-33514-0-42382100-1429358541_thumb.jpg

 

As I passed a few minutes ago . There they were scooting about on the water surface , speeding across the top of a Dam. I thought, how foolish of the mother duck to take them near the top of this Dam . By our equivalents , it would be , like my children playing around on the wall at the top of the Hoover Dam .

 

Then one went over ! Whoosh down with the current , down stream. I thought I had just witnessed a drowning Duckling .

I thought , even it survived tumbling over the sticks , rushing water, stones, and other obstacles , like supermarket trollies , it was a goner.

 

No such thing ! The duckling barely hit the lower part of the Dam . It ran across the top of the water, up the slope of the flowing Dam waterfall. Across the surface of the upper water pond , to its mother and other chicks . ( in about 4 seconds ) . Incredible . Where did it get all that crisis , handling , skill from . ( it was probably a day old )

 

Mike

Edited by Mike Smith Cosmos
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.These ducklings I have just seen illustrate what I mean !

 

attachicon.gifimage.jpg

 

As I passed a few minutes ago . There they were scooting about on the water surface , speeding across the top of a Dam. I though how foolish of the mother duck to take them near the top of this Dam . By our equivalents , it would like my children playing around on the wall at the top of the Hoover Dam .

 

Then one went over ! Whoosh down with the current , down stream. I thought I had just witnessed a drowning Duckling .

 

Your point being…?

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As I passed a few minutes ago . There they were scooting about on the water surface , speeding across the top of a Dam. I though how foolish of the mother duck to take them near the top of this Dam . By our equivalents , it would like my children playing around on the wall at the top of the Hoover Dam .

 

Then one went over ! Whoosh down with the current , down stream. I thought I had just witnessed a drowning Duckling .

 

I have to say that I'm speechless because I never quite expected such argumentation. Now I need to put on my thinking hat and try to figure out what this riddle means :blink:

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Your point being?

Yes well! Here we are , having been brought here , one way or another to the top of a precipice . Situated on this globe , surrounded by countless dangers , beside a dark special void , across which a few , but probably not us as an individual , are preparing to cross to Mars on a one way ticket. It would make most of us shudder. Not unlike the sailors with Christopher Columbus, who nearly mutinied . Yet , now you can get an Easy-jet to America from Bristol or somewhere, this afternoon .

 

So, .. Here we are with a world , with continents bursting to capacity. Over "this side of the pond " they are pouring out of Africa, across the Mediterranean Sea to Italy . Migrant workers are pouring across from other parts of Europe into the u.k. If I pick it up correctly , in North America you have many coming from the south. We all have economic instability . Etc etc it's like being at the top of a waterfall.

 

Do we have the inbuilt skills, knowledge and energy to survive this apparent dramatic situation. If we are like a ' duckling' we probably can , if we recognise , where we are , and where mother Duck . Is ?

 

Mike

I have forgotten what the name is for this condition? It is a word that describes , a general view held by the general population . Thus not a particular person of authority or ranking , to some specific quote , but rather what is generally believed by the population ? { General Consensus }?

 

Mike

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So, .. Here we are with a world , with continents bursting to capacity. Over "this side of the pond " they are pouring out of Africa, across the Mediterranean Sea to Italy . Migrant workers are pouring across from other parts of Europe into the u.k. If I pick it up correctly , in North America you have many coming from the south.

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah 'bursting to capacity'. Even in small and over crowded Japan over 90% of population live in 5 major metropolitan areas which take up less than 13% of the total area of the country. Over 60% of the territory has population density under 200 people/km2 and the entire island of Hokkaido is less than 100 people/km2. And this is the very crowded Japan. This is not what I call 'bursting to capacity'.

 

 

We all have economic instability . Etc etc it's like being at the top of a waterfall.

 

Do we have the inbuilt skills, knowledge and energy to survive this apparent dramatic situation. If we are like a ' duckling' we probably can , if we recognise , where we are , and where mother Duck . Is ?

 

It's not really an instability, but rather 'inequality'. And I'm not sure what you refer to as 'mother Duck'. I think as a species in general we're just going with the flow and unless pretty much all of us get killed in a very short period of time we'll keep going, we'll invent means to provide food and energy to sustain growing population, we'll find means to better utilise resources of the planet, but we'll persevere until the bitter end (which is not now).

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.

 

I know you are down there in Athens Michael , where the sun shines and I could spend all my days down in the Pellepanise (...)

 

Mike

Peloponnese

I know its a bit difficult: from Pelops (the King named Pelops) and nese (Nissos - νήσος) meaning island. The island of Pelops, Pelopon-nisos, Peloponnese.

 

As for the substance of all of your posts in this thread, they are very poetic. i don't want to make you change your ideas. I hope you will allow me to disagree from the beginning till the end, on everything.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah And I'm not sure what you refer to as 'mother Duck'. ).

What a coincidence that I saw the ducklings in their plight on a day when I needed to think on the nature of mankind as is stands at the portals of the future .

All nature lovers will have seen many occasions when the fearful of a species senses danger in the way of unknown settings.

Here the ducklings found themselves led by the ' mother Duck ' to a region of excitement yet danger. Over the weir they went , unknowing the danger they were in if they made a false move( drowning, concussion, loose ones way ...) . That inbuilt learned ways and committed to the species. " in times of threat " , set in the centre of the brain stem " Fight or Flight " the oldest lesson of mankind. But in the case of the young , only one place to go ... To mother Duck. So what happened to my ducklings, if was astonishing, as soon as they realised they were being washed down stream , over the weir , hone in on mother duck above the weir. They actually ran across the water surface , as fast as surface tension would allow , across the top, up the weir along the higher water to ." Mother Duck" .

 

So the analogue of this story, As mankind finds itself under the threat of severe problems all at once on a world full of potential 'wash away ' issues. The fight and flight centre of the brain kicks in , and head for " Mother Duck " .

 

Two issues present themselves here. Flee ... With what ever reserve resources can be summoned up. So we find ourselves fighting a race for survival against all or many odds , it would be hard pushed to find a peril that is currently not in sway somewhere on the world .

 

But where to flee to ? Mother Duck . ... Perhaps we have two Mother Ducks . The easy one the visible Mother Duck. The nations of the world , have long since remembered in their history , from whence they came. In recent history the economic world emanated mainly from the English speaking world ( say England and America ) , and so in these times of strain , many are streaming into The UK. and the USA . But more further back in history humanity sought out its " Mother Duck " in its " God and Religion" and so in these critical days , more and more are running for their security to spiritual places.

 

Maybe we can learn lessons from nature ! We are part of Nature , it will help us survive if we make the higher places of the Weir and Mother Duck .

 

Mike

Your point being?

Peloponnese

 

As for the substance of all of your posts in this thread, they are very poetic. i don't want to make you change your ideas. I hope you will allow me to disagree from the beginning till the end, on everything.

On what basis?

 

Then we are doomed to die.

r.

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Yes well! Here we are , having been brought here , one way or another to the top of a precipice . Situated on this globe , surrounded by countless dangers , beside a dark special void , across which a few , but probably not us as an individual , are preparing to cross to Mars on a one way ticket. It would make most of us shudder. Not unlike the sailors with Christopher Columbus, who nearly mutinied . Yet , now you can get an Easy-jet to America from Bristol or somewhere, this afternoon .

 

So, .. Here we are with a world , with continents bursting to capacity. Over "this side of the pond " they are pouring out of Africa, across the Mediterranean Sea to Italy . Migrant workers are pouring across from other parts of Europe into the u.k. If I pick it up correctly , in North America you have many coming from the south. We all have economic instability . Etc etc it's like being at the top of a waterfall.

 

Do we have the inbuilt skills, knowledge and energy to survive this apparent dramatic situation. If we are like a ' duckling' we probably can , if we recognise , where we are , and where mother Duck . Is ?

 

 

And what does this have to do with coincidence, or lack thereof? That's the topic. How about we stick to that, for a change, instead rambling all over the place.

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And what does this have to do with coincidence, or lack thereof? That's the topic. How about we stick to that, for a change, instead rambling all over the place.

Exactly.

I don't believe in coincidences as explanations. I prefer the cause to effect process, it works better.

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Exactly.

I don't believe in coincidences as explanations. I prefer the cause to effect process, it works better.

Well if you want the ' cause and effect version ' . Then it is this deep down fundamental, reptilian part of the brain , ( the Amygdala * I believe ) , the seat of memory and emotion. ' Fight or Flight mode ' . The basic driving emotion in all sensing of danger. Probably from worms to ducks to humans . Fight the cause of fear , or flight away to safety . ( in our analogy , up the weir to 'mother Duck ' ). In this case the effect is survival, safety ,and emotional l security in the neighbourhood of ' mother Duck '

 

As regards Coincidence . I am referring to a period of time , spanning the last 100 years . During this period , :..........The greatest COINCIDENCE of all time ......human society seems to have gone into its ' Amygdala Mode Fight or flight etc .

 

Mike

 

* Amygdala :- http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdala

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As regards Coincidence . I am referring to a period of time , spanning the last 100 years . During this period , :..........

 

Doesn't really matter what period you take. I still can't see coincidence, because a coincidence by definition is:

 

 

 

...a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances without apparent causal connection.

 

while all events and circumstances surrounding humanity are connected and inter-connected in some way.

 

Let me ask you again - what are you referring to as the "mother Duck"?

Edited by pavelcherepan
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Doesn't really matter what period you take. I still can't see coincidence, because a coincidence by definition is:

 

 

 

while all events and circumstances surrounding humanity are connected and inter-connected in some way.

 

Let me ask you again - what are you referring to as the "mother Duck"?

Yes well I think somebody else mentioned " Coincidence , does not necessarily exclude , causal connection, in your definition it includes the word ' apparent ' , in other words one would assume no connection , when there is , behind the scenes a very ' real ' connection.

 

As regards ' Mother Duck ' ....

 

Well if you are prepared for the sake of this conversation , (for a temporary suspension of disbelief ) , to run for a short while, with my cameo of the ducklings , straying to the edge of the weir , and going over, then scampering back , skimming over the water, up the weir in reverse , and back to the vicinity of ' mother Duck ' then :-

 

I know because I was there ( born 1943 ) , and could speak to my mother and father ( he was born in 1901) , so I have both actual experience and first hand referred discussion.

 

The world seemed to change , away from the domestic farming life, people were going abroad , all over the place, people were abandoning their traditional way of life and religion and looking for something else , down the weir, new clear waters. They emigrated to Australia, Africa , across the globe.

Then the fear came , the financial system that had held good since 'bank 's began with the first 'bench or bank ' under the Realto bridge in Italy ' when lending came into vogue. Broke . The Wall Street crash ! And more recently the bank collapse a few years ago. The wars came , some of the most , horrific wars of history have plagued recent times.

 

I can remember, because I was 20/ 21 years old when the 1960's struck. We all thought we were about to ' ' be blown to h...' . The nuclear bombs, the Cuba missile crisis , when we were poised on the brink of a nuclear exchange. J.F.Kenady shot .....the years of ' rock and roll' . We were like baby ducklings down the weir. Frightened " Where is Mother Duck ." we asked . Some put flowers in their hair , others took drugs, others listened to loud Rock & Roll. Some sought answers in foreign Eastern religion, others ran around with no clothes on ' the streakers ' many have sought answers , not in the established religions but have run hither and thither looking for answers wherever they can find one .. They have been seeking ' Mother Duck' .

 

So here we are in this last 100 years in a world , so , so different , than anything that has gone before , in all human history.

 

Is this not the most significant Coincidence of all time ?

 

. That it is NOW . when we are poised at the edge of the Cosmic Ocean as Karl Sagan put it . Or on the edge of ' whatever ' ...........

 

Suspension of disbelief -- re-connected .

 

 

Boy ! Am I glad . To have lived in this century (100 years), of human history. To see the things and experience first hand what has taken place in this ' greatest coincidence of all time ' ! Right Now. In front of us .

 

Mike

Edited by Mike Smith Cosmos
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