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The reality of atmospheric/near space anomalies


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#21 jeremyjr

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Posted 2 October 2014 - 08:37 PM

 

And yet you are jumping straight from "unidentified but with possible mundane explanation" to "controlled!! intelligent!!! plasma!!1!"

 

Please list all the alternative causes you have considered and the precise steps you have taken to rule them out.

 I have never refer to anomalies as "intelligent" you are putting words in my mouth, by your comments I can infer that you will never understand my position, you are "attacking" the "problem" from a dogmatic point of view. This is really extraordinary simple and the result of direct observations, if you do not have any experience doing atmospheric observations, all your "conclusions" are assumptions as simple as that.

 Let me just make clear that the "plasma" idea is a hypothesis, based in the plasma-like/amorphous appearance of these objects, that very likely by all accumulated experience that I have are not carbon based, but that need to be verified directly of course.

 

 One thing, again is crystal clear, many of the footage presented here do not have a known mundane explanation, at least not one that I know of, assuming that there is one is just another assumption based on nothing.

 

 That is the "classical" simplistic( and wrong ) debunking approach: We have just a list of possible "explanations"( a very short list by the way ) and then by a "interpolation" process we "pick" the "closest" explanation possible then we "claim" by "Occam razor" than that is the more "likely" explanation. Far from being anything close to be scientific.

 

 I recommend you to really watch the footage presented and read what I had posted, then when you present here something that resembles anything close to a serious analysis then I will consider your input, just be aware that there are a lot of time and effort behind any footage presented here and I have done my homework, I expect that you do yours.


Edited by jeremyjr, 2 October 2014 - 08:39 PM.

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#22 Strange

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Posted 2 October 2014 - 08:43 PM

 I have never refer to anomalies as "intelligent" you are putting words in my mouth, by your comments I can infer that you will never understand my position, you are "attacking" the "problem" from a dogmatic point of view.

 

I am not "attacking the problem" whatever that means. I am commenting on your apparent lack of critical thinking. But feel free to prove me wrong:

Please list all the alternative causes you have considered and the precise steps you have taken to rule them out.

 

 

assuming that there is [a mundane explanation] is just another assumption based on nothing.

 

It is the obvious default assumption. The null hypothesis. It is up to you to provide evidence (beyond "hey look at this") that the reasonable assumption is invalid. Making the assertion "do not have a known mundane explanation" is unconvincing unless you provide details of which mundane explanations have been considered and what exact steps have been taken to eliminate them.


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#23 jeremyjr

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Posted 2 October 2014 - 09:17 PM

 

I am not "attacking the problem" whatever that means. I am commenting on your apparent lack of critical thinking. But feel free to prove me wrong:

Please list all the alternative causes you have considered and the precise steps you have taken to rule them out.

 

 

It is the obvious default assumption. The null hypothesis. It is up to you to provide evidence (beyond "hey look at this") that the reasonable assumption is invalid. Making the assertion "do not have a known mundane explanation" is unconvincing unless you provide details of which mundane explanations have been considered and what exact steps have been taken to eliminate them.

 

 Again your dogmatic approach is crystal clear, if you have read my posts and you have watched the footage you will have the answers to your questions, but it looks like you want everything spell out for you, again do your homework I am not going to do it for you. I am not looking for "your" approval by the way, I do not need it.


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#24 andrewcellini

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Posted 2 October 2014 - 09:25 PM

you keep saying they look like plasma. that's hardly an explanation. your posts are just conjectures with these videos.

 

there is nothing dogmatic about not accepting your explanation when it comes with no evidence. 

 

how is it that you can conclude that they are plasma? i'm not looking for "because they are plasma like." i don't even know what that's supposed to mean or how these videos show that. 


Edited by andrewcellini, 2 October 2014 - 09:26 PM.

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#25 Strange

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Posted 2 October 2014 - 09:26 PM

 

 Again your dogmatic approach is crystal clear

 

I have read your posts. The only thing I am being "dogmatic" about is that you have not explained how you have eliminated mundane causes. You have just asserted they are not possible.

 

Your reluctance to answer this very simple question suggests you have made no such effort. You have just decided, arbitrarily, that there can't be one. Sorry, not convincing.

 

And it is this lack of rigour in your approach that will cause people to be sceptical, not any sort of dogma or taboo.

 

Insulting your audience is not really going to help, either.

 

Also, "watch the video" is not a good argument as there is nothing to judge size, distance, speed or to separate camera movement from movement of the object. Plus, human perception is a notoriously unreliable tool (as has been demonstrated by Actual Science™).


Edited by Strange, 2 October 2014 - 09:27 PM.

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#26 jeremyjr

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Posted 2 October 2014 - 09:52 PM

you keep saying they look like plasma. that's hardly an explanation. your posts are just conjectures with these videos.

 

there is nothing dogmatic about not accepting your explanation when it comes with no evidence. 

 

how is it that you can conclude that they are plasma? i'm not looking for "because they are plasma like." i don't even know what that's supposed to mean or how these videos show that. 

 

 

 Example of plasma-like anomalies, please watch the footage, if you do not watch it, you really will not know what I mean by plasma-like, I said plasma-like to convey an image, of a self-luminous localized, amorphous object(anomaly), examples follow:( All footage is time stamped in real time and the spotter footage contains azimuth, elevation data, all time is EST )

 

1- Spotted on 09/29/14 and tracked from 10:59 am to 11:40 am when its path was close to a second anomaly:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFnVVY8WWZk

The second anomaly that was spotted the same day at 11:41 am when its path was "close" to the one that was being tracked since 10:59am:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV7Ny_lMmk8

 

2- Spotted on 09/28/14 and tracked from 5:14 pm to 5:48 pm:

https://www.youtube....h?v=gEFLxOw28a0

 

3- Spotted on 08/01/14 4:11 pm:

https://www.youtube....h?v=rmHseUuXBG4

 

4- 07/25/14 4:52 pm:

https://www.youtube....h?v=0Ahcpm5BSZ8

 

5- 04/27/14 3:46 pm:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMOuApnOO6I

and at 4:08 pm this anomaly responded to light signals:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CAp1CdGR7Y

the same anomaly at 4:32pm:

https://www.youtube....h?v=m_V5FAf_F4o

 

 And many, many more ... These plasma-like anomalies are a constant presence in our atmosphere, it is up to you to verify that or not. I am not claiming what they are, but as I already said previously, independently of what they are, they are real and they are not any "standard" mundane object, whatever they are it is something "new", unknown to many, but many people around the world are already aware of this, some people have been aware of this since the 1950's.


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#27 Strange

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Posted 2 October 2014 - 10:39 PM

 

they are not any "standard" mundane object

 

How do you know that?


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#28 jeremyjr

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Posted 2 October 2014 - 11:00 PM

 

How do you know that?

 

 Ok, let me spell out some trivial things for you:

 

 Why do I know that they are not any "standard" mundane objects, well let me enumerate these standard mundane objects for you:

 

1- Astronomical objects, besides the obvious Sun and Moon, in daylight you can spot in daylight some other bright astronomical objects in daylight( remember this is always in daylight ) a simple check to any star chart of the day giving the azimuth, elevation of the objects spotted will be enough for you to determine if any of these objects is an astronomical object, but anybody with a minimal level of daylight astronomy will know that these objects are not astronomical objects, mainly for the area of the sky where they are moving and the direction/apparent speed of their movement

 

2- Satellites are really out of the picture.

 

3- Airplanes/drones, man made flying objects also outside of the picture.

 

4- Balloons, none of this objects resembles, even remotely a balloon, if you have never seen footage of a balloon taken from a high optical magnification scope I have a whole section in my YT channel titled: "Visual references" where I post many recording of "standard" mundane objects, as a reference, in there you will find many examples of balloons, right now as a coincidence I am uploading a reference of Sirius in daylight, maybe when you read this that footage will be already online.

 

5- Birds, bugs: also out of the picture.

 

6- Floating debris: easily identifiable with the equipment used.

 

Now if you have any new "suggestion" to which mundane object any of these plasma-like/amorphous self-luminous objects can be I am eager to hear it.

 

Also, as I have explained before, one of these plasma-like objects responded unequivocally to light signals sent in its direction, no mundane object that I know of will do that.

 

 Addition:

 

Sirius in daylight, cross check with star map.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=zhyeAwOe00s

Identifying correctly the brightest astronomical objects in daylight(besides the obvious sun and the moon) is necessary to avoid false positives, after some practice identifying these bright astronomical objects is really not difficult( after learning from some mistakes ), their "signature" is their almost constant brightness, their very smooth and "ballistic" trajectory and of course going to a star map will confirm your suspicions. Sirius is very bright, magnitude -1.46, a lot more at this moment than Mars, magnitude 0.86, and Mars is also easily spotted in IR in daylight as can be seen here:

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=h4iv_W5QwfI


Edited by jeremyjr, 2 October 2014 - 11:16 PM.

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#29 Phi for All

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Posted 2 October 2014 - 11:01 PM

 

 Again your dogmatic approach is crystal clear, if you have read my posts and you have watched the footage you will have the answers to your questions, but it looks like you want everything spell out for you, again do your homework I am not going to do it for you. I am not looking for "your" approval by the way, I do not need it.

 

!

Moderator Note

That's not how it works at SFN, ever, and especially in the Speculations sub-forum. You're making extraordinary claims, which need to be backed up with extraordinary evidence. The questions being asked of you aren't dogmatic, they're the very basis of the scientific method. 

 

The "homework" needs to be done by you. You need to show more rigor in your approach to this phenomenon, otherwise your explanations for it can't be taken seriously. Step by step, the methodology allows us to trust our conclusions about our observations. 

 

The members you're discussing this with are trying to be helpful. You seem eager to jump to your conclusions, and they're just trying to help you formulate a stronger hypothesis. 

 

No need to respond to this modnote, since that would be off-topic. If you disagree with it, report it.


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#30 jeremyjr

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Posted 3 October 2014 - 12:25 AM

 

[modtip]That's not how it works at SFN, ever, and especially in the Speculations sub-forum. You're making extraordinary claims, which need to be backed up with extraordinary evidence. The questions being asked of you aren't dogmatic, they're the very basis of the scientific method. 

 

The "homework" needs to be done by you. You need to show more rigor in your approach to this phenomenon, otherwise your explanations for it can't be taken seriously. Step by step, the methodology allows us to trust our conclusions about our observations. 

 

The members you're discussing this with are trying to be helpful. You seem eager to jump to your conclusions, and they're just trying to help you formulate a stronger hypothesis. 

 

No need to respond to this modnote, since that would be off-topic. If you disagree with it, report it.[/modtip]

 

 

Even when somehow I will respect this forum rules, I want to make a point regarding what I will call formal/dogmatic/rigid methods that some people call "scientific", but other people, like me, do not share that view.

 

 Making a little history about the problem at hand, as I mentioned before the reality of anomalies have been known to some people since the 1950's( read Trevor J Constable book: "They Live in the Sky" ), ever since that time some organizations have dedicated themselves to the collection of what is known as "sightings", there are still a few of these organizations around, but have you hear any breakthrough or insight from them? Whatever methods they were/are using (some of the methods used by these organizations are not different to the ones proposed from some people here), are a completely and utterly failure, they failed to recognize the evidence that they were collecting, and they failed in the more basic scientific step that you can make to verify any of these sightings: making active observations yourself.

 

 They analyzed, and over analyzed "evidence" coming from somebody else, but somehow they were unable to realize that just making active observations they will be able to duplicate many of these "sightings" and that is the ultimate verification that is needed. They were too concerned applying "scientific rigid methods", so if these methods failed, and they had failed now for more than 50 years, that means that there is something wrong with the methods used, if people with just very limited resources can make systematic observations of non mundane anomalies and some organizations with almost unlimited resources have not reported anything of that sort, if that is not an indication of a systemic failure on the methods used by these organizations I really do not know what it is.

 

 So even when I really believe in the scientific method, I am very wary of using any of the "methods" that these organizations were using because these methods are in great part the cause of the situation that we are right now. 


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#31 Endy0816

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Posted 3 October 2014 - 03:21 AM

I could see a discussion of possibilities(ball lightning and thermal inversion mirages) spring to mind, but jumping to living plasma is a bit much.

 

Without applying the scientific method all you have is literally speculation and you cannot advance beyond that point. Someone else can speculate otherwise and the two or more speculations cancel each other out as neither is backed by facts.


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#32 pzkpfw

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Posted 3 October 2014 - 03:43 AM

Personally, I welcome our new squiggle-blob overlords.

All hail the squiggle-blobs.
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#33 Phi for All

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Posted 3 October 2014 - 04:26 AM

So even when I really believe in the scientific method, I am very wary of using any of the "methods" that these organizations were using because these methods are in great part the cause of the situation that we are right now. 

 

!

Moderator Note

The situation you're in right now is that you need to provide extraordinary evidence to back up your extraordinary claims or your thread will be closed. Nobody wants to listen to you preach about your ideas, they want to discuss your ideas in a scientific manner, most likely because this is a science discussion forum. 

 

Please. Do not respond to modnotes. You're objections to using the scientific method are off-topic for this thread.


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#34 jeremyjr

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Posted 3 October 2014 - 07:34 AM

 Part of the evidence have been presented. Lets me repeat here these are observational claims, many of these anomalies have been observed for more than one hour, no "mirage" or "ball lightning" can explain that, using that as an "explanation" is syntactic, there is no semantics behind that "explanation", is the "classical" dismissal by the people that usually are assuming and they are taking for granted their preconceptions/expectations as the "reality" that is out there. 

 

Anybody with the right tools can duplicate that( and the tools needed by the way are readily available to anyone ), having something verifiable independently is at the core of the scientific method, now bogging down in endless discussions( very similar discussions have been around for more than 50 years ) without doing the very basic verification of independent observations some people may call that "scientific" I call that something else.


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#35 andrewcellini

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Posted 3 October 2014 - 07:43 AM

you haven't presented any evidence to conclude this is "plasma, plasma like, alive, responsive to light" etc, what do you expect everyone else to do? these videos are the only evidence you have presented, and your explanations of them are not explanations; they are merely statements of belief followed by tangents about the scientific method. do you want discussion about the validity of your claims or do you want to have a discussion about all the possible fictitious properties of our little ufo friends? 

 

this can only be said so many times before it becomes redundant. surely you have somehow tested to conclude these are not merely balloons, or birds, or rc vehicles, how did you do this? 


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#36 jeremyjr

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Posted 3 October 2014 - 08:49 AM

  The case of lightning sprites is really very similar(http://en.wikipedia....ite_(lightning).

 

  After it was reported several times by pilots an independent verification was done from the space station and that verification confirmed the reality of lightning sprites. And sprites are a really very hard to spot phenomena.

 

   Now if that very sporadic and hard to spot phenomena was independently verified by doing consistent observations trying to witness it, it will be easy and simple to understand by almost anybody that anomalies, that have been reported almost in a daily basis should be subject to the same standard and be independently verified by doing systematic atmospheric observations, it is really that simple.


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#37 jeremyjr

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Posted 4 October 2014 - 04:02 PM

 The people doing active atmospheric observations have been inspired and continue to be inspired by the great men of science. These men of science had teach us not to take on faith anything that is claimed by any "expert", they have teach us not to accept as rock solid "common sense" or "common wisdom", many great discoveries have been done by questioning what was accepted for almost the totality of humanity. That constant inquiry is at the core of the scientific thinking. Actually history teach us that as a rule in questions of science the majority is almost always wrong, that is one of the reasons why science is not done by "democratic" means. 

 

 Now any person with not preconceived ideas when presented with the "problem" of the reality of anomalies is faced with a dichotomy:

 

1- On one side that person will find that some people like Gabriela Decall of Argentina, with keen observational skills and armed with a digital camera, she had video captured amazing objects(https://www.youtube....byDecall/videos), with extraordinary mental clarity and pure curiosity she had documented many anomalies, using just a digital camera that you can get for less than $50 in Ebay.

 

2- On the other hand that person with no preconceptions, will have the "scientific community/experts/analysts" with "cutting edge" scientific methods, this scientific community is claiming that there is not such a thing, that these anomalies are "mirages", "camera artifacts", "balloons", "plastic bags trapped in thermal air currents", etc.

 

  But this person with no preconceived ideas, will go to other places and will realize that there is an amazing consistency on many of the video footage presented by active observers like Gabriela Decall, this person then will realize that there is something real behind these recordings. Then the only thing that this person with not preconceived ideas is left to do is just to try and verify by himself what all these people around the world are reporting, that is what I did and that is what I am reporting here. I had learned a lot since I started doing active observations almost two years ago and I have validated/confirmed many of the recordings done by people like Gabriela Decall and they have done that using just naked eye observations, by using now infrared in a dual optical system their observations can be systematized, but in essence is a confirmation of what they already have been recording for years using just digital cameras and naked eye spotting, what they have done is really amazing and they have been dismissed/ignored for years. Many of these same anomalies were reported by Trevor J Constable in the 1950's, I learned that well after I already had watched many of the same anomalies that he had already described, so a cycle of rediscovery have been going on since the 1950's where people starting active atmospheric observations rediscover the same things over and over.

 

 There have been little systematization, zero classification of anomalies, many misconceptions and myths are common, just like alchemy before chemistry.   


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#38 jeremyjr

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Posted 5 October 2014 - 07:45 PM

 To have everything related to anomalies consolidated in one place let me add here some speculative ideas that I had posted elsewhere:

 

 Life based on carbon needs very especial conditions to thrive, life on earth is a clear example of that. Lots of time and research have been dedicated trying to find carbon based life elsewhere on the Universe, but that search may be too narrow because that search assumes that life can only be based on carbon.

 

 In the 2008 book: "Elementary Physics of Complex Plasmas", by authors V. N. Tsytovich et al.(http://en.bookfi.org/book/455683) It is mentioned the "self-organization tendency of complex plasma" and the following striking fact: "that the description of electrostatics of DNA is surprisingly similar to that used in complex plasmas". That lead immediately to think that maybe the spontaneous genesis of Life is not the exclusivity of complex organic chemical soups but also that could be shared by complex plasmas.

 

If plasma based life is a reality, then that kind of life may have been present in our Universe since very early after the Big Ban( if we accept that the Big Ban is a solid knowledge, the reality of anomalies place a big question mark in almost everything that we assume that we know about the Universe ), and if plasma based life follows more or less the same principles that carbon based life, then plasma based life forms had plenty of time to expand all over the Universe.

 

Carbon based life forms could have not emerged very early in our Universe because the basic elements for carbon based life forms are created inside stars, so that implies that several billions years have to pass before these elements are abundant enough for carbon based life forms to be a reality. It could be argued( The Anthropic Principle ) that for us to be here the Universe needs to be as old as it is, but that argument do not applies to plasma based life forms. Anomalies could be a manifestation of that type of life forms and they could be pervasive all over the Universe.

 

If that is the case then ironically carbon based life forms could be the rarest/anomalous occurrence in the Universe. Then in a very accurate sense anomalies could name us "anomalies" and that will reflect more accurately the actual situation.

 

Since plasma based life forms can move freely in empty space we have immediately the following:

 

•In the same way that we have macroscopic and microscopic life forms here on earth it is very likely that we will find also microscopic anomalies, the anomalies observed until now have been macroscopic.

 

•The fact that anomalies are life forms and they can move freely in empty space implies that they will be pervasive, at least in almost the totality of the solar system, very likely beyond that.

 

•Space is then "non empty" as was though before, but it have to be considered as a vast "ecosystem" with an astronomical number of different types/species of anomalies.

 

•If anomalies are life forms and they are pervasive at least in all the solar system is evident then that they will have a very deep relationship with any life forms in the solar system, including all life forms on earth, that relationship will be one of the aspects that any research of anomalies will have to study.

 

•Since anomalies are pervasive in all the solar system and very likely beyond that their numbers are really astronomical and maybe their possible presence in all the Universe will have a "Cosmological effect" that have not been taken in count before.

 

•Life is present/pervasive through the Universe.


Edited by jeremyjr, 5 October 2014 - 08:00 PM.

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#39 andrewcellini

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Posted 5 October 2014 - 08:08 PM

a lot of ifs and assertions and no evidence.

 

you don't even know if what you've filmed is plasma. 


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#40 jeremyjr

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Posted 5 October 2014 - 11:27 PM

a lot of ifs and assertions and no evidence.

 

you don't even know if what you've filmed is plasma. 

 

 Anomalies are real, whether you agree with that or not, I am trying to provide some possible explanation for what I am observing almost in a daily basis, I said "some speculative ideas". As I mentioned already with real curiosity, no preconceptions and armed with a digital camera with high optical zoom that may cost less than $50 in Ebay you may get a glimpse of anomalies, using a dual optical system as described above you will be able to spot them easily. But of course that is up to you: you can continue posting excuses or you can actually go outside and observe the real world, real science always start by doing that.


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