[dimreepr]

Greg Boyles, on 19 October 2011 - 07:23 AM, said:

Was watching a doco about this and how humans and great apes are the only species that seem to realise that their reflection in a mirror is them and that they therefore have self awareness.

But I was thinking about this in terms of my dog.

I find it very difficult to believe that Rocky does not have just as intense sense of self awareness as myself, even if he does not have the cognitive capability to project himself into his own future or perhaps even into his own past.

Yet according to this test, since he would not be able to recognize himself in the mirror, he therefore must have not have a sense of self awreness.

Surely the mirror test is more a test of the cognitive ability to reason, i.e. that since the other entity does everything that I do it must be me, rather that the existence of self awareness.

i think your right, I see no reason to assume that the inability to recognise your reflection should result in this absolute. Dogs are very capable of learning basic tasks and interacting with the pack. This must mean atleast a basic sense of the self in order to inturpret the behaviour of others. This however doesn't mean that all socially interactive animals are, wilderbeast for instance, evolved to be as stupid as possible* and so I feel is unlikely to have a sense of self. Somewhere then there must excist an animal that has just an iota of awareness.

* they must be unintellegent in order for swam intellegence too work.

This post has been edited by dimreepr: 11 December 2011 - 02:27 PM

[Tres Juicy]

Firstly, I have to admit to not reading the entire thread here...

But, what about animals who live by the waters edge and see their reflections all the time?

I'm thinking certain fishing birds...

Surely they know

[Schrödinger's hat]

I always interpreted such tests as being considered sufficient but not necessary.
If a crow uses its reflection to locate a piece of tape on one of its feathers, or an ape uses it to remove a smudge on its face then we know the animal realises the reflection is themselves.
If they don't react, we only know that they didn't react.
Was I wrong in this line of reasoning? Is a non-reaction considered positive evidence of non-self-awareness (rather than lack of evidence for self-awareness)?

[dimreepr]

Schrödinger, on 12 December 2011 - 02:54 PM, said:

I always interpreted such tests as being considered sufficient but not necessary.
If a crow uses its reflection to locate a piece of tape on one of its feathers, or an ape uses it to remove a smudge on its face then we know the animal realises the reflection is themselves.
If they don't react, we only know that they didn't react.
Was I wrong in this line of reasoning? Is a non-reaction considered positive evidence of non-self-awareness (rather than lack of evidence for self-awareness)?

Quite right. By the way is your hat in any danger?

[qijino1236]

How you know it is you in the mirror? Maybe it is just god trying to copy what your consciousness thinks you are doing?

[Nassar Jad]

I don't believe in self awareness, it's either you know the reflection of your image process, or in the case of the monkey, you'll figure out that the movements in the mirror are the same in the non virtual world, I also don't believe that monkeys and humans are the only beings that knowledge and identify them self in the mirror, don't forget that mirrors and very frequently present in nature (water, ice, shadows...) I support the idea of testing it on your dog, if he gets familiar with the mirror, I'm sure he'll identify itself in it.

[Sorcerer]

Schrödinger, on 12 December 2011 - 02:54 PM, said:

I always interpreted such tests as being considered sufficient but not necessary.
If a crow uses its reflection to locate a piece of tape on one of its feathers, or an ape uses it to remove a smudge on its face then we know the animal realises the reflection is themselves.
If they don't react, we only know that they didn't react.
Was I wrong in this line of reasoning? Is a non-reaction considered positive evidence of non-self-awareness (rather than lack of evidence for self-awareness)?

I've seen a cat lick its ass in front of the mirror.

[Tres Juicy]

Sorcerer, on 13 December 2011 - 01:16 PM, said:

I've seen a cat lick its ass in front of the mirror.

Beautiful... if thats not the pinacle of conciousness, what is?

[Sorcerer]

Wanking over internet porn?