Moontanman

Hive minds, Fermi paradox...

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I keep coming back to the fermi paradox and I wonder if beings we could understand simply do not exist due to evolution not having a goal and the direction toward intelligence as we see it is simply so rare as to have an almost zero chance of existing. I use the term hive mind to suggest civilizations like insects not a real hive mind. Such hives or cooperatives are not unusual on Earth, they mimic quite a bit of what we seem to do as thinking beings. 

Across the universe such "hives" could be the standard and none of them would be interested in us as anything but a possible threat or a source of raw materials. 

But could a mindless collective Hive develop technology? We see intelligence in places like our oceans but no matter how smart them become certain technologies would simply not be possible for them. Is there any reason to assume the save about super organisms like crustacean, insect, other non thinking beings "hives"? 

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I think intelligence builds on itself. Not sure if it's an exponential process, but I think a few inspired ideas can lead to rapid improvements. If the improvements can lead to even more inspired ideas, I think the progression to technology might happen. 

Is the hive mind capable of inspired ideas? I keep thinking about the steps between a chimpanzee using a twig to fish for termites, and making a belt out of grass fibers to hold his favorite termite twig so he doesn't have to make a new one every time he's hungry. Is that similar to ants climbing onto a floating leaf to cross the water? 

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8 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I think intelligence builds on itself. Not sure if it's an exponential process, but I think a few inspired ideas can lead to rapid improvements. If the improvements can lead to even more inspired ideas, I think the progression to technology might happen. 

Is the hive mind capable of inspired ideas? I keep thinking about the steps between a chimpanzee using a twig to fish for termites, and making a belt out of grass fibers to hold his favorite termite twig so he doesn't have to make a new one every time he's hungry. Is that similar to ants climbing onto a floating leaf to cross the water? 

 While I agree with you you must admit that chimps do not grow crops or domesticate animals. Nor do they keep slaves or build massive structures, all of which super organisms do quite well... I think it's plausible to think of ants or termites using the equivalent of fire as well, we have never seen it but I can see how a termite species might use a slow smoldering fire to heat their towers during a winter. Such a fire could possibly spring into being spontaneously deep in a mound and the natural ventilation methods used by these insects could be used to control the smoldering reaction. Difficult to imagine where they could go from there with it... 

Have you ever read "West of Eden" ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_of_Eden

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Another thought I have on this. Social animals would only be limited by what biological evolution can accomplish, in my fire example above i can see how mindless processes could bring about this. It's almost as natural as the gardens, livestock, complex above and below ground cities, but a natural yet mindless path to other technology is difficult to see. Possibly such organisms wouldn't recognise our path to technology either assuming they would eventually get the ability to ponder this. 

An outrageous assertion: Possibly AI could evolve this way, AI in this case being an actual mind being built by either the biological components of the superorganism or technology developed by the superorganism.

The more I think about this the less certain I am that super organisms could not develop technology...    

Imagine a civilization of ant like creatures exploiting the resources of outer planetary system and interstellar space to build and or grow habitats but we would be unaware of each other... 

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I think this phenomena could be the next step in super colonies becoming mega super colonies. 

http://ants.com/5-ant-supercolonies-worlds-largest-ant-colonies/

 

Quote

 

Argentine Ants in California

Argentine ants have also created another supercolony in California that scientists call the “Californian large.” This gigantic colony spreads over 560 miles along the California coast. Scientists who are studying these colonies realize that unlike other ant colonies, Argentine ants can recognize each other as part of the same species and not attack other colonies. Instead, they’ll work together to keep building their nests larger and taking over more land.

 

Eventually such colonies could take over planet paving the way for further advancement in the face of competition. The point at which biological evolution would be capable of extending past what we would consider it's limits is debatable even for it's existence but it still mirrors human civilization, technology and domination...

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Another this is that on the Earth pseudo intelligence has evolved many times in many types of animals. Maybe we are the outlier and on most planets of of the hive organisms eventually dominates the planet. On Earth even a species of vertebrate appears to be going down the path of a queen that controls the rest of the Naked Mole Rats via hormonal suppression of mating and having babies. The "sterile" sisters forage for food and take care of the queens young. For this behavior to arise in vertebrates is suggestive that super organisms may rule the cosmos...

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On 11/30/2017 at 1:53 PM, Moontanman said:

 While I agree with you you must admit that chimps do not grow crops or domesticate animals. Nor do they keep slaves or build massive structures, all of which super organisms do quite well... I think it's plausible to think of ants or termites using the equivalent of fire as well, we have never seen it but I can see how a termite species might use a slow smoldering fire to heat their towers during a winter. Such a fire could possibly spring into being spontaneously deep in a mound and the natural ventilation methods used by these insects could be used to control the smoldering reaction. Difficult to imagine where they could go from there with it... 

Have you ever read "West of Eden" ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_of_Eden

That is a really good book. One of the more realistic takes on how technology might have developed for another species.

Cant recall the details now, but I was actually looking for East of Eden and picked that up by mistake. Thought the Dinosaurs were a bit odd, even for Steinbeck.

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So your saying that Star ship trooper's aliens are real. Maybe there is no reason to think that intelligence could not evolve that way given the diversity of life on earth, like ant colonies and such along with how much more diverse the Universe would be then that. Given that there are more stars systems  in the Universe then every grain of sand of every beach in the world within the Universe.

starship-troopers-pic-4.png

 

 

 

Edited by Vmedvil
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4 hours ago, Vmedvil said:

So your saying that Star ship trooper's aliens are real. Maybe there is no reason to think that intelligence could not evolve that way given the diversity of life on earth, like ant colonies and such along with how much more diverse the Universe would be then that. Given that there are more stars systems  in the Universe then every grain of sand of every beach in the world within the Universe.

starship-troopers-pic-4.png

 

 

 

 

While starship troopers isn't exactly what I had in mind, the movie was more or less, mostly less, what I am talking about. If a superorganism can achieve a level of technology that is on a par with human agrarian society what to stop them from exceeding our own?   

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12 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

 

While starship troopers isn't exactly what I had in mind, the movie was more or less, mostly less, what I am talking about. If a superorganism can achieve a level of technology that is on a par with human agrarian society what to stop them from exceeding our own?   

Well, ya if they had a equal IQ to that of all the humans existing during that time, if ∑(bugs IQ) = ∑(humans IQ) @ 10,000 BC then sure, if ∑(bugs IQ) = ∑(humans IQ) @ 1969 then odds are they could go to their moon or a nearby body or have the ability of space travel.

Edited by Vmedvil

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On 30/11/2017 at 6:09 PM, Moontanman said:

I keep coming back to the fermi paradox and I wonder if beings we could understand simply do not exist due to evolution not having a goal and the direction toward intelligence as we see it is simply so rare as to have an almost zero

1

I think distance and time is a more compelling argument, we've only been looking for 50ish years and we've only just (or are about to) started to send focused transmissions to likely candidates, so even if another equal civilisation has been sending focused transmissions for the past 100 years the chances are that transmission hasn't reached us yet, even if they targeted us (the probability of which is very small). 

 

On 30/11/2017 at 6:09 PM, Moontanman said:

I use the term hive mind to suggest civilizations like insects not a real hive mind. Such hives or cooperatives are not unusual on Earth, they mimic quite a bit of what we seem to do as thinking beings. 

Across the universe such "hives" could be the standard and none of them would be interested in us as anything but a possible threat or a source of raw materials. 

But could a mindless collective Hive develop technology? We see intelligence in places like our oceans but no matter how smart them become certain technologies would simply not be possible for them. Is there any reason to assume the save about super organisms like crustacean, insect, other non thinking beings "hives"? 

5

The problem, as I see it, with this hypothesis is, the intelligence displayed by such colonies is only apparent intelligence because the members of the colony are effectively very stupid, for it to work.  Having said that I could see, with right algorithm, an intelligence that could mimic human intelligence; but they would lack the politics and imperative to want to understand the universe or to seek out extra-planetary life.

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