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Blasphemy (Aether, really)


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#81 swansont

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Posted Yesterday, 10:48 AM

Hi Thanks for the reply,

 

Your answer seems to be disagreeing with the 

 

Andromeda

 

 

 

It's been established that Andromeda is not approaching us at anything close to the speed of light.


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#82 Handy andy

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Posted Yesterday, 11:07 AM

 

 

 

It's been established that Andromeda is not approaching us at anything close to the speed of light.

 

I know but it is approaching, and will collide spoiling everyones day in a few years time, and since it is approaching it must be blue shifted. 

 

Special relativity applies only to inertial frames, which has me a little confused. Does this mean only where gravity exists. All particles are subject to gravity.  In the vacuum of space I understand there is matter, all be it not very dense and therefore there must be gravity between these particles, in the expanding space.  

 

Can someone explain.

 

The space between galaxies is increasing at above light speed, and c is just the maximum velocity we can percieve. Under relativity every situation is considered by relative velocities of objects, particles, people(george nd gracie), galaxies etc with reference to each other.

 

So a galaxy can move away from us at above light speed, and conversely must be able to approach us at above light speed, even if none have been detected. Andromeda is blue shifted, is there a max to blue shift before it cant shift any more. Would we even be able to percieve matter galaxies approaching us with a velocity greater than light from another inertial reference frame. DOH


Edited by Handy andy, Yesterday, 11:23 AM.

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#83 swansont

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Posted Yesterday, 11:20 AM

 

I know but it is approaching, and will collide spoiling everyones day in a few years time, and since it is approaching it must be blue shifted. 

 

Special relativity applies only to inertial frames, which has me a little confused. Does this mean only where gravity exists. All particles are subject to gravity.  In the vacuum of space I understand there is matter, all be it not very dense and therefore there must be gravity between these particles.  

 

Can you explain.

 

If the space between galaxies is increasing at above light speed.

 

 

The fact that some galaxies are receding at greater than light speed does not mean this is happening everywhere. The recession from expansion is proportional to the distance from us. Distant objects recede faster than nearer ones. 


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#84 Handy andy

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Posted Yesterday, 11:27 AM

 

 

The fact that some galaxies are receding at greater than light speed does not mean this is happening everywhere. The recession from expansion is proportional to the distance from us. Distant objects recede faster than nearer ones. 

 

Sorrry I added a bit to my post above whilst you were posting

 

The space between galaxies is increasing at above light speed, and c is just the maximum velocity we can percieve. Under relativity every situation is considered by relative velocities of objects, particles, people(george and gracie), galaxies etc with reference to each other.

 

So a galaxy can move away from us at above light speed, and conversely must be able to approach us at above light speed, even if none have been detected. Andromeda is blue shifted, is there a max to blue shift before it cant shift any more?. Would we even be able to percieve matter galaxies approaching us with a velocity greater than light from another inertial reference frame, if space was contracting between us and it at above light speed. 


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#85 Strange

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Posted Yesterday, 12:01 PM

Hi Thanks All for the replies.
 
I am still a little confused between inertial velocity and the speed of galaxies in relation to each other, as I imagine others may be. I fully understand  the ABCDEF description above. But am guessing special relativity only applies to inertial reference frame locally, not on a galactic scale. If this is the case how does it stand up in an accelerating observable universe I am getting more confused, and am resetting to a none detectable ether string theory


As you say, SR doesn't apply on cosmological scales, so the expanding/ accelerating universe makes no difference. Calculations on that scale are derived from GR.

@ Strange How is Andromeda not blue shifted. Are you stating you dont believe Andromeda is coming this way or that the Blue shift is nonsense and should be ignored. 


Andromeda is blue shifted because of relative motion in our local cluster.
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#86 Handy andy

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Posted Yesterday, 02:50 PM

As you say, SR doesn't apply on cosmological scales, so the expanding/ accelerating universe makes no difference. Calculations on that scale are derived from GR.


Andromeda is blue shifted because of relative motion in our local cluster.

 

Previously quoted There is local motion within our galaxy cluster, which means that some galaxies are moving towards one another. On cosmological scales everything is moving away from everything else and so there is only red-shift.

 

I am easily confused however I found this pdf. It explains the misunderstandings and where they come from regarding space. It also explains how space is expanding and can also contract, and Andromeda etc.

 

An interesting thought occurred to me, ref the expanding space and red shift. What happens to a photon of light in contracting space and blue shift, if space shrinks to zero locally around the photon what does it do DOH

 

I am travelling for a few days now and will not have access to internet for a while.

 

I have loads of new stuff to read and some good pointers.

 

The Hawkings book I initially disagreed with is so out of date, it is practically worthless.

 

Thank you all, for your answers.

 

Andy

 

Additional edit

 

Some questions have sprung into my head, as a result of the attached document.

 

If space has no edge, is it infinite, how can it expand beyond a none existent edge ?

 

Space can move, change shape, expand, shrink, be warped, or stretched. Light that is redshifted appears at lower frequency, disapears or ceases to exist, or be measurable.  

 

If space can expand on a cosmic scale, can it also contract around a wave with sufficient energy and make it into a particle. Using the blackhole concept, space is shrunk down to nothing. Would a photon become so blue shifted it becomes a particle?

 

Electrons are particles that have no known shape, but have polarity and spin, which "might" infer they are a dipole and have a shape and dimensions, similar to a donut. 

 

Can radiation be viewed as an expansion of space from a particle with no dimensions as a result of the particle being destoyed? 

 

Looking at the double slit experiment, and wave particle duality, is it all just contractions and expansion of space. (Vibrations of space(aether) or strings) With space oscillating a wave or particle into and out of existence. A particle occupying a zero space trapped in a vortex a wave occupying a wavelength and free to move in a straight line.

 

Cosmic Background radiation is not red shifted as far as I am aware. Could Cosmic Background Radiation be the result of a continuing creation and expansion of space, and not a big bang. Contracted space, decaying into expanded space.

 

If space can be warped, twisted, made to vibrate, move around in the form of waves and particles(vortices). Is gravity not just another movement or disturbance in space as a result of the movement of all the different types of waves made of space. The disturbance being greater nearer to the particle or waves causing the disturbance. 

 

Can we create a similiar disturbance artificially in the direction we wish to move and create a gravity driven propulsion system.

Attached Files


Edited by Handy andy, Yesterday, 02:51 PM.

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#87 Strange

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Posted Yesterday, 07:06 PM

If space has no edge, is it infinite, how can it expand beyond a none existent edge ?

 

 

The universe may be infinite, in which case it has no edge.

 

Or it may be "finite but unbounded" meaning it has a topology that has no edges. The best analogy is to consider the 2D surface of the Earth (just the surface). This has a finite area but there is no edge - you can travel as far as you like in any direction (you may end up where you started from). That area could increase (expand) without needing an edge.

 

 

 

Cosmic Background radiation is not red shifted as far as I am aware. 

 

It is. It is the redshifted radiation from a plasma that was at about 3,000 degrees. 


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