Affirmative Action

[Aardvark]

Do you feel put out because things are a little tougher on you now? Perhaps you will learn how discrimination feels and never practice it on others.

 

That kind of attitude won't cause people not to practice discrimination. Quite the opposite, that kind of attitude will fuel racial hatred and resentment.

[syntax252]

My point exactly. The two cancel each other out. The dilemma is false and cannot be used in this debate. rolleyes

 

Oh nonsense! Here you would have us believe that one could not prove it was to a person'r disadvantage to be discriminated against. Utter tripe.

 

Why should it be suspended when it hasn't been allowed to reach it's potential? Should Martin Luther King Jr's work have been suspended after his death? This is where I do trust the system. When the employment marketplace has a fairer amount of ethnic and gender diversity at all levels, when the playing field is level and merit can finally be the true gauge, affirmative action programs will be dismantled. It will happen because the white male workers will have spent enough time feeling what it is like. They will scream like the women and people of color screamed, and they will be heard.

 

Part of my objection to dismantling the programs too soon is that all these objections of reverse discrimination are coming up. Of course white males are going to start bitching as soon as they can. We may need to go a little overboard to make sure the system is fair, the opportunities are even. Imo, the more empathy we can have for the plight of those who have been discriminated against for so long, the better our chances it won't happen again.

 

There will always be those who take negative advantage of any program, those who will not rise up on their own if given a leg up. Let's not judge the whole system by those few. And let's not make the mistake of saying that because merit is the logical system that it is also the best system in a world where discrimination flies in the face of logic.

 

Well I am sure that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would find this sort of rhetoric useful to their carreers, it is not at all useful in establishing whether it is justifiale in a place like the USA to use racism as a method of achieving some nebulous state of "parity" for blacks in America.

[syntax252]

I voted yes' date=' but I think affirmitive action should be geared toward the economically disadvantaged, not by race. A middle class black person doesn't need any help compared to a poor white person, IMO.

 

We do have an interest in improving our 'weakest link', which are the poor.[/quote']

 

I would agree to that. But in a case of that kind, assuming that you are talking college admissions, the "action" taken by the state would be financial, and not to provide any special points on the entrance exam.

[syntax252]

Great point, john5746. Perhaps that's also why Bill Cosby is against it. I'm so glad that, as a privileged white male, you're all for equality. The point here is that you and I have had an easier walk than others. Affirmative action puts a bit more of a hill ahead of us to climb, but doesn't prevent us from climbing. It is a temporary compensation for a temporary inequality. [u'] Do you feel put out because things are a little tougher on you now? Perhaps you will learn how discrimination feels and never practice it on others.[/u]

 

Don't you see the implied malice in a statement like that?

 

It literally reeks with the stagnant odor of revenge. That is what this nonsense has come to represent and nothing more.

 

Will you not be satisfied until white people are forced to serve as slaves to blacks for 300 years?

 

The only people who actually need affirmative action in America are the Teddy Kennedys, the Jesse Jacksons and the Al sharptons. The rest of us lose, white and black alike.

[Phi for All]

anyone can do anything they want to.

Some day this may really be true.

 

what is the purpose of this "temporary inequality?" it is like the reparation money to the decendents of slaves.

No, it's not. Affirmative action programs quite simply level the playing field, imo. Perhaps I was hasty comparing you to me. You're still in high school, and have little experience in the job market. Discrimination is out there, at every level, and I think something extra needs to be done because the honor system doesn't work when racism or gender bias is factored in.

And you seem to assume that affirmative action is only used in favour of blacks against whites.

Actually, you are making that up. Just because I make reference to white males doesn't mean I assume affirmative action only favors blacks. I actually think gender problems are more prevalent out there in the job marketplace. I think we are definitely turning a corner on racial profiling when it comes to jobs. I also believe affirmative action programs are partially responsible.

Don't you see the implied malice in a statement like that?

 

It literally reeks with the stagnant odor of revenge. That is what this nonsense has come to represent and nothing more.

 

Will you not be satisfied until white people are forced to serve as slaves to blacks for 300 years?

I see that since you saw malice in the question where none was intended' date=' you are obviously the type who screams reverse descrimination first. I guess I will never be able to debate this issue with you when what I see as a social program for promoting equality is viewed by you as stinking [b']revenge[/b].

 

Oh, and what a nice straw man you chose to close with!

[syntax252]

.

I see that since you saw malice in the question where none was intended' date='[/b'] you are obviously the type who screams reverse descrimination first. I guess I will never be able to debate this issue with you when what I see as a social program for promoting equality is viewed by you as stinking revenge.

 

Oh, and what a nice straw man you chose to close with!

 

And you don't think that you at the very least are obligated to be honest about what you were trying to convey in your own post?

 

The good news is that more and more in America, people are wising up to these lies about the inability of the black man to compete on a level playing field and these nonsense ideas will wind up in the garbagew can where they belong.

[Douglas]

The good news is that more and more in America, people are wising up to these lies about the inability of the black man to compete on a level playing field and these nonsense ideas will wind up in the garbagew can where they belong.

Exactly. IMO, affirmative action is a degrading insult to the black community.

[ecoli]

That kind of attitude won't cause people not to practice discrimination. Quite the opposite, that kind of attitude will fuel racial hatred and resentment.

 

Exactly... You can't legislate morality. That's what affirmative action is trying to do.

[-Demosthenes-]

If a system allows a less qualified person into a job instead of a more qualified person, or a lower scoring student into a college instead of a higher scoring student then that system is flawed.

 

 

Affirmative Action assumes a couple things

1. All miorities are poor

2. Minorities can't take care of themselves

3. Minorites are somehow different from everyone else

[Hellbender]

I think, like a lot of things, affirmative action can be both good and bad. I am not tired of sitting on the fence, becasue I know everything is not so black and white. I does assume all minorities are poor, which is wrong, but since a lot of them happen to be, I guess its the best we can do.....

[ydoaPs]

phi, how does esnforced discrimination "level the playing field?" affermative action isn't getting rid of discrimination, it is fueling it.

 

edit: anyone CAN do anything they want to. most people are only limited by laziness. (excluding those physically unable to do certain things. they too can do almost anything, but they just are forced to try harder)

[TimeTraveler]

I voted yes' date=' but I think affirmitive action should be geared toward the economically disadvantaged, not by race. A middle class black person doesn't need any help compared to a poor white person, IMO.

 

We do have an interest in improving our 'weakest link', which are the poor.[/quote']

 

I voted yes, and I agree with this john5746 in this point.

[-Demosthenes-]

I actually think gender problems are more prevalent out there in the job marketplace.

Gender differences are a bit more of a problem, because males and females are actually different, whereas there is no real difference between the races.

I could probably never get a job as a nanny, I'm a guy. I don't know of any women that will be able to play pro football (American). I think this is where the real issue is, becuase I'm not sure how it should work, I don't know what is right. As opposed to the blatantly racist aspect of Affirmative Action.

[Phi for All]

phi, how does esnforced discrimination "level the playing field?" affermative action isn't getting rid of discrimination, it is fueling it.

It is the responsibility of every single person to end racism, gender bias and discrimination, imo. I'm in favor of integration wherever possible. I've seen many benefits in many areas when people are exposed to the ideas of diverse peoples. Over the years, discriminatory practices have led to over-representation by white males in our universities, in well-paid jobs, and in the various professions.

 

The civil rights movement and the women's liberation movement have both revealed the inequalities prevalent in US society. I know you view affirmative action as discriminatory to white males, but remedial action is needed where the situation cannot correct itself on its own. Affirmative action levels the playing field by creating resources for women and people of color so they will have proportional opportunities in the job market so that merit can then truly be observed. Affirmative action only fuels discrimination and gender bias in your mind if that's the way you choose to view it.

[budullewraagh]

i support class based affirmative action

[Pangloss]

Do you support quotas?

[-Demosthenes-]

...

I know you view affirmative action as discriminatory to white males' date=' but remedial action is needed where the situation cannot correct itself on its own. Affirmative action levels the playing field by creating resources for women and people of color so they will have proportional opportunities in the job market so that merit can then truly be observed. Affirmative action only fuels discrimination and gender bias in [i']your[/i] mind if that's the way you choose to view it.

Racism is using a person's race to judge them. Why should it matter, or why is it nessicarily related to class, if someone has a different amount of melanin in their skin cells?

[ydoaPs]

it isn't just how i view it. it is racism. racism under any circumstance is unethical.

[syntax252]

It is the responsibility of every single person to end racism, gender bias and discrimination, imo.

 

And then.....

 

I know you view affirmative action as discriminatory to white males, but remedial action is needed where the situation cannot correct itself on its own. .

 

You are contradicting yourself.

[In My Memory]

I would only support affirmative action programs if it can be shown that there is some level of active discrimination (whether conscious or unconscious) against certain groups being practiced by businesses or schools. The most persuasive argument I can find against affirmative action is that its unnecessary, such as if it hasnt been shown that any groups are being actively discrimated against.

 

However, for the most part, some of the arguments against affirmative action arent very persuasive, such as the one that keeps coming up that affirmative action is nothing more than racism. The reason why the racism of 50 years ago was bad was the due to the way it caused people to suffer and become victimized, and how it was fueled by intolerance and bigotry to exclude certain groups from the full rights of all citizens - I dont really think the reasons why racism was bad really carry over to affirmative action.

 

I thinks only the fact that some types of affirmative action distinguish between racial groups is where the similiarities between affirmative action and racism really begin (and end).

[ku]

Like most people here I am against affirmative action. It would be understandable if the poor were helped out as opposed to people of a certain race. However, the issue is not as black-and-white as that. The fact is that society is racist and sexist, so this is essentially an issue of justice in the procedure versus justice as an outcome.

 

As the first poster said, affirmative action not only helps blacks but also other diadvantaged groups. In my university there is AA for students from rural areas as well as AA for females in engineering.

 

There is also the issue of non-black non-white ethnic groups as well. Asians are over-represented in universities, so God knows what would happen if a racial quota system were established. Asians only make up three percent of the American population.

[-Demosthenes-]

The civil rights movement prohibited any discrimination based on race, gender, or age. Its already in legislation, we don't need anymore.

[Coral Rhedd]

Exactly. IMO, affirmative action is a degrading insult to the black community.

 

How sensitive of you to notice this and point it out. But I think I have a solution. Since they are the ones being degraded, why don't we let just them vote on affirmative action issues pertaining to being black.

 

That way we can solve that insult thing forever.

[Phi for All]

racism under any circumstance is unethical.

To me, the circumstances leading to a need for affirmative action is like catching someone cheating at a race. In this instance you can't disqualify the runner, so you penalize him. It would be unethical to just say, sorry, we won't cheat from here on in, just allow us this lead we've got and we'll call it even. I've tried to explain it several ways. Are you going to continue using the same argument?

You are contradicting yourself.

No, because I don't view it the way you do, hence the reason I call affirmative action remedial. It rectifies a bad situation.

[ydoaPs]

that may have been your most racist post yet.