mustang292 Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Why can we not use the direction of other galaxies that are moving away from us and the speed they are traveling to triangulate the origin of the Big Bang. I mean all galaxies are most likely to still be moving away from the Big Bang which means if we can identify only a few galaxies to our so called Northe south east and west, and the speed and direction from us and us from them, We should be able to determine which direction all of them are going and triangulate the origin of the Big Bang. Right? We need to clone Einstein. \ . . . . / \ . . . / \ . . / \ . . / \ . . / \ . / \ . / \ / Bang! P.S. I think we are all living in the time that we will finally find definitive life somewhere other than earth. Even if it's only bacteria. Let's hope for something more interesting though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevermore Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 It's much simpler to look at the fact that the big bang occored at one point, and from this fact it can be inferred that the center of the universe. This is where your logic comes into play; the opposite direction of the tragectory of any galaxy, star, or other celestial body starting from the point of said celestial body will take you to the center of the universe. So, in layman's terms, if you get next to a star, and go the opposite direction, you'll eventually find yourself at the center of the universe. P.S. Bacterial worms have already been found on mars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reverse Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 one small problem. every bit if matter is supposed to be moving away from every other bit of matter. not moving away from a central point. well that's what the smart little kid next door says. he's usually right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ophiolite Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Why can we not use the direction of other galaxies that are moving away from us and the speed they are traveling to triangulate the origin of the Big Bang. Because the Big Bang happened everywhere. There is no centre to the Universe, no preferred location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Because the Big Bang happened everywhere. There is no centre to the Universe, no preferred location. Why the Universe cannot have a center? Is it flat or is it round, it must have a geometrical center. Big Bang couldn't happend everywhere, couse there was no "everywhere", no space. Space came out of the BB. I dont think we can expalin the BB only in 4D, with geometry we know, it needs something more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ophiolite Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Why the Universe cannot have a center?Perhaps it could have a centre, but the fact is it does not have a centre.is it flat or is it round,It's Universe shaped.it must have a geometrical center.No. That is not necessary.Big Bang couldn't happend everywhere, Yes it did.Refer to the link posted by Bettina in another thread that addresses this far better than I ever could. http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=1&articleID=0009F0CA-C523-1213-852383414B7F0147 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Hey, geometrical center is not the place from which the BB started. No matter what the Univ. looks like, it must have a center. Sphere got a center, banana got a center, so why univ can't have it? Think of the U as a baloon. Let's say that the space is only the rubber. Little beeings living on the rubber can say that theres no center of the Rubber Univers. But You can see that it is beyond the rubber, inside the baloon. The same thing is with our non-rubber Universe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ophiolite Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Syd, all the things you mentioned have centres because they exist within the confines of the Universe. The Universe does not exist within anything. It is either infinite, and so without a centre, or finite, but doubled back on itself, and so without a centre. Just as you can stretch a balloon to far, you can stretch the analogy to far. I am an ignorant peasant when it comes to cosmology. I scarcely know a differential from an intgral. But everything I have read on the big bang seems to agree: no centre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Hey, geometrical center is not the place from which the BB started. No matter what the Univ. looks like, it must have a center. Sphere got a center, banana got a center, so why univ can't have it? Think of the U as a baloon. Let's say that the space is only the rubber. Little beeings living on the rubber can say that theres no center of the Rubber Univers. But You can see that it is beyond the rubber, inside the baloon. The same thing is with our non-rubber Universe If the being are two dimensional, and can only see the surface, what then? Does it have a center? If the universe is infinite, how do you define the center? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Ok, i guess You're right. But theres one more thought i have left. What if theres 1000 diffrent Universes, all in a infinite space/or sth like that/, just like a bubles in the air. Observer placed in that 'space', lets call him God, can see them all/all univ./. He see what shape they are, so he can tell where center of single Universe is. Without full knowledge about Universe and things beyond it, we cannot be certain about anything. we can only guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 If the being are two dimensional' date=' and can only see the surface, what then? Does it have a center? If the universe is infinite, how do you define the center?[/quote'] If it really is infinite, every point can be the center Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.C.MacSwell Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 If it really is infinite, every point can be the center Also true if it's finite unbounded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reverse Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 the problem is a thing called virtual point horizon I think. there may be a centre, but because of the limitations on the speed of light, we get a kind of virtual horizon. it's an optical effect that makes the earth appear to be the centre of the universe. it's a point of view type trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nasza Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Back to the original question... I dont believe that you can triaculate the location of the big bang from the movement of other galaxies due to gravity. Let me explain, At the start of the universe it was a large swirling mass of matter. Due to propability a larger amount of matter acumulated in one area of the growing universe than the other. Over time, as the galaxies where formed from this swirling mass, they did not all travel in uniform rays from the origin of the universe. Other large accumulations of matter, another galaxy, would push and pull the galaxy off the ray it was travelling along. Over the billions of years the universe changed from all matter moving in the direction of a egg dropped of a sky scraper to a swirling mass of matter. The result is chaoic, and we can not predict whether the big bang was a uniform explosion, or only one explosion for that matter, or whether there is the same amount of matter on this side of the universe than the other side of the universe. I'm no expert on this matter, just a senior high school physics student, and i believe the thought would have crossed Clyde Tomhaugh, William Herschel or James Elliot's mind as they where cementing their names in history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Back to the original question... I dont believe that you can triaculate the location of the big bang from the movement of other galaxies due to gravity. Let me explain' date=' At the start of the universe it was a large swirling mass of matter. Due to propability a larger amount of matter acumulated in one area of the growing universe than the other. Over time, as the galaxies where formed from this swirling mass, they did not all travel in uniform rays from the origin of the universe. Other large accumulations of matter, another galaxy, would push and pull the galaxy off the ray it was travelling along. Over the billions of years the universe changed from all matter moving in the direction of a egg dropped of a sky scraper to a swirling mass of matter. The result is chaoic, and we can not predict whether the big bang was a uniform explosion, or only one explosion for that matter, or whether there is the same amount of matter on this side of the universe than the other side of the universe. I'm no expert on this matter, just a senior high school physics student, and i believe the thought would have crossed Clyde Tomhaugh, William Herschel or James Elliot's mind as they where cementing their names in history.[/quote'] Chaos isn't the reason. There is no center, as has been explained. Except for local motions that you describe, any point is going to see the rest of the universe expanding from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Just try to do the calculations. The only data you will get for the motions of far galaxies (outside the local group) is the redshift. Transversal motion is not apparent so the apparent center will be our local group. If we where in an other far far away galaxy X we would find the center of the expansion at X. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reverse Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Back to the original question... I dont believe that you can triaculate the location of the big bang from the movement of other galaxies due to gravity. Let me explain' date=' At the start of the universe it was a large swirling mass of matter. Due to propability a larger amount of matter acumulated in one area of the growing universe than the other. Over time, as the galaxies where formed from this swirling mass, they did not all travel in uniform rays from the origin of the universe. Other large accumulations of matter, another galaxy, would push and pull the galaxy off the ray it was travelling along. Over the billions of years the universe changed from all matter moving in the direction of a egg dropped of a sky scraper to a swirling mass of matter. The result is chaoic, and we can not predict whether the big bang was a uniform explosion, or only one explosion for that matter, or whether there is the same amount of matter on this side of the universe than the other side of the universe. I'm no expert on this matter, just a senior high school physics student, and i believe the thought would have crossed Clyde Tomhaugh, William Herschel or James Elliot's mind as they where cementing their names in history.[/quote'] This is a pretty bad analogy but it might help. Say you were in a gymnasium with a meter ruler. You measured the distance from your belly to your head. 1/2 a meter. Belly to your foot 1 meter, Belly to hip ¼ Meter. Belly to south wall 1 meter Belly to west wall 1 meter Belly to north wall 1 meter Belly to east wall 1 meter Belly door 1 meter Belly roof 1 meter No matter where you are in the gymnasium you will always come up with the data that you are at the centre because of the limitations of the measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny5 Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 The universe has a center of mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 The universe has a center of mass. No, I don't think it does. The point that you pick as the center is arbitrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadmus Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 No, I don't think it does.A valid opinion, although I disagree.The point that you pick as the center is arbitrary.I think that what began in the big bang will end in a big crunch. The site of the big bang is the center of mass, such that the remaining mass will return to the center in the big crunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny5 Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 No, I don't think it does. The point that you pick as the center is arbitrary. No swansont, that is totally false, although your responses in every other instance have been impeccable, here you have made some kind of error. I think that your response is facetious, but if not... Without doing much thinking, I would just say that in order for the universe to not have a center of mass, the total amount of matter would have to be infinite. Many times I have asked whether or not the universe has a center of mass, and every time I get totally unsatisfactory answers. A related question is, is it knowable whether or not the universe has a center of mass, and if it is knowable, is the knowledge necessarily deducible, or must that knowledge come from statements whose truth value can only be known through experiment. I would say the latter, though I don't off hand know how to design an experiment to locate the center of mass. But I am convinced that the total amount of matter is finite, whence I assert that the universe does have a center of mass. Locating it is empirical. If you can use a torsion balance to figure out that there is a mountain on your left, I don't see why in principle you cannot use one to determine the direction the center of the universe is, in relation to your current position in the universe. In some thread I saw someone use the phrase, "preferred location in space." That is what I would call the center of mass of the universe. As for anyone who asserts otherwise, how would you prove that the universe doesn't have a center of mass. Miles of equations would not provide a convincing deductive argument. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Consider the surface of a sphere. 2-D only. Where is the center of that surface? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadmus Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Consider the surface of a sphere. 2-D only. Where is the center of that surface? 1. How is this relevant? 2. The surface of a sphere is not an ideal example of a 2D surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macroscopic Posted March 15, 2005 Share Posted March 15, 2005 Originally posted by NevermoreP.S. Bacterial worms have already been found on mars. Where did you hear that? Could you give a link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macroscopic Posted March 15, 2005 Share Posted March 15, 2005 Originally posted by Johnny5The universe has a center of mass. Only things that are finite can have a center; for something to have a center, it has to have an end. Do you think that the universe is not infinite? I don't see how that could work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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