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Ethics of Abortion


chilled_fluorine
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Mitt Romney would throw you out the plane's window if he heard you talking like that! Well, after he took away your birth control pills and demanded you raise every child begat from your promiscuous ways, without government help, of course. Maybe you can borrow the money from your parents.

 

 

Are we still thinking suffrage, equal pay for equal work and the right to personal bodily freedoms are liberal stances, really?

 

You post mostly about chemistry subjects. The fact that girls couldn't possibly be interested in chemistry will come as a shock to hypervalent_iodine.

 

Pray tell us, from a conservative, openable jet window perspective, how do girls talk? <bats eyelashes innocently>

I'm very supportive of woman's rights, and I'm okay with birth control. I do not think that abortion is a valid means of birth control. People justify abortion by saying fetuses aren't human. Well, Hitler justified the killing of millions of innocent people by calling them less than human. What makes abortion better than that?

I'm not saying girls can't be interested in chemistry. Far from it. Is making charcoal, in your opinion, a post a man or a woman would most likely have started? I couldn't tell you how a girl talks, unless it's one of the younger generation that says "like" after every other word. But I can definitely tell. I knew hyper was a girl, before someone told me.

 

 

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Mitt Romney would throw you out the plane's window if he heard you talking like that! Well, after he took away your birth control pills and demanded you raise every child begat from your promiscuous ways, without government help of course. Maybe you can borrow the money from your parents.

 

Unless I experience legitimate rape, you mean. That would make my body reject the pregnancy automagically anyways so I won't have the luxury of begatting said child.

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I'm very supportive of woman's rights, and I'm okay with birth control. I do not think that abortion is a valid means of birth control. People justify abortion by saying fetuses aren't human. Well, Hitler justified the killing of millions of innocent people by calling them less than human. What makes abortion better than that?

I'm not saying girls can't be interested in chemistry. Far from it. Is making charcoal, in your opinion, a post a man or a woman would most likely have started? I couldn't tell you how a girl talks, unless it's one of the younger generation that says "like" after every other word. But I can definitely tell. I knew hyper was a girl, before someone told me.

 

You don't think abortion is a valid birth control..... so do women. If you really think women just go and pop into a clinic to have an intrusive procedure done by inserting sharp tools into their vaginas and scraping the inside walls of their uterus as a form of birth control, then this argument is not just a strawman (which it is) but you are also quite condescendingly uninformed of what is involved in this procedure, and how it affects the WOMEN.

 

Funny that you start this with how you're supportive of women's rights, but seem to think women would prefer doing the occasional abortion instead of taking a pill or asking you lot of men to wear a condom.

 

Smart lot, we are.

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Unless I experience legitimate rape, you mean. That would make my body reject the pregnancy automagically anyways so I won't have the luxury of begatting said child.

 

Legitimate rape is the one time I find abortion acceptable. One incredibly ignorant person said that. Definitely the worst my party has to offer.

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People justify abortion by saying fetuses aren't human. Well, Hitler justified the killing of millions of innocent people by calling them less than human. What makes abortion better than that?

Wow, dude, I think you broke the record on Godwin's law. CONGRATS!

 

So, obviously you need to brush up on your fallacies. First, "People" don't say fetuses aren't human; scientific evidence has trouble separating the first stages of fetus development from a cyst. And since "people" don't consider cysts "human", the argument is a valid one. Much more so than that of the nazis, thankyouverymuch.

 

I'm not saying girls can't be interested in chemistry. Far from it. Is making charcoal, in your opinion, a post a man or a woman would most likely have started? I couldn't tell you how a girl talks, unless it's one of the younger generation that says "like" after every other word. But I can definitely tell. I knew hyper was a girl, before someone told me.

 

I'm trying to decide whether or not I should just let you continue digging this misogynistic hole you're in, or if I point out the amazingly enormous chunk of irony in all of this and save you the trouble.

 

 

Legitimate rape is the one time I find abortion acceptable. One incredibly ignorant person said that. Definitely the worst my party has to offer.

 

Good of you, dear man, to allow the women who were legitimately raped not to suffer longer. Of course, if the woman was "just" raped, she should shut her mouth and bear the fruit of the wonderful event. It is her privilege.

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Legitimate rape is the one time I find abortion acceptable.

Because "life begins at conception" would be so simple to deal with from a legal standpoint, counselor? After you patent openable jet windows, maybe you should switch to prosecuting all those women who miscarry at the gym during their first trimester.

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You don't think abortion is a valid birth control..... so do women. If you really think women just go and pop into a clinic to have an intrusive procedure done by inserting sharp tools into their vaginas and scraping the inside walls of their uterus as a form of birth control, then this argument is not just a strawman (which it is) but you are also quite condescendingly uninformed of what is involved in this procedure, and how it affects the WOMEN.

 

Funny that you start this with how you're supportive of women's rights, but seem to think women would prefer doing the occasional abortion instead of taking a pill or asking you lot of men to wear a condom.

 

Smart lot, we are.

 

I know that women do not want to have abortions. I do not post strawmans. I know what happens in an abortion. Some women, however, refuse to be responsible with their bodies, then do not want to pay the price later, at the expense of another's life.

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I know that women do not want to have abortions. I do not post strawmans. I know what happens in an abortion. Some women, however, refuse to be responsible with their bodies, then do not want to pay the price later, at the expense of another's life.

 

By saying that you don't want abortions to be used as birth control, you are suggesting they are used as birth control, which is a false statement (or at the very least requires substantiation), and you seem to do this for the sake of arguing against abortions, even though that is a false statement.

 

That, by definition, is a strawman argument.

 

And by saying that some women refuse to be responsible with their bodies, you again suggest this is the cause for abortions, which is not the case, and again create a strawman.

 

 

 

Look, I am not for "happy happy abortion opportunities"; I think there should be a certain medical intervention overseeing whether or not the woman should proceed with an abortion while considering both psychological and medical reasons for it. And education should accompany this from a young age, so women (AND MEN) are aware of risks, and methods of prevention, and are therefore ABLE to be responsible.

 

So, a woman tha already had an abortion might have higher risks in having a second, or a woman that doesn't care about her body at all might have psychological issues, etc etc. A doctor (medical and psychological) can help determine the status of UNIQUE situations like the ones you keep trying to raise as if they're the "norm".

 

They're not the norm. Show me evidence that large percentage of women feel so callous about abortions that they use it as if it's normal form of birth control, and we might have a conversation here. Otherwise, please stop making silly claims just so you can have an easier time arguing your side.

 

Finally, dear sir, the "responsibility" for becoming pregnant is JOINT between both man and woman, and accidents do happen; condoms rip, the pill sometimes doesn't work right (especially if accidentally taken while on other medicines) etc etc. Not every abortion is done out of being irresponsible, and not all women are irresponsible idiots when it comes to their own bodies.

 

Unlike some people's apparent thinking, women usually do not require the supervision of men to live properly.

 

~mooey

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Wow, dude, I think you broke the record on Godwin's law. CONGRATS!

 

So, obviously you need to brush up on your fallacies. First, "People" don't say fetuses aren't human; scientific evidence has trouble separating the first stages of fetus development from a cyst. And since "people" don't consider cysts "human", the argument is a valid one. Much more so than that of the nazis, thankyouverymuch.

 

 

 

I'm trying to decide whether or not I should just let you continue digging this misogynistic hole you're in, or if I point out the amazingly enormous chunk of irony in all of this and save you the trouble.

 

 

 

 

Good of you, dear man, to allow the women who were legitimately raped not to suffer longer. Of course, if the woman was "just" raped, she should shut her mouth and bear the fruit of the wonderful event. It is her privilege.

 

We have different ideas about what life is. Life starts at conception, that is my belief. I don't believe any stage of fetus could be called a cyst. Life is life. I don't believe illegitimate rape exists. You were raped legitimately or not at all.

 

What percentage would you say is "some"?

 

A very small, yet existent one.

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We have different ideas about what life is. Life starts at conception, that is my belief. I don't believe any stage of fetus could be called a cyst. Life is life. I don't believe illegitimate rape exists. You were raped legitimately or not at all.

I don't quite understand, what is legitimate rape and what is "not at all"? As far as I know, rape is anything non-consensual. "Legitimate" seems to be unfitting in any sort of definition here. Do clarify.

 

 

 

 

We have different opinions on what women are, it seems, and how responsible they can be with their own bodies.

But what do I know, I'm just a woman; what would we women do with ourselves if men wouldn't have had the responsibility and sense to tell us what we should do with our bodies!

Why, we might have all gone off and gotten ourselves recklessly pregnant all the time, and then had the audacity to use this painful humiliating procedure as an afterthought birth control! You're just being responsible in trying to make sure we live properly.

 

Thank you.

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Life starts at conception, that is my belief.

So how do you deal with that within the justice system if it becomes law? You know it would be abused by husbands distraught over miscarriages.

 

I don't believe any stage of fetus could be called a cyst.

One of the early stages of the development is actually called the blastocyst. It's got potential, but it's not life that should be given the rights of a citizen.

 

A very small, yet existent one.

So we take away the option from everyone because there is a small yet existent percentage of abusers? Hey, we should do that with alcohol and gambling!

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A very small, yet existent one.

So... irrelevant? Great. Next claim.

 

 

Spot the differences:

 

"Some men use the gym to spot potential targets for rape. We should close all gyms!"

"What is the percentage of 'some' men?"

"Very small, yet existent."

.... Ah.

 

 

"Some people drive their car while intoxicated, and cause horrific accidents. We should ban driving!!!"

"What is the percentage of 'some' people?"

"Very small, yet existent."

... Ah.

 

 

"Some people use guns to rob or kill people. We should immediately ban all guns!!!!!!!!"

"What is the percentage of 'some' people?"

"Very small, yet existent."

... hmm.

 

 

Should I continue, or is the point clear?

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I don't quite understand, what is legitimate rape and what is "not at all"? As far as I know, rape is anything non-consensual. "Legitimate" seems to be unfitting in any sort of definition here. Do clarify.

 

 

 

 

We have different opinions on what women are, it seems, and how responsible they can be with their own bodies.

But what do I know, I'm just a woman; what would we women do with ourselves if men wouldn't have had the responsibility and sense to tell us what we should do with our bodies!

Why, we might have all gone off and gotten ourselves recklessly pregnant all the time, and then had the audacity to use this painful humiliating procedure as an afterthought birth control! You're just being responsible in trying to make sure we live properly.

 

Thank you.

Rape, of course, is non consensual. "Not at all" is consensual. There's nothing in between.Nowadays, on the rare occasion I stray into the city, I can hardly go anywhere without being attacked by young women and prostitutes, but this might just be because I am so gorgeous. I don't take advantage of them. I specifically avoid bars, but then, I don't drink anyways. The younger generation is different than my own. Maybe I am just thinking about the people in my area, but I found my post to be accurate. My question for you; Why don't you think I respect women?

 

 

 

So... irrelevant? Great. Next claim.

 

 

Spot the differences:

 

"Some men use the gym to spot potential targets for rape. We should close all gyms!"

"What is the percentage of 'some' men?"

"Very small, yet existent."

.... Ah.

 

 

"Some people drive their car while intoxicated, and cause horrific accidents. We should ban driving!!!"

"What is the percentage of 'some' people?"

"Very small, yet existent."

... Ah.

 

 

"Some people use guns to rob or kill people. We should immediately ban all guns!!!!!!!!"

"What is the percentage of 'some' people?"

"Very small, yet existent."

... hmm.

 

 

Should I continue, or is the point clear?

People shouldn't be allowed to have abortions just because they want to. You need to have a valid reason, such as rape. It's not irrelevant. Every life or life to be matters. Edited by chilled_fluorine
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You seem to now nitpick the points you want to answer and ignore specific points you don't, as well as make strawmen. This is getting pointless.

 

 

Oh, and yes, I'm sure you're the gorgeousest man ever. I'm so lucky there's a monitor in between us or I don't know if I could have stopped myself from switching sides.

 

Just in case I need to explain, this:

People shouldn't be allowed to have abortions just because they want to. You need to have a valid reason, such as rape. It's not irrelevant. Every life or life to be matters.

-- is something we've already covered, and showed it is an irrelevant strawman claim. SHOW ME a woman who WANTS to have an abortion. No woman wants to (or, at least, very very marginally few, if at all). They might decide they NEED to, but no one goes happily and merrily to have an abortion after lunch.

 

Yes? Goodie.

 

Do you have any other claims against abortion? It's getting to the point where *I* can make better points to your side than you do, and where's the fun in that.

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You seem to now nitpick the points you want to answer and ignore specific points you don't, as well as make strawmen. This is getting pointless.

 

 

Oh, and yes, I'm sure you're the gorgeousest man ever. I'm so lucky there's a monitor in between us or I don't know if I could have stopped myself from switching sides. You'd be surprised...

 

Which of your questions did I not answer?

 

You seem to now nitpick the points you want to answer and ignore specific points you don't, as well as make strawmen. This is getting pointless.

 

 

Oh, and yes, I'm sure you're the gorgeousest man ever. I'm so lucky there's a monitor in between us or I don't know if I could have stopped myself from switching sides.

 

Just in case I need to explain, this:

 

-- is something we've already covered, and showed it is an irrelevant strawman claim. SHOW ME a woman who WANTS to have an abortion. No woman wants to (or, at least, very very marginally few, if at all). They might decide they NEED to, but no one goes happily and merrily to have an abortion after lunch.

 

Yes? Goodie.

 

Do you have any other claims against abortion? It's getting to the point where *I* can make better points to your side than you do, and where's the fun in that.

 

By "want", I meant that they think it would be in their best interest, and decide to do it. Who would actually "want" that? I'm so tired, I accidentally slipped back into my native language for a second. I really should get to bed. Somehow, I know it won't happen. laugh.gif

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Which of your questions did I not answer?

 

Read up. The point about women merrily going around to get abortions is a strawman, and quite honestly it's a seriously offensive one. How many women do you think WANT to get an abortion? Do you seriously think this is part of a pregnancy prevention plan a woman sits and considers? Do you imagine women scheduling an abortion and then a meeting at a pub for drinks?

The fact is, abortion is a humiliating painful procedure very very few women want (if at ALL). The question most of the time is whether the woman NEEDS an abortion, not whether she merrily wants one.

 

And if that's your condition, then how about you go and ask the people who actually WORK around women who have abortions and see what the leading reasons are? Did you ever research this, or are you just spitting out what you were fed by other people in "authority" since any abortion is sinful?

 

Most reasons for abortion are medical. Would you prevent a woman from having an abortion on a pregnancy that might be extremely dangerous for her health and/or the baby's? Really?

 

But fine, let's move to other questions and considerations. If live begins at conception, what happens to twins? Do their soul splits (they don't start off at twins, they start off as 1 fetus and then split after a couple of weeks) -- are we lacking souls or does it miraculously manifest itself when the split happens?

 

Would you sue women who have natural abortions for manslaughter?

 

And if you're for using birth control, how does that fit with thinking life starts at conception? Pills or chemical birth control literally "kills" the eggs. Is that not murder?

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Which of your questions did I not answer?

 

 

 

By "want", I meant that they think it would be in their best interest, and decide to do it. Who would actually "want" that? I'm so tired, I accidentally slipped back into my native language for a second. I really should get to bed. Somehow, I know it won't happen. laugh.gif

Ah. I'm going to bed. Tired to type.

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Some info:

 

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

 

• Eighteen percent of U.S. women obtaining abortions are teenagers; those aged 15–17 obtain 6% of all abortions, teens aged 18–19 obtain 11%, and teens younger than age 15 obtain 0.4%.[6]

• Women in their 20s account for more than half of all abortions; women aged 20–24 obtain 33% of all abortions, and women aged 25–29 obtain 24%.[6]

 

• The reasons women give for having an abortion underscore their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.[7]

 

• Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users report having used their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users report correct use.[8]

• Forty-six percent of women who have abortions had not used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Of these women, 33% had perceived themselves to be at low risk for pregnancy, 32% had had concerns about contraceptive methods, 26% had had unexpected sex and 1% had been forced to have sex.[8]

 

• Medication abortion accounted for 17% of all nonhospital abortions, and about one-quarter of abortions before nine weeks’ gestation, in 2008.[2]

 

• The risk of abortion complications is minimal: Fewer than 0.3% of abortion patients experience a complication that requires hospitalization.[11]

• In repeated studies since the early 1980s, leading experts have concluded that abortion does not pose a hazard to women’s mental health.[13]

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We have different ideas about what life is. Life starts at conception, that is my belief. I don't believe any stage of fetus could be called a cyst. Life is life. I don't believe illegitimate rape exists. You were raped legitimately or not at all.

 

People shouldn't be allowed to have abortions just because they want to. You need to have a valid reason, such as rape. It's not irrelevant. Every life or life to be matters.

I'm curious as to how you reconcile your two different stands. On the one hand, "life starts at conception" and "every life matters". Yet you also state that with a valid reason, snuffing out life is just fine.

 

If life matters, how can you justify ending it just because of the circumstances of its origin? By what reasoning do you put the rights of the woman ahead of those of the embryo?

 

Who gets to determine what constitutes a "valid reason" for ending life? It sounds as if you think that your opinion of 'valid reason' is more important than that of the opinion of the pregnant woman. If you are going to open the door to allowing any abortions at all, then you are not really in a position to say your valid reasons are better than the woman's valid reasons.

 

It is very paternalistic of you to decide that one circumstance (having a baby after rape) is too much for the woman to bear, yet another circumstance is not.

 

It is also naive to think all pregnancies resulting from rape are more of a burden to women than all pregnancies in some other circumstances.

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I'm just wondering if anyone out there thinks that returning to the days where abortion was illegal won't mean a return to illegal abortions.

Perhaps I should buy shares in backstreetabortionists dot com just in case these folk get in.

 

Also, does any of you have any information about this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect

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Some info:

 

http://www.guttmache...d_abortion.html

 

• Eighteen percent of U.S. women obtaining abortions are teenagers; those aged 15–17 obtain 6% of all abortions, teens aged 18–19 obtain 11%, and teens younger than age 15 obtain 0.4%.[6]

• Women in their 20s account for more than half of all abortions; women aged 20–24 obtain 33% of all abortions, and women aged 25–29 obtain 24%.[6]

 

• The reasons women give for having an abortion underscore their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.[7]

 

• Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users report having used their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users report correct use.[8]

• Forty-six percent of women who have abortions had not used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Of these women, 33% had perceived themselves to be at low risk for pregnancy, 32% had had concerns about contraceptive methods, 26% had had unexpected sex and 1% had been forced to have sex.[8]

 

• Medication abortion accounted for 17% of all nonhospital abortions, and about one-quarter of abortions before nine weeks' gestation, in 2008.[2]

 

• The risk of abortion complications is minimal: Fewer than 0.3% of abortion patients experience a complication that requires hospitalization.[11]

• In repeated studies since the early 1980s, leading experts have concluded that abortion does not pose a hazard to women's mental health.[13]

 

You know, when people are talking about something controversial, most people add their own strongly biased ideas. How about some strongly biased ideas? Facts are fun, but arguments more so. There is no one right or wrong answer.

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You know, when people are talking about something controversial, most people add their own strongly biased ideas. How about some strongly biased ideas? Facts are fun, but arguments more so. There is no one right or wrong answer.

We generally prefer more substance in our discussions.

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We generally prefer more substance in our discussions.

 

Ooh, phi, you've reached 10,000 posts. Congrats. Well, the facts he gave were sort of random, and didn't really express one idea or another. The post is titled ethics of abortion, not factual and opinionless discussion of abortion. No one goes into the politics section not expecting bickering and strongly biased opinions. Nowadays, politics involve very few facts, so I find it fitting. Factual discussion about factual things, biased discussion of biased things.

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