So I split my face open on a pier

[bascule]

WARNING: Do not click this link. Seriously, do not click it. Okay, you can click it, but do NOT play the video. If you play the video, seriously, I warned you. You take all responsibility at that point. DO NOT PLAY THE VIDEO. It will disturb you. Seriously. Don't play the video. Don't do it. In fact do not bother to click the link. It will screw with you. Seriously. Don't do it.

 

http://robert-lindsay.blogspot.com/2009/10/face-split-diving-accident-video.html

 

Okay, so here's the story. You're chilling out, diving off a building into the ocean. You do this every weekend. It impresses the members of the opposite gender, your amazing diving abilities. It's a little bit unsafe, but hey, you're seasoned, you know what you're doing.

 

Then, one day, you're trying to dive off, slip, and hit your face on the pier. OW! OW OW OW OW OW OW OW I'M BLEEDING OH I'M GOING TO DIE...

 

Then what?

 

Well, I guess, if you live in Lebanon, you die.

 

If you live in the US, you probably live, horribly disfigured, and $500,000 in debt for medical care your insurance didn't bother to cover. Oh, and now comes the outpatient rehabilitation. Oi.

 

Which is better?

[CaptainPanic]

I didn't click the link - but I also fail to see the point you're trying to make.

 

Are we discussing the differences between Lebanon and the USA? Or are we discussing medical care and debts resulting from lack of insurance? Or are we discussing the success of the Darwin Awards?

[JillSwift]

I did click the link.

I watched the video.

 

Poor kid. I've seen a few nasty skull injuries before, but nothing like that.

 

I've read the story. It's a bit confusing. I gather the kid died of his injuries, but no precise established cause can be found among the mess of hearsay.

 

So... Are you asking which I'd prefer - Death or debt?

 

I pick debt.

 

Though given the depth of the fracture between orbits, I'm not 100% sure he'd have survived even if he did that 10 meters from the Mayo Clinic during a cranial surgeon/neurophysiology conference.

[john5746]

Which is better?

 

If this is real, I hope he died within an hour. I think if it were me, I would rather die, but then again I'm not 16.

[Fuzzwood]

But... but... (well sorry for details), his entire face was split vertical so you had 2 halves, brains were exposed and everything (not all over the place, still in 1 piece). How the hell can anyone survive that?

[Phi for All]

I didn't watch the video. I'm assuming bascule is asking whether it's better to use the medical/insurance system resources to rescue someone who was purposely and enthusiastically risking their life. Unfortunately, because of his age, I'd have to say that I'd vote to save him if possible. If an adult did something like that, I'd have to say forget him if there are others you could save with those resources.

 

If the poor kid was in the US, his insurance company would probably see it as a no gainer and dock him for the half mil, based on a pier-existing condition.

[JillSwift]

If the poor kid was in the US, his insurance company would probably see it as a no gainer and dock him for the half mil, based on a pier-existing condition.

D'oh!

[A Tripolation]

Wait, what's the point of this thread?

And why shouldn't I watch the video? Is bascule screwing with everyone?

[Dudde]

No, he's not screwing with everyone, if you're squeamish in any way I would definitely suggest not watching.

[Syntho-sis]

Wow..That's pretty messed up..

 

From what I read he died two days later..

 

Lesson for all of us.. DON'T BE STUPID!

[Mr Skeptic]

What you are asking for, "which is better?" is a moral judgment, so it will depend on your values. From an economical view, we're almost certainly better off letting such people die since it would cost more to save him than he will be able to earn. From a personal responsibility view, what he did was his fault and so he should bear the cost. From a compassion view, everyone makes mistakes and we can help him anyways, and even if he can't pay. From a Social Darwinism view, he can't earn a Darwin Award if we save him.

 

Really there are lots of ways to go. In the US we go the compassion route, though he will probably have to pay what he can and declare bankruptcy (but some hospitals will not send a bill to someone who can't pay it).

[bascule]

Wait, what's the point of this thread?

 

The difference between being a normal, healthy person and horribly disfigured and on death's doorstep can be as little as one slip of the foot.

 

When that happens, how should it be handled? Does this guy deserved to be saved, or should he get a Darwin award? Should he only be saved if he can foot the bill?

[Syntho-sis]

The difference between being a normal, healthy person and horribly disfigured and on death's doorstep can be as little as one slip of the foot.

 

When that happens, how should it be handled? Does this guy deserved to be saved, or should he get a Darwin award? Should he only be saved if he can foot the bill?

 

IMO- Of course he 'deserves' to be saved, if it is within our reach. Personally I'd rather have a messed up face and be blind the rest of my life than be dead.

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I'm seriously not finding the humor in the Darwin Awards gimmick...

[JillSwift]

The difference between being a normal, healthy person and horribly disfigured and on death's doorstep can be as little as one slip of the foot.

 

When that happens, how should it be handled? Does this guy deserved to be saved, or should he get a Darwin award? Should he only be saved if he can foot the bill?

Oh, I'm on the side of "save him if we can" witout regard to his ability to pay, an without regard to the fact that it was all his choices that led to the grievous and fatal injury.

 

I come to that conclusion because I know that all humans, no matter how bright or how dim, has the potential to make hideous mistakes with high costs. We've advanced enough as a society that such mistakes need not cost us our lives - though it may cost us in many other ways. In the end, a live person deep in debt and horribly disfigured brings more to society than a corpse.

 

Perhaps It's best summed up: Dead people have learned no lesson and tell no one their sad tale.

 

 

 

I'm seriously not finding the humor in the Darwin Awards gimmick...

I find the Darwin Awards not to be humor, but a series of astonishing, sad and sometimes terrifying tales of what happens when someone fails to think things through, just once.

Edited November 4, 2009 by JillSwift
Details

[padren]

The difference between being a normal, healthy person and horribly disfigured and on death's doorstep can be as little as one slip of the foot.

 

When that happens, how should it be handled? Does this guy deserved to be saved, or should he get a Darwin award? Should he only be saved if he can foot the bill?

 

I really wonder if he would even qualify for the Darwin award no matter how bad the accident was - how many people do this every year without incident? Is it really that much more dangerous than half the things people do in the day?

 

On the other note, I think every effort should be made to save him. I don't like the idea of prejudging people's activities to determine if they are worth administering emergency care. If his injuries resulted from an unprovoked brutal assault, would it still even be a question?

Or is it an open question because we have passed judgment on whether he was foolish in the first place to be there? How objective is that judgment, or is it based on the emotional response of how "foolish" it is to risk going through that experience, after the fact and after the accident with no accounting for how rare such accidents are compared to all the people out there that do it every day without injury?

 

If I were to agree that there is a "certain level of stupid" that implies a no-resuscitation order of sorts, I don't think I could ever agree that such a judgment could be made fairly and quickly enough to preempt live saving care.

 

It may not be the case here but "Oh shoot, no one told me he was pushed - I would have treated him then" style facts can come pretty late in the game, and you don't have long to make corrections.

[A Tripolation]

I come to that conclusion because I know that all humans, no matter how bright or how dim, has the potential to make hideous mistakes with high costs. We've advanced enough as a society that such mistakes need not cost us our lives - though it may cost us in many other ways. In the end, a live person deep in debt and horribly disfigured brings more to society than a corpse.

 

Perhaps It's best summed up: Dead people have learned no lesson and tell no one their sad tale.

 

Well said JillSwift, that is how I feel as well. Even though it was his fault, he doesn't deserve to be condemned to death (by refusal of medical care) for one mistake.

 

I find the Darwin Awards not to be humor, but a series of astonishing, sad and sometimes terrifying tales of what happens when someone fails to think things through, just once.

 

But most people read them because they think they are funny, which imo, is a deplorable thing to do.

I myself almost caused a bad accident when I pushed the clutch in on a tractor while it was going downhill. I thought it was the brake, and since this tractor relies on engine-braking to stop it from careening down a hill, my action was incredibly stupid, and would've resulted in severe injuries had the other people not been paying attention.

That would have merited a Darwin Award had someone been killed, and I personally do not see any good that comes from posting such Darwin Award stories because of a person's mistake at some point in their life.

 

I despise people that feel they can judge based on so few actions.

[Mr Skeptic]

IMO- Of course he 'deserves' to be saved,

 

I don't think he deserves (unpaid) treatment, but rather that we ought to treat him anyways, because our society is a compassionate one. Ie, not because he is entitled to it but because we are nice.

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I really wonder if he would even qualify for the Darwin award no matter how bad the accident was - how many people do this every year without incident?

 

You're right; it would not qualify -- it was risky behavior to impress the girls, but not something incredibly stupid.

[padren]

But most people read them because they think they are funny, which imo, is a deplorable thing to do.

I myself almost caused a bad accident when I pushed the clutch in on a tractor while it was going downhill. I thought it was the brake, and since this tractor relies on engine-braking to stop it from careening down a hill, my action was incredibly stupid, and would've resulted in severe injuries had the other people not been paying attention.

That would have merited a Darwin Award had someone been killed, and I personally do not see any good that comes from posting such Darwin Award stories because of a person's mistake at some point in their life.

 

I despise people that feel they can judge based on so few actions.

 

You can only win the Darwin award if you take yourself out of the gene pool, by physically rendering yourself incapable of reproduction or death, and by some action that implies a lack of cognition warranting being removed from the gene pool - by one's own doing of course.

 

For what it's worth, people who laugh at (make fun of) the misfortunes of others and people with no empathy are not one in the same, simply people without empathy tend to also laugh at (make fun of) people's misfortunes.

However, it's worth noting a lot of people who do laugh at things like the Darwins or jokes made at the expense of people's pain often just ascribe to the "nothing's sacred" mentality while still being fiercely protective and caring towards others. It's not like they'd stand around and laugh rather than help a person in a dire situation.

Perhaps it's because there will be suffering regardless, that people make light of it to salvage some levity from the situation. Perhaps it's the pushing the limits on taboo that often creates a humorous reaction, which many comedians play off of. I don't think it's as simple as having one or the other though (empathy or cynicism) and like most human emotions it's rather more complex.

[Dudde]

Perhaps It's best summed up: Dead people have learned no lesson and tell no one their sad tale.

 

I agree whole-heartedly with Jill and the others in this sentiment. Of course it's a little dangerous diving off piers, but accidents like this rarely happen (as I've done that exact activity in very similar surroundings). As Padren clarified in regards to the darwin award, I don't this would be considered in the slightest

[Syntho-sis]

I agree whole-heartedly with Jill and the others in this sentiment. Of course it's a little dangerous diving off piers, but accidents like this rarely happen (as I've done that exact activity in very similar surroundings). As Padren clarified in regards to the darwin award, I don't this would be considered in the slightest

 

On their website, if the fellow actually survives such an accident I think that constitutes a 'near miss.'

[bascule]

I really wonder if he would even qualify for the Darwin award no matter how bad the accident was - how many people do this every year without incident? Is it really that much more dangerous than half the things people do in the day?

 

That was really the sentiment of this thread: it takes very very little to go from being a perfectly healthy person to having a debilitating and potentially fatal injury. Can you imagine, had this guy lived, how many operations he would have to go through to have something resembling a normal face again, and how much that would have cost? All because of one little slip...

 

While the activity he was performing was obviously unsafe, my point is something like this can happen to anyone, anytime.

[Syntho-sis]

While the activity he was performing was obviously unsafe, my point is something like this can happen to anyone, anytime.

 

Can but it doesn't. Most of us won't die glorious, awesome deaths like that. Most of us will live incredibly boring lives and then die watching Marx brothers tapes and sucking on a prune.

 

Fight club was such a good movie.

[DrP]

 

Well, I guess, if you live in Lebanon, you die.

 

If you live in the US, you probably live, horribly disfigured, and $500,000 in debt for medical care your insurance didn't bother to cover. Oh, and now comes the outpatient rehabilitation.

 

 

Or if you live in the UK you get rushed to hospital in an ambulance without anythought at all if you have insurance or not - we are ALL covered for such things here regardless of wallet or brain size.

 

 

While the activity he was performing was obviously unsafe, my point is something like this can happen to anyone, anytime.

 

Well of course it can! That's life. I still don't see your point at all. I could get run over by a bus tomorrow, or maybe not. So what? Didn't we all get taught this when we were about 2 years old? Your parents should have instilled and drilled into your head that the world is a dangerous place and that just one slip can get you killed - or indeed just one slip from someone else can get you killed without you even doing anything wrong at all. If not then you'll get a shock as you lean this the hard way.

[JillSwift]

Well of course it can! That's life. I still don't see your point at all. I could get run over by a bus tomorrow, or maybe not. So what? Didn't we all get taught this when we were about 2 years old?

No. Not all of us.

 

Your parents should have instilled and drilled into your head that the world is a dangerous place and that just one slip can get you killed - or indeed just one slip from someone else can get you killed without you even doing anything wrong at all. If not then you'll get a shock as you lean this the hard way.

My parents tried to instill the idea that death is somthing that comes for us all at some point, guided and decided by this super being in the sky, and that it should be welcome and celebrated as a ticket to paradise.

 

But somehow suicide wasn't acceptable, because it flew in the face of this super being's plan. Weird.

 

Anyway.

 

I appreciate the occasional reminder of life's fragility. It reminds me that I should spend time right now to appreciate being alive.

[A Tripolation]

My parents tried to instill the idea that death is somthing that comes for us all at some point, guided and decided by this super being in the sky, and that it should be welcome and celebrated as a ticket to paradise.

 

But somehow suicide wasn't acceptable, because it flew in the face of this super being's plan. Weird.

 

Anyway.

 

I appreciate the occasional reminder of life's fragility. It reminds me that I should spend time right now to appreciate being alive.

 

Well, maybe that's the best way of explaining the concept of mortality to children.

 

And yes, this was an excellent reminder, and I wish I had heeded the warning about not watching the video. I've never seen such...blood everywhere like that.