Last night I was logged into a popular live-streaming board game website, and the stream host commented on the fact that their opponent had just disconnected from the game server and reconnected on a mobile phone (shown by an icon in their user ID), and wondered why they were doing so.

I suggested in live chat they maybe had a flakey computer internet connection and had switched to a mobile phone, but I was immediately rebuked by several other viewers who said, “No - It would show up as the same device” - which is clearly and obviously completely wrong.

A computer connects via a broadband ISP network, while a mobile phone connects via a 5G mobile data link. These are serviced by completely different carriers, so the two devices would have different network IPv6 addresses. They would also have unique browser fingerprints based on their operating system and screen resolutions, as well as unique ‘user agent’ strings - probably the first thing a website looks at. Even if you make use of a browser data syncing system between devices on a commmon wi-fi network, a website can always tell the difference between your computer and your mobile phone.

The thing that intrigued me was “Why do I know this, and why don’t they?” After all I’m just a hobbyist, not a trained IT professional. The answer that dawned on me was that the Gen Z /TikTok generation of gamers simply have no conception of how the internet works under the hood. They may be experts at content/brand creation, or racking up top scores on GTA or Call of Duty, but have no knowledge of packet-switching, TCP protocol stacks, or DHCP on local router networks - Am I right ?

My own experience of using the internet dates back to the mid-1990s when everything was a good deal clunkier to use -  an experience sharpened by exploring IRC (internet relay chat) extensively  - which tends to involve a crash-course in networking theory. If you have ever spent time getting DCC CHAT and NAT (network address translation) to work on IRC via DHCP (dynamic host configuration protocol) behind a local broadband router, then you will probably understand what I’m talking about !

The ‘Zoomers’ don’t it seems. They are the PnP generation who expect everything to work all by itself at the first time of asking, and get very puzzled when it doesn’t, because they have no idea how it works in the first place ;-)

“Those who do not understand computers will be controlled by those who do”  - (anon)

2 hours ago, toucana said:

Last night I was logged into a popular live-streaming board game website, and the stream host commented on the fact that their opponent had just disconnected from the game server and reconnected on a mobile phone (shown by an icon in their user ID), and wondered why they were doing so.

I suggested in live chat they maybe had a flakey computer internet connection and had switched to a mobile phone, but I was immediately rebuked by several other viewers who said, “No - It would show up as the same device” - which is clearly and obviously completely wrong.

A computer connects via a broadband ISP network, while a mobile phone connects via a 5G mobile data link. These are serviced by completely different carriers, so the two devices would have different network IPv6 addresses. They would also have unique browser fingerprints based on their operating system and screen resolutions, as well as unique ‘user agent’ strings - probably the first thing a website looks at. Even if you make use of a browser data syncing system between devices on a commmon wi-fi network, a website can always tell the difference between your computer and your mobile phone.

The thing that intrigued me was “Why do I know this, and why don’t they?” After all I’m just a hobbyist, not a trained IT professional. The answer that dawned on me was that the Gen Z /TikTok generation of gamers simply have no conception of how the internet works under the hood. They may be experts at content/brand creation, or racking up top scores on GTA or Call of Duty, but have no knowledge of packet-switching, TCP protocol stacks, or DHCP on local router networks - Am I right ?

My own experience of using the internet dates back to the mid-1990s when everything was a good deal clunkier to use -  an experience sharpened by exploring IRC (internet relay chat) extensively  - which tends to involve a crash-course in networking theory. If you have ever spent time getting DCC CHAT and NAT (network address translation) to work on IRC via DHCP (dynamic host configuration protocol) behind a local broadband router, then you will probably understand what I’m talking about !

The ‘Zoomers’ don’t it seems. They are the PnP generation who expect everything to work all by itself at the first time of asking, and get very puzzled when it doesn’t, because they have no idea how it works in the first place ;-)

“Those who do not understand computers will be controlled by those who do”  - (anon)

To some extent this must be a natural progression. I'm old enough to have ground the valves in the cylinder head and tuned the carburettors of an MGB, but you can't do that kind of thing on a modern car because of all the computer connections and emission-related adjustments. So I'm not surprised about all the TCP/IP stuff. But I admit one might expect people to know the difference between a broadband connection and a mobile. After all, they are commonly supplied by different providers on different contracts.

3 hours ago, toucana said:

The thing that intrigued me was “Why do I know this, and why don’t they?” After all I’m just a hobbyist, not a trained IT professional. The answer that dawned on me was that the Gen Z /TikTok generation of gamers simply have no conception of how the internet works under the hood. They may be experts at content/brand creation, or racking up top scores on GTA or Call of Duty, but have no knowledge of packet-switching, TCP protocol stacks, or DHCP on local router networks - Am I right ?

A valid point, I think. It’s a little like how more people used to be able to maintain or fix their own cars, out of necessity. You had to know things about the internet because nothing was (reliably) plug-and-play. Now very few know what’s going on under the hood.

(edit: posted w/o seeing exchemist’s comment, using a similar analogy)

1 hour ago, exchemist said:

To some extent this must be a natural progression. I'm old enough to have ground the valves in the cylinder head and tuned the carburettors of an MGB, but you can't do that kind of thing on a modern car because of all the computer connections and emission-related adjustments. So I'm not surprised about all the TCP/IP stuff. But I admit one might expect people to know the difference between a broadband connection and a mobile. After all, they are commonly supplied by different providers on different contracts.

I think all of that is due to how streamlined, seamless and convenient things have become. The younger generation does not need to think or know about how things work, it just does. It feels a bit like stereotyping but its also seems to me that folks are less curious about why or how things work.

They essentially grew up with a magic square slab that keeps them entertained without pause and probably also distracted them from being curious about its inner workings (such as how it accesses the internet). This certainly also extends to other aspects related to the technology. For example, most don't seem to have a clue how data is stored on the phone and in university, a high number of younger students don't really know how to save or organize files. A common thing you hear is that on their phone the file is "just there".

As a general trend I found that kids are getting less tech-savvy over time and the difference between younger and older students is growing.

Yep, I was also going to make the automotive analogy, where I could completely assemble a 65 VW bug from parts back before engines got buried in electronic control modules and sensors. The fun bit, with the Bug, was the air-cooled engine. (and just lifting the car's rear to roll the whole engine out, no hoist needed)

I'm surprised when I'll talk with a Z or Millennial who seem somewhat computer savvy and then they'll say something like, what's a C prompt? You show them how to get one and they act like it's magic.

18 minutes ago, CharonY said:

They essentially grew up with a magic square slab that keeps them entertained without pause and probably also distracted them from being curious about its inner workings...

When I was around ten, I had partly disassembled an old tube television before my dad shut that down, pointing out that the capacitors could still deliver a shock. I protested that I knew how to discharge a capacitor, but he clarified that I didn't and that I had overlooked several things including that the CRT also acted a capacitor and could store a shock for several days after unplugging. It's a wonder I survived my childhood.

Guess I’ll just have to accept that I’m now an old-timer, bumbling around in the basement of the internet, fondly stroking archaic old relic equipment, and muttering to myself about how wonderful the sweet mating music of dial-up modems used to be :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpMrTxMV6E4

13 hours ago, toucana said:

If you have ever spent time getting DCC CHAT and NAT (network address translation) to work on IRC via DHCP (dynamic host configuration protocol) behind a local broadband router, then you will probably understand what I’m talking about !

In order for port forwarding to make sense, you need to have a public static IP address for your router. Nowadays, this is rare. Private individuals are assigned private dynamic IP addresses. And to have a public static IP address, you need to have a company and pay for it.

People who want to have their own server at home, e.g. CS:GO or Minecraft, continue to forward ports.

14 hours ago, toucana said:

They are the PnP generation who expect everything to work all by itself at the first time of asking, and get very puzzled when it doesn’t, because they have no idea how it works in the first place ;-)

Nowadays, we have the UPnP protocol for routers, among other things, which is used to open ports by a specific application:

https://www.google.com/search?q=UPnP+port+forwarding

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Plug_and_Play

Discussions about port forwarding for Minecraft server using UPnP (or manually):

https://www.google.com/search?q=UPnP+port+forwarding+minecraft

14 hours ago, toucana said:

A computer connects via a broadband ISP network, while a mobile phone connects via a 5G mobile data link. These are serviced by completely different carriers, so the two devices would have different network IPv6 addresses.

How can you know that someone is using 5G and has IPv6? You just made that up.

I go to a website that is supposed to provide my IPv6 address (I'm on my mobile right now) and it says that it cannot detect my IPv6 address.

Pick up an IPv6 detection website, and if it detects your IPv6, we will attempt to verify whether you have a public static IP address.

14 hours ago, toucana said:

A computer connects via a broadband ISP network, while a mobile phone connects via a 5G mobile data link.

..unless someone is using their mobile phone as a router for their computer (like I am right now)..

Random hotspots in restaurants, for example, you also don't know how they connect, whether through their GSM modem or fiber optic cable.

(my laptops used to be premium class and have built-in GSM modems – I can plug a SIM card to them and use the Internet from mobile cell towers..)

(even worse, you can send and receive SMS messages that come to these built-in GSM modems from Linux)

36 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Yeah it's a Rotel tuner/amp from the early 1980s. Model RX 403. Again, works fine so why replace? Connections are phono analogue, so I suppose that means RCA.

If it's a Rotel RX 403 then you have a pair of Monitor line-outs available as RCA phono sockets - on the bottom left of the backplate (see photo attached below). You could simply connect from those to a wireless audio bridge.

9 hours ago, Sensei said:

In order for port forwarding to make sense, you need to have a public static IP address for your router. Nowadays, this is rare. Private individuals are assigned private dynamic IP addresses. And to have a public static IP address, you need to have a company and pay for it.

I used to have a static public broadband IP address for almost 20 years until my ISP went out of business and I was forced to switch to EE whose public router IP addresses change every time the router reboots or gets a firmware update -  a real pain in the neck which means I regularly have to use a look-up tool to check what my public IP currently is (EE call it  a ’semi-static” public address) and then change the hard-coded value in my IRC client to match (you can’t use  the ‘lookup server” method, because you will simply get the 192.168.x.x LAN address assigned under DHCP by your router which is unrouteable on the WAN side.

9 hours ago, Sensei said:

How can you know that someone is using 5G and has IPv6? You just made that up.

In IRC you can simply run the command  /whois <nick> and you will instantly get their full host and IP address details (unless they happen to be using a stealth mode cloaking system). You can then tell at a glance whether they are using IPv4, IPv6, or mobile,  and if you are really curious you can run a traceoute and a reverse DNS look-up to get their location as well. In some cases we were able to tell that particular users were actually connected to IRC via WebTV service which was quite a novelty back then.

Didn't realise that the thread had been split just before I made my last post. The backplate photo above belongs to the new thread about wiring Wharfdale Denton 2 speakers now over in Engineering :-)

59 minutes ago, toucana said:

If it's a Rotel RX 403 then you have a pair of Monitor line-outs available as RCA phono sockets - on the bottom left of the backplate (see photo attached below). You could simply connect from those to a wireless audio bridge.

Didn't realise that the thread had been split just before I made my last post. The backplate photo above belongs to the new thread about wiring Wharfdale Denton 2 speakers now over in Engineering :-)

Yes those are the tape output sockets that @studiot was referring to. So yeah, I have a solution for the wi-fi transmitting end, by the look of it. Thanks.

3 hours ago, toucana said:

I used to have a static public broadband IP address for almost 20 years until my ISP went out of business and I was forced to switch to EE whose public router IP addresses change every time the router reboots or gets a firmware update -  a real pain in the neck [...]

You are in the same position as the rest of the world. They started charging extra money for a public static IP address.

3 hours ago, toucana said:

[...] which means I regularly have to use a look-up tool to check what my public IP currently is (EE call it  a ’semi-static” public address) and then change the hard-coded value in my IRC client to match (you can’t use  the ‘lookup server” method, because you will simply get the 192.168.x.x LAN address assigned under DHCP by your router which is unrouteable on the WAN side.

Try:

curl -s https://ipecho.net/plain

alternatives:

curl https://api.ipify.org

if you prefer JSON:

curl 'https://api.ipify.org?format=json'

if you want IPv6 in JSON:

curl 'https://api64.ipify.org?format=json'

3 hours ago, toucana said:

In IRC you can simply run the command  /whois <nick> and you will instantly get their full host and IP address details (unless they happen to be using a stealth mode cloaking system). You can then tell at a glance whether they are using IPv4, IPv6, or mobile,  and if you are really curious you can run a traceoute and a reverse DNS look-up to get their location as well.

Such tools are not reliable.

Today I am located 60 km away from me, usually it is 300 km.

On Linux write:

curl -s "https://ipinfo.io/$(curl -s https://api.ipify.org)"

Such tools are not reliable.

3 hours ago, Sensei said:

Such tools are not reliable.

Today I am located 60 km away from me, usually it is 300 km.

Your mileage may vary. On one occasion a few years ago on IRC we had an abusive troll causing trouble in a novice-friendly channel where I was an AOP. Rather than kick-banning the offender, we decided to have a little fun with him. We used the /whois <nick> command to check his host details , which not only gave us his IP address, but we also found that he had unwisely filled in the gecos field which provided us with his real name too. The reverse DNS look-up gave the location as a rural town in the mid-west. We then found a searchable online telephone directory for that township, and found an entry that matched the name in the gecos field.

We then asked him in channel if his real name was XXXX XXXX, and cited his full postal address, zip-code and telephone number. Guy vanished like a ghost at dawn and never troubled us again  ;-)

16 minutes ago, toucana said:

Your mileage may vary. On one occasion a few years ago on IRC we had an abusive troll causing trouble in a novice-friendly channel where I was an AOP. Rather than kick-banning the offender, we decided to have a little fun with him. We used the /whois <nick> command to check his host details , which not only gave us his IP address, but we also found that he had unwisely filled in the gecos field which provided us with his real name too. The reverse DNS look-up gave the location as a rural town in the mid-west. We then found a searchable online telephone directory for that township, and found an entry that matched the name in the gecos field.

We then asked him in channel if his real name was XXXX XXXX, and cited his full postal address, zip-code and telephone number. Guy vanished like a ghost at dawn and never troubled us again  ;-)

Well, I was talking about today's situation, i.e. everybody with dynamic private IPs. If someone has a public static IP, they can have HTTP, HTTPS, SSH, VNC servers, etc. there, so basically you had to start by doing

nmap HIS-IP-ADDRESS

to check what ports are open at this IP..

He could host personal website there.

Now you see how this can cause problems with anonymity?

Edited August 8Aug 8 by Sensei

10 hours ago, toucana said:

You can then tell at a glance whether they are using IPv4, IPv6, or mobile,  and if you are really curious you can run a traceoute and a reverse DNS look-up to get their location as well.

Reverse DNS lookup will put me seventy miles away from my location. Not a great locator method, possibly.

4 hours ago, toucana said:

We then asked him in channel if his real name was XXXX XXXX, and cited his full postal address, zip-code and telephone number. Guy vanished like a ghost at dawn and never troubled us again  ;-)

Mixed feelings about doxxing someone, but you may have had some positive effect on overall level of abuse and bullying and your actions had no malice. Probably some lesson was learned by the troll, we'll never know.

We had just moved to Corvallis Oregon in the summer of 1988 when Oregon State University was starting its own IRC - along with the famous one in Oulu, Finland it was one of the first in the world. The guy in Finland contacted OSU and they joined together along with some other US IRC. In a year, there were dozens of servers across the globe.

15 hours ago, TheVat said:

We had just moved to Corvallis Oregon in the summer of 1988 when Oregon State University was starting its own IRC - along with the famous one in Oulu, Finland it was one of the first in the world. The guy in Finland contacted OSU and they joined together along with some other US IRC. In a year, there were dozens of servers across the globe.

Yep. Jarkko Oikarinen was an Electrical Engineering student at Oulu University in Finland who got a summer job in 1988 working as a Unix server admin at tolsun.oulu.fi.

http://www.computer-timeline.com/timeline/jarkko-oikarinen/

He spent part of his summer internship stripping down and rebuilding a public access BBS (bulletin board system), and that software project then turned into IRC (internet relay chat). Originally there were just three IRC servers in the network - all in Finnish universities -  at Oulu, Tampere and Helsinki.

He got an account on the MIT university server the following year, and posted details of IRC which led to the first IRC servers outside of Scandinavia being set up in the US.

Jarkko Oikarinen subsequently did significant research into medical imaging, telemedicine, and computed axial tomography.

On 8/8/2025 at 11:55 PM, TheVat said:

Mixed feelings about doxxing someone, but you may have had some positive effect on overall level of abuse and bullying and your actions had no malice. Probably some lesson was learned by the troll, we'll never know.

Quite a few of the trolls around at that time seemed to be refugees from Napster, a pirate MP3 music-sharing service that was bankrupted and shut down by the courts in 2002.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napster

Many of those trolls were complete sociopaths - nazis, homophobes, and red-neck racists who thought they could simply migrate onto IRC and set up fservers there instead. They tried to take over channels, and basically bully and intimidate anyone who got in their way or stood up them - far worse than the usual blowins from EFnet.

There were numerous confrontations with these people  - some of them bot-herders running flood-nets, port scanners, netsplit cloners, and identity thieves. I never had any compunction about doxing or getting those trolls K-lined - one too many death threats.