2 hours ago, Peterkin said:

But the US has a whole lot of other genetic defects to cope with that monolithic cultures don't have.

Elaborate please

18 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

What makes you think I'm frustrated? Concerned, certainly, not wishing to live in the 51st state of Trumpland. You have your opinion. Mine is that the tools don't work. The union has never worked particularly well, even when the surface seemed unruffled. I believe the country - preferably four to six separate countries - need to be reinvented.

I'm not handing you anything; it's always been yours. If vigilance and law and journalism worked, it wouldn't be in the present mess. People did protest in 1965 and 1974 and lots of other times, yet, here we are. You say it's fixable. Show me how you go about it, democratically. If you don't solve it now, you'll never get another chance.

I didn't mention the Weimar - you keep doing that. Italy and Spain were different, too, just as Hungary is different now, but the same thing happened there too. Not being 1932 Germany is no protection against fascism. I cited an article about Hitler's acts after he came to power and asked whether you recognize any similarities to Trump's acts since he came to power.

It means the system needs a major overhaul, and that never happens without a major breakdown.

I never said every action was useless. I said you waited too long and now only radical, costly action can have any effect - and you can't predict the outcome. In situations like this, the good guys always suffer more casualties.

Optimistic to think you have a decade to piss away on lawsuits and op-ed pieces in the Times.

Here's hoping they take place. Remember Trump's promise to his beautiful Christians that they'll never have to vote again. My feeling is, he's gearing up to martial law, and he's not letting the grass grow under the armoured cars. He's old - no time for pussyfooting. But at least he won't get to be pope.

The interesting question is which side the armed services will take. I'm guessing a split - which will make it really interesting. And pretty awful, like last time. Unbridgeable schisms occur; dictatorships are real; revolutions and civil wars have happened, and they can happen here. (Well, here is not there, yet, but we only narrowly escaped a Trumpling government this spring; we have a hostile neighbour with a giant arsenal and no intelligent life in its wheelhouse; our economy and autonomy are under attack.... You may understand why I don't feel secure in the institutions.)

Peterkin, I genuinely respect where you’re coming from. I know you're not being dramatic or unrealistic, and I did not mean to talk past you. When I said the tools still work, I did not mean they work easily or that they have not been badly damaged. I just meant that abandoning them altogether feels like giving up the last levers we still have.

You are right that the system has always had deep cracks. The union was never some perfect, functional machine. But there have been moments — however flawed — when pressure from the public, from the courts, from the press, and from people just refusing to back down did change the course of things. Not enough, and not always fast enough, but it still mattered. If we walk away now, I do not think we are clearing a path to a better structure. I think we’re just letting the worst people finish what they started.

You said resistance will now have to be radical and costly. I do not disagree with that. But I believe that kind of resistance can still be grounded in reality. I do not think lawsuits and journalism are enough — not anymore — but I do think they are still necessary.

I know this is not about Weimar for you. You were making a broader point. I understand it overall now. My reference to it was just to push back against people who see any alarm as exaggeration. I do see parallels, but I also know history does not need to repeat itself in the same clothes. =)

10 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Optimistic to think you have a decade to piss away on lawsuits and op-ed pieces in the Times.

Interesting back and forth between you and Sohan, pessimism v optimism, a polarity where I find myself on a middle ground. Watching traditional hardball journalism falter in recent years, I can lean pessimistic especially when the worst people are getting AI tools of propaganda and flooding the social media zone. OTOH, Sohan's optimism can also be contagious in a good way and encourage people to get off the bench. I think Churchill's maxim, democracy is not a great system but it's better than all the others, holds. US democrats really need to come together and rebuild the focused progressive big umbrella that they used to sorta make work. Democracy is always fragile, especially in a nation which is (as you've observed) an uneasy union of several sub-nations. Some of them very far, in every sense, from DC.

10 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

But the US has a whole lot of other genetic defects to cope with that monolithic cultures don't have.

Elaborate please

The big, indigestible kernel of it is in the second paragraph of the declaration of independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--", whereupon, the Constitution snatches those 'unalienable' rights back from the majority of men: Natives, Africans and those who don't own land (with no inquiry into the legitimacy land acquisition). A self-inflicted wound that's never stopped bleeding. Then the immigrants came, from various places, by various routes, but generally poor and exploitable, bringing their cultures and languages, forming discreet lumps of otherness in the body politic. Bringing their religions - and Christian sects tend not to play well with other religions. Being different skin colours - recognizable; easy to target when a distraction was needed.

This is causing huge problems now in countries that have always been one colour, one culture, one history, one faith. Europeans are having a very hard time coping with the others in their midst. Tolerance was all very well in theory, in trade, defense and travel. But the loss of their colonies continued to rankle deep in the national psyche, and the habitual European arrogance will assert itself, when asked to regard brown heathen as equals on their own territory.

The upwelling of resentment is a shock to them; for America, it's part of the fabric.

42 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Sohan's optimism can also be contagious in a good way and encourage people to get off the bench.

Optimism is nice. The Harris campaign was brimming over with optimism. But I think what prompts people off the bench is a direct threat to themselves and their life-long assumptions. That's what we're seeing now. Hopefully, this will give pause to demagogues; they'll back off and at least pretend to observe the old rules until a resistance can consolidate. Hopefully, people will take meaningful counteraction before they're up against the wall and bereft of options, and they desperately need a Che Guevara or Giuseppe Garibaldi - one of the few remaining patriotic generals might do, if putsch comes to shove. Meanwhile, if there is a pause, they need a suitable philosophy or guide book; a progressive Project 2026, that could unite people under one flag. The scariest bit: that flag might be carried by a woman and plfft goes solidarity.

Edited June 16Jun 16 by Peterkin

Well I had no idea the US is this far gone. if they can back coup back then what is to say they will not do it again.

Retired general warns the U.S. military could back a coup after the 2024 election

As the anniversary of the insurrection at the U.S. Capitol approaches, three retired U.S. generals have warned that another insurrection could occur after the 2024 presidential election and that the military could support it.

The generals – Paul Eaton, Antonio Taguba and Steven Anderson – made their case in a recent Washington Post op-ed. "In short: We are chilled to our bones at the thought of a coup succeeding next time," they wrote.

Paul Eaton, a retired U.S. Army major general and a senior adviser to VoteVets, spoke with NPR's Mary Louise Kelly earlier this week.

Below are the highlights of the conversation.

And we saw it when 124 retired generals and admirals signed a letter contesting the 2020 election. We're concerned about that. And we're interested in seeing mitigating measures applied to make sure that our military is better prepared for a contested election, should that happen in 2024.

Read more here

NPR

Retired general warns the U.S. military could back a coup...

Retired Maj. Gen. Paul Eaton says war-gaming and civics education could help assure that the military is better prepared for a contested election.

14 minutes ago, Moon99 said:

Retired general warns the U.S. military could back a coup after the 2024 election

That’s an article from the end of 2021, and the implication is that it was a possibility if Trump lost, which did not happen.

The aspects of it that remain include the disinformation mill parts - politicians and media flat-out lying in order to advance a narrative to the credulous among the population.

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

The big, indigestible kernel of it is in the second paragraph of the declaration of independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--", whereupon, the Constitution snatches those 'unalienable' rights back from the majority of men: Natives, Africans and those who don't own land (with no inquiry into the legitimacy land acquisition). A self-inflicted wound that's never stopped bleeding. Then the immigrants came, from various places, by various routes, but generally poor and exploitable, bringing their cultures and languages, forming discreet lumps of otherness in the body politic. Bringing their religions - and Christian sects tend not to play well with other religions. Being different skin colours - recognizable; easy to target when a distraction was needed.

This is causing huge problems now in countries that have always been one colour, one culture, one history, one faith. Europeans are having a very hard time coping with the others in their midst. Tolerance was all very well in theory, in trade, defense and travel. But the loss of their colonies continued to rankle deep in the national psyche, and the habitual European arrogance will assert itself, when asked to regard brown heathen as equals on their own territory.

The upwelling of resentment is a shock to them; for America, it's part of the fabric.

Optimism is nice. The Harris campaign was brimming over with optimism. But I think what prompts people off the bench is a direct threat to themselves and their life-long assumptions. That's what we're seeing now. Hopefully, this will give pause to demagogues; they'll back off and at least pretend to observe the old rules until a resistance can consolidate. Hopefully, people will take meaningful counteraction before they're up against the wall and bereft of options, and they desperately need a Che Guevara or Giuseppe Garibaldi - one of the few remaining patriotic generals might do, if putsch comes to shove. Meanwhile, if there is a pause, they need a suitable philosophy or guide book; a progressive Project 2026, that could unite people under one flag. The scariest bit: that flag might be carried by a woman and plfft goes solidarity.

you are right, it has never stopped bleeding. That contradiction became structural. It shaped the way power was distributed, how citizenship was defined, and who was allowed to be visible, let alone heard.

Your description of the immigrant waves, each carrying their own histories, beliefs, languages, and scars, becoming isolated "lumps of otherness," is not just metaphorically true — it describes how American identity was never singular, but always fragmented and conditional. The divisions were never healed, only managed, and often poorly. The religious aspect matters too. There has never been much room in the American mainstream for true pluralism, even though the rhetoric suggests otherwise. Suspicion and hierarchy were often the norm, not the exception.

I also see your point about Europe — that its post-colonial anxiety and now the discomfort with internal diversity have led to a familiar kind of backlash. But in America, this pressure has been woven into everything from the beginning. It’s not a shock here, like you said — it’s the air. Which makes it harder to dislodge.

As for optimism, I get why it feels insufficient. You’re right that what usually gets people off the bench is not hope but threat. And we are deep into that phase now. What I think matters, and maybe this is where our perspectives differ slightly

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

This is causing huge problems now in countries that have always been one colour, one culture, one history, one faith. Europeans are having a very hard time coping with the others in their midst. Tolerance was all very well in theory, in trade, defense and travel. But the loss of their colonies continued to rankle deep in the national psyche, and the habitual European arrogance will assert itself, when asked to regard brown heathen as equals on their own territory.

I don’t think it is solely the Europeans, I think it’s the result of a lack of communication and general cooperation. Pointing fingers gets us nowhere.

9 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

What I think matters, and maybe this is where our perspectives differ slightly

Well, for one thing, I'm looking at America from the outside - have been since the 1959, mostly on television, with only short sojourns inside the US border. Prime time programming reveals everything you need to know about the mood and direction of a culture. I've witnessed the changes, the undulations up and down. One constant has been the steady increase in violence and sentimentality (That's a huge red flag), alongside a decline in linguistic skill and nuanced thought.) This current down is far deeper, steeper and faster than any I've seen before. The forces of evil have formed a wider, far better co-ordinated alliance than I've seen before, and they've been chopping away at the very foundations of democracy. If you win the next round, you still won't be able to carry out the extensive reforms and purges required to prevent another down-slide two years after that, especially as the most important reform would be incomprehensible to most Americans: detaching the electoral process from financial interest.

Have I gone far enough off topic yet?

Edited June 16Jun 16 by Peterkin
missed words

1 minute ago, Peterkin said:

Well, for one thing, I'm looking at America from the outside - have been since the 1959, mostly on television. (Prime time programming reveals everything you need to know about the mood and direction of people.) I've witnessed the changes, the undulations up and down. One constant has been the steady increase in violence and sentimentality alongside a decline in linguistic skill and nuanced thought.) This current down is far deeper, steeper and faster than any I've seen before. The forces of evil have formed a wider, far better co-ordinated alliance than I've seen before, and they've been chopping away at the very foundations of democracy. If you win the next round, you still won't be able to carry out the extensive reforms and purges required to prevent another down-slide two years after that, especially as the most important reform would be incomprehensible to most Americans: detaching the electoral process from financial interest

You are also right to say this particular moment feels steeper and darker than before. It does. The alliances forming against democratic values are not only more coordinated, they are unapologetic. They have figured out how to weaponize bureaucracy, cynicism, exhaustion, and even nostalgia. And while that may sound dramatic, I don’t think it is. It is simply the situation as it stands.

But I also think your point about reforms cuts right to the core. Even if the worst is avoided in the next election, the underlying systems are still broken. The rot did not start with Trump, and it will not end with him either. And yes, you are right — the most critical reform of all, removing financial power from the electoral process, is almost impossible to even discuss at scale here. Too many people do not see it as a problem, and too many who do feel it is simply untouchable. It is not just about campaign finance — it is about the role of money in shaping who gets heard, who gets dismissed, and who never even gets to show up.

Still, I do not believe that the impossibility of complete reform means total surrender is the only path. It may be that the best we can do in the short term is create enough friction to slow the collapse — and sometimes, that is enough to buy the time needed to build something stronger. But I agree with you — the fight ahead is not about winning once. It is about changing

1 minute ago, Peterkin said:

Have I gone far enough off topic yet?

No, I enjoy this dialouge. You are a very pleasant person to talk to =)

29 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

Pointing fingers gets us nowhere.

Tell that to a key witness in a murder trial. If you can't identify the actors and their motives, what do you have to go on. I didn't say solely, though I'm not current on the immigrant situation in Asia. Yes, it was Europeans who colonized much of the non-white world during the 16th to 19th centuries. Yes, they did feel entitled due to their presumed superiority. Yes, they continue to exhibit that sense of innate superiority. They've been doing a laudable (difficult) job of connecting with one another, but the old feelings haven't gone away without a trace.

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

Hopefully, this will give pause to demagogues; they'll back off and at least pretend to observe the old rules until a resistance can consolidate. Hopefully, people will take meaningful counteraction before they're up against the wall and bereft of options, and they desperately need a Che Guevara or Giuseppe Garibaldi - one of the few remaining patriotic generals might do, if putsch comes to shove. Meanwhile, if there is a pause, they need a suitable philosophy or guide book; a progressive Project 2026, that could unite people under one flag. The scariest bit: that flag might be carried by a woman and plfft goes solidarity.

1 hour ago, swansont said:

The aspects of it that remain include the disinformation mill parts - politicians and media flat-out lying in order to advance a narrative to the credulous among the population.

To both points I think we are dealing with a profoundly new situation related to how information flows through our society. A hallmark of dictatorships of the past was the direct control of media. In today's fractured information system, this is no longer necessary. Folks increasingly become passive receivers of information fluff, making them believe that they gained information, but ultimately they don't. Couple that with the easy but wrong and superficial answers from AI, we are dealing with an increasingly bigger disconnect between facts and perception.

The authoritarians thrive in this environment, as they never cared much for fact to begin with. The traditional democratic system face a critical challenge. Either lean into this environment and become demagogues themselves, or stay principled and risk continued loss of power.

Edit: there is is also some complicity of traditional media. In fear of appearing biased some contort themselves to find a middle-ground in basically anything. Due to how the right managed to shift the discussion in their favour, this essentially amounts to pre-obeying the administrations agenda.

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

old feelings haven't gone away without a trace.

The only time I’ve witnessed this is when the stupid wannabe Nazi commenters under the “Save Europe” media start chanting Aus###### R### which is a rude and anti immigrant slogan. Keep in mind most of these imbeciles are pissy teenagers with no lives. Comparative to Europe I say America has improved significantly when it comes to racially related issues, there are always going to be a few bad apples.

21 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

Keep in mind most of these imbeciles are pissy teenagers with no lives. Comparative to Europe I say America has improved significantly when it comes to racially related issues, there are always going to be a few bad apples.

That is simply not true ts. First, anti-immigrant sentiments have always been simmering everywhere, but the slogan you mentioned has become more prevalent. The far-right AfD in Germany is second-strongest party in Germany, for example. I.e. while much of it is driven by young men, it is far beyond just some teenagers.

If talking about race issues, there were always distinct differences, where Europe tended to have a more etho-centric approach to identity, whereas the US and Canada had more recognition and integration of immigrants. That being said, racism was heavily skewed against certain demographics, especially Indigenous and, in the US, Afro-Americans (and an assortment of other groups).

The history is uneven, with Europe having more systemic issues which were at least ostensibly race-neutral, whereas in the US it took a while to roll back at least some of the most clearly racialized policies. But when it comes to improvement, how can you possibly look at what the GOP and ICE is doing and characterize it as bad apples?

These folks that you characterized as pissy teenagers either have grown up or were already old and have taken over various positions of power across the world. The saying goes that few bad apples spoil the bunch. Guess what, the bunch is spoilt.

15 minutes ago, CharonY said:

These folks that you characterized as pissy teenagers either have grown up or were already old and have taken over various positions of power across the world. The saying goes that few bad apples spoil the bunch. Guess what, the bunch is spoilt.

Nothing about them is adult like and that’s coming from me 💀

These teenagers are a bunch of spoiled brats who think Europe should be one, uniform ethnicity and that the immigrant population should be exterminated, they also believe that Out Of Africa “is the leftie way of severing their roots” and that Cheddar Man having dark skin “is eradicating their culture.” They also claim to face a white genocide and make comments such as “Hitler had the right ideas.”

47 minutes ago, CharonY said:

That is simply not true ts. First, anti-immigrant sentiments have always been simmering everywhere, but the slogan you mentioned has become more prevalent. The far-right AfD in Germany is second-strongest party in Germany, for example. I.e. while much of it is driven by young men, it is far beyond just some teenagers.

What I have seen from common media is it’s a bunch of teenagers with no real life experience who are brainwashed to the point where they believe they are a chosen race. I can put some screenshots if you like

5 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

These teenagers are a bunch of spoiled brats who think Europe should be one, uniform ethnicity and that the immigrant population should be exterminated, they also believe that Out Of Africa “is the leftie way of severing their roots” and that Cheddar Man having dark skin “is eradicating their culture.” They also claim to face a white genocide and make comments such as “Hitler had the right ideas.”

You can call them teenagers, yet they are elected politicians and big chunk of the electorate. It might make you feel better if you characterize them as powerless kids, but they are not.

6 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

What I have seen from common media is it’s a bunch of teenagers with no real life experience who are brainwashed to the point where they believe they are a chosen race. I can put some screenshots if you like

The fact that kids are also part of it should not be used as a means to ignore the much more dangerous adults with the virtually the same ideology. Kids got it from somewhere. Just because this is the demographic you are mostly interacting with, does not make it the whole thing. The really depressing thing is that if anything it shows that this old ideology, which for a while was more associated with older, more conservative demographic, is now also attractive for kids (and more dominantly, male kids).

2 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

Keep in mind most of these imbeciles are pissy teenagers with no lives.

AKA the leaders of tomorrow. Von Schirach trained up a youth movement for Hitler; a significant portion of soldiers in the Cruasdes were in their late teens; Stalin had his Young Pioneers (and Putin has a fresh batch cooking) the Incels, NRA and Christian Identity are doing the same to American boys - only without the discipline. This, the boys believe, is the route to empowerment and significance. Never underestimate the viciousness potential of youth!

2 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

Comparative to Europe I say America has improved significantly when it comes to racially related issues, there are always going to be a few bad apples.

Say, 47%? America had a few brief interruptions to ethnic strife - including a period when the bone of contention was a conscription for a foreign war and freedom of speech - youth again - but even still, many of the prejudicial laws, and all the residue from discriminatory laws still pervade the culture. Most European countries have also made substantial progress on racial issues.

46 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

These teenagers are a bunch of spoiled brats who think Europe should be one, uniform ethnicity

The youngest leader of these teenage brats is 34.

56 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

Nothing about them is adult like and that’s coming from me

You mean they're teenagers, regardless of age, because they act in ways you don't consider adult? In that case, all the world's atrocities originate with immature kids. Dismissal-though-rebranding of the problem is not a solution.

Edited June 16Jun 16 by Peterkin
incomplete sentences

2 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

I never claimed it was, the examples are giving though are that of teenagers.

The examples that I have given though are that of teenagers*

In your prior posts you referred to a few bad apples and that only time you witnessed that behaviour was from teenagers. My larger point is that this just happens to be the group you are more familiar with but the issue is much broader and goes beyond either a few apples or a few teenagers. This does not invalidate your experiences, just saying that this is a limited view on the overall matter.

Framing the issue as just or even mainly coming form a few basement-dwelling teenagers is just off.

2 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

You mean they're teenagers, regardless of age, because they act in ways you don't consider adult? In that case, all the world's originate with immature kids. Dismissal-though-rebranding of the problem is not a solution.

It’s generally not in my interpretation on whether they act immature or not, some of the shit they spew out is largely socially unacceptable for someone that young with no life experience. =)

1 minute ago, CharonY said:

In your prior posts you referred to a few bad apples and that only time you witnessed that behaviour was from teenagers. My larger point is that this just happens to be the group you are more familiar with but the issue is much broader and goes beyond either a few apples or a few teenagers. This does not invalidate your experiences, just saying that this is a limited view on the overall matter.

Framing the issue as just or even mainly coming form a few basement-dwelling teenagers is just off.

Agreed, it does occur with a larger population of people. Again, I’m not saying this is a teenager specific issue, it’s just that in most of the instances I have seen it is a group of juveniles attempting to sound tough, I will try to broaden my scope =)

5 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

The youngest leader of these teenage brats is 34.

I’ve seen 14 year olds say the things I’m mentioning

I still think that having Miller in the WH is more of a problem than teenagers shitposting. The latter might or might not grow out of it.

4 hours ago, CharonY said:

things went off topic a fair bit

See also basically any thread with Sohan

It seems to be the point

Then they came for the elected officials, but I am not an elected official....

members of Congress, mayors....

Mostly not killed --- yet, but Governor Newsom had better watch his back; all the Trump thugs are at large again.

And now the senator from California is joined by the NYC comptroller.

[ETA: posted before seeing Peterkin had also posted coverage)

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jun/17/brad-lander-arrested-new-york-city-comptroller

Masked federal agents just illegally arrested New York City’s elected Comptroller. Outrageous. The Trump Administration went after Brad Lander for asking this simple question: ‘Do you have a warrant?’

The US is not in the Fascism phase. In Marxist theory, Fascism has a precise definition.

When people talk about Fascism in the the 1920's and 1930's, they're talking specifically about the Guild State system that Mussolini created. Lenin predicted that Chauvinism would evolve into another form of Feudalism when capitalism entered a sustained period of decay. Decay specifically means that industrial technology stagnates and stops developing.

Industrial technology stopped developing in the 1890's, and as decay became more sustained and it became clear capitalism would collapse, Mussolini created Fascism by merging Feudal Guilds with the modern state and forced the workers to submit to Fascist Guilds.

These are the two main points to understand Fascism. Technological decay causes the capitalists to create a Feudal Guild State. The workers are regimented into the Guilds so they can't rise up against capitalism.

This is not the case in the modern era. Computing technology caused industrial technology to improve rapidly and capitalist decay ended. We're now in a dynamic period of Capitalism.

But Dynamism and new technology causes the old capitalist classes and institutions to become inefficient and they eventually go bankrupt. This causes a new crisis among the Bourgeoisie and the petty Bourgeoisie.

Current capitalism isn't on the verge of collapse but the Bourgeoisie and Petty Bourgeoisie don't know how to deal with the current crisis. The Petty Bourgeoisie includes the masses of service workers who had their wages increase rapidly after COVID and are now at risk of wage cuts and job cuts because of inflation.

We're seeing a "soft" Bonapartism phase currently. Not a Fascism phase. Bonapartism is when each of the classes develop equal strength. The Bourgeoisie's power is diminished because of new technology and the Petty Bourgeoisie's power is strengthened because of new technology. The Proleterian workers themselves are extremely weak in the US, but service workers (petty Bourgeois workers) are much stronger.

Trump himself is part of the Upper Petty Bourgeoisie, not the main Bourgeoisie or the lower Petty Bourgeoisie. So all of his policies are a mixed attack on the Bourgeoisie and Lower Bourgeoisie. Deporting immigrants targets the petty Bourgeois businesses that use immigrant labor, attacking Democratic institutions is an attack on the Bourgeoisie, even attacking labor unions is an attack on the Petty Bourgeoisie because US unions are Petty Bourgeois organizations. Tariffs are an attack on foreign businesses but causes prices for US businesses to rise rapidly.

The goal is to force these groups to support his policies. He already attempted a coup a few years ago and it failed. So it's clear he doesn't have the power to implement Fascism. We're currently seeing him attacking all classes hoping to win over wider support but it's gradually turning his own supporters away.

The main reason Fascism happened in many European countries was because WWI caused a massive crisis that devastated the main Bourgeoisie, then there was the Great Depression which did even more damage to the Bourgeoisie. This allowed both the workers and Petty Bourgeoisie to build strength and launch direct attacks on Bourgeois institutions. The inability of the workers to seize power allowed Fascism to win.

The current situation doesn't match that because the Bourgeoisie isn't devastated. They're in a period of crisis that can easily be overcome. The US workers also don't have any strong workers organizations. Most US labor unions are Petty Bourgeoisie organizations, and all US political parties are Bourgeois organizations. There is no organization that can take advantage of the current crisis to build up a strong workers movement.

When it comes to what role the workers will play, it needs to be understood that the masses of US workers are service workers, which means they are part of the lower petty Bourgeoisie. They will not fight against capitalism but they will fight against Trump if he attacks them directly. The goal should be to encourage the growth and strengthening of the petty Bourgeois service worker's organizations including armed militant organizations.

That's interesting, fitting this all into classical Marxist theory, but I think this thread concerns itself with a broader definition of fascism and is not seeking precise matches with historical instances. We're focused on examples like the OP, where you see people being dragged away by uniformed thugs because they are asking questions that are perfectly legal. This is understood to be a paver on the road to fascism.

20 hours ago, TheVat said:

That's interesting, fitting this all into classical Marxist theory, but I think this thread concerns itself with a broader definition of fascism and is not seeking precise matches with historical instances. We're focused on examples like the OP, where you see people being dragged away by uniformed thugs because they are asking questions that are perfectly legal. This is understood to be a paver on the road to fascism.

Indeed, it's not as if we ever learn from history, mostly bc the specific's don't quite match and therefore can be ignored, especially if there's money to be made...

On 6/17/2025 at 7:20 PM, Moon99 said:

The goal is to force these groups to support his policies. He already attempted a coup a few years ago and it failed.

Then. Much has happened in the meanwhile; he's in a far stronger position now. He's collected powerful technological and financial allies, stirred up all the dormant hatreds and fears, legitimized racism, sexism and militant Christianity, consolidated and expanded his political base, enabled violent crime, cultivated a fictitious personal image, undermined the electoral process, flouted conflict of interest rules and felony convictions, intimidated journalists, taken control of social media platforms and ignored constitutional constraints with impunity. He's been carrying out a systematic purge of government departments and federal courts.

He's also been quite openly using the threat of martial law from the day he took office, and intends to make that a permanent situation. Not precisely martial law, which would adhere military protocols, but the insurrection act, conducted by the president, which is what he's always wanted: absolute personal power.

This isn't just paving stones anymore: the USA is well and truly in it, whether this is fascism or not.