2 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

The Nazi regime was built on a unique convergence of deep-rooted antisemitism, economic collapse, a failed democracy (Weimar Republic), and the trauma of World War I—none of which map cleanly onto modern America.

There is nothing unique about any of those conditions. The United States had racism embedded in its DNA; the Civil War never really ended; nor did the Mexican-American war, in the minds of the southern states. American democracy was flawed from its inception and has been systematically corrupted for decades - yes, it's failed. A couple of ill-advised wars were lost, damaging American self-image, and many unsavoury alliances formed. The economy hasn't collapsed yet, but there is much anxiety linked to offshoring and automation, since regulation on business is declining and workers rights are eroding. Add the inflammation of extreme religious prejudice and misogyny, all of which factors, carefully cultivated over time, divided the nation so that there is no coherent information source or means of communication.

Hitler would have revelled in social media!!

3 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

Project 2025, as controversial and aggressive as some of its proposals may seem to critics, remains—at least presently—a policy vision within a functioning constitutional democracy, not a coup or totalitarian blueprint.

😂 🤣

3 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

It dilutes the specificity of Nazism—the systematic, racially-driven genocide of millions

That's an interesting observation, 'racially-driven'. Have you ever wondered how so many German Jews became successful professionals, academics and businessmen before Hitler came to power. Where was all this hate in 1930? Why didn't previous administrations get driven by it? Of course, it's not specific and it wasn't 'racially-driven'. There was prejudice - there always is, and the haters always welcome a champion. The demonization of minorities is invariably a ploy to disguise a larger agenda: unlimited power. People so easily go along with persecution of people they don't approve of. Start with the Black and Hispanic immigrants (and btw, don't ask how their native governments were corrupted); go on to persecute the gender-nonconformists, disable the women, target other religions.... there is no shortage of scapegoats.

3 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

Nazi Germany systematically carried out industrial-scale genocide, including the Holocaust, and pursued a program of violent expansionism, racial supremacy, and totalitarian control unlike anything in modern Western democracies. Comparing this to Trumps policies are, to some extent, extreme.

Change the channel; you might learn something.

2 hours ago, swansont said:

violent expansion: see threats made to take Greenland and the Panama canal.

Seems we [Canada] are next on the agenda, so I have cause for concern. We're a bigger challenge than Gaza (it'll be uninhabited soon, thanks to a staunch US ally with similar ambitions - a walkover) and Greenland (where the US already has a military foothold). The economies of Panama and Canada may not be quite so easy to destroy, and the US military might have some qualms about invading - but I can't say I have confidence in those safeguards. Any day now, he'll lose his rag over the drop in tourism, and who knows ?

17 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

US military might have some qualms about invading

I just had a hilarious vision of Trump, bare-chested, wearing a slouch hat, brandishing a saber, charging up a hill on horseback.

Just now, Sohan Lalwani said:

Just now, studiot said:

Perhaps you have different history books in the US ?

You certainly missed important elements in your summary.

That’s why I put “map cleanly,” I’m acknowledging their existence in America, but it was never whole heartedly supported by the American public in the same fashion it was in Nazi germany

Actually you said none of which map cleanly so I got your meaning thank you that modern America and prewar Nazi Germany are not the same.

But then again I said "history books" .

Modern America is not History but the rise if Nazi Germany is so you completely missed my point and addressed something else.

The important points I mentioned concern that rise, which is how they are connected to history.

One of which is the training and military development they Germany received, before WW II , supporting the rise of another fascist dictator in Spain.

4 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

I recommend everyone here watching a movie called “Come and See,” it perfectly details the Nazis from the perspective of a wannabe Soviet Partisan. Please, after, compare this to trump post watching.

I do want to give a warning before hand, I strongly recommend looking the film up before viewing.

in the scenario you wish to watch it here is the link to the movie on YouTube: https://youtu.be/zjIiApN6cfg?si=ihNk-MqJq-AwKDUj

I was an art-house film projectionist who actually screened the 35mm prints of ‘Come And See’ by Elem Klimov on its UK release in 1986 - and yes it is horrific. The principal changeover point at the e/o reel 3 (where the projectionist has to watch for the c/o dots) coincides with the scene where a Nazi German Einsatzgruppen rounds up the population of a village into a church and burns them all alive by setting fire to it - almost unwatchable, (and I had to watch it many times).

But there is one significant problem with your line of argument - the events depicted in that film take place in June 1941 at the inception of Operation Barbarossa, when Hitler broke the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, and sent a massive invasion force into Byelorussia (where the film is set) and on towards  Moscow.

Everyone else in this thread however seems to be discussing what happened inside Germany itself eight years earlier in 1933 !  i.e the process by which Hitler once elected as Chancellor, promptly subverted and overthrew the democratic institutions of the Weimar Republic by neutralising the powers of the executive and the judiciary,  and then installed himself in perpetuity as a Fūhrer or fascist dictator.

4 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

The Nazi regime was built on a unique convergence of deep-rooted antisemitism, economic collapse, a failed democracy (Weimar Republic), and the trauma of World War I—none of which map cleanly onto modern America.

These points don't even map cleanly to the rise of the NSDAP. Note that for example the direst economic challenge in the Weimar republic was the hyperinflation of 1923, just shortly after WWI. How strong was the NSDAP then? They tried to initiate the famous beer hall putsch, which famously failed (Jan 6 anyone?). After release the NSDAP was banned for a while and Weimar stabilized economically. When the Great Depression hit Germany, how successful was the NSDAP in the elections in 1930? They got 2.6%. If they haven't been supported and propped up but by the monarchists, they likely would have gone under. Instead what happened was (among other things) a coalition of right-wing conservatives, industrialists and related folks decided to use Hitler to make inroads within the working class ("I love the uneducated") under the wrong assumption that Hitler could be easily controlled (really, no parallels here, right?).

Also notably, Hitler's rise to power happened during phases of economic stabilization. While the economic instability and the resulting unrest will have made the populace more responsive to extremist parties, it does not cleanly line up with the power grabs of the NSDAP. More recent research also on Trump increasingly shows that economic anxiety is a contributor, but not a main driver for such election models.

5 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

Project 2025, as controversial and aggressive as some of its proposals may seem to critics, remains—at least presently—a policy vision within a functioning constitutional democracy, not a coup or totalitarian blueprint. Unlike Weimar Germany, the U.S. still has institutional checks and balances, independent courts (including some that have ruled against Trump), a vibrant free press, competitive elections, and robust civil society resistance.

As Swansont mentioned, the US is basically in a constitutional crisis where checks and balances are not working (see congress) or simply ignored. The Weimar Republic also had those, and they were also disabled (eventually). On the note of vibrant free press, well that has turned into a partisan issue, hasn't it.

It is not a hyperbole to say that Trump's government is unlawfully sending unnamed folks into foreign torture prisons. Assuming that this is the worst of it is misplaced optimism.

4 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

The Nazi regime was built on a unique convergence of deep-rooted antisemitism, economic collapse, a failed democracy (Weimar Republic), and the trauma of World War I—none of which map cleanly onto modern America.

These points don't even map cleanly to the rise of the NSDAP. Note that for example the direst economic challenge in the Weimar republic was the hyperinflation of 1923, just shortly after WWI. How strong was the NSDAP then? They tried to initiate the famous beer hall putsch, which famously failed (Jan 6 anyone?). After release the NSDAP was banned for a while and Weimar stabilized economically. When the Great Depression hit Germany, how successful was the NSDAP in the elections in 1930? They got 2.6%. If they haven't been supported and propped up but by the monarchists, they likely would have gone under. Instead what happened was (among other things) a coalition of right-wing conservatives, industrialists and related folks decided to use Hitler to make inroads within the working class ("I love the uneducated") under the wrong assumption that Hitler could be easily controlled (really, no parallels here, right?).

Also notably, Hitler's rise to power happened during phases of economic stabilization. While the economic instability and the resulting unrest will have made the populace more responsive to extremist parties, it does not cleanly line up with the power grabs of the NSDAP. More recent research also on Trump increasingly shows that economic anxiety is a contributor, but not a main driver for such election models.

5 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

Project 2025, as controversial and aggressive as some of its proposals may seem to critics, remains—at least presently—a policy vision within a functioning constitutional democracy, not a coup or totalitarian blueprint. Unlike Weimar Germany, the U.S. still has institutional checks and balances, independent courts (including some that have ruled against Trump), a vibrant free press, competitive elections, and robust civil society resistance.

As Swansont mentioned, the US is basically in a constitutional crisis where checks and balances are not working (see congress) or simply ignored. The Weimar Republic also had those, and they were also disabled (eventually). On the note of vibrant free press, well that has turned into a partisan issue, hasn't it.

It is not a hyperbole to say that Trump's government is unlawfully sending unnamed folks into foreign torture prisons. Assuming that this is the worst of it is misplaced optimism.

1 hour ago, toucana said:

Everyone else in this thread however seems to be discussing what happened inside Germany itself eight years earlier in 1933 !  i.e the process by which Hitler once elected as Chancellor, promptly subverted and overthrew the democratic institutions of the Weimar Republic by neutralising the powers of the executive and the judiciary,  and then installed himself in perpetuity as a Fūhrer or fascist dictator.

Or even earlier, the pathway to power, which took him a bit longer than Trump. One should also keep in mind that there are others, like e.g. Miller and Bannon, who would love to have the Nazi time back. There is reason why the far right is making so many efforts to diminish the atrocities of the Nazis. And just listen to what Trump said the Merz during his visit regarding D-Day.

32 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Or even earlier, the pathway to power, which took him a bit longer than Trump.

Even with commercial television and social media, Trump took 38 years to get the presidency (from the first time I recall his mentioning it). Even so, the institutions and most people's minds were still working then; it took another 8 years to unravel America sufficiently to put him in power. But I have to give him credit for not wasting any time in his second term.

I can’t see what everyone else is quoting so it’s very confusing for myself, so I will respond to everyone generally.

I understand why people reach for strong historical comparisons when they see democracy under strain. I get why some look at Donald Trump, Project 2025, or rising authoritarianism and feel echoes of something dark from history. But I want to be clear about where I stand: I think comparing the current political situation in the United States to Nazi Germany is not only factually wrong, it also risks weakening our ability to confront real threats.

Nazi Germany did not come out of nowhere. It was born from a very specific and violent convergence of events: deep and widespread antisemitism, the national trauma after World War I, the economic devastation caused by the Treaty of Versailles, and a failed experiment in democracy called the Weimar Republic. These were not vague conditions. They were concrete realities that shaped the environment in which Hitler rose.

It is important to remember that even in the worst moment of economic crisis—the hyperinflation of 1923—the Nazi Party was still a fringe movement. Their infamous Beer Hall Putsch failed, and Hitler ended up in prison. It was not until years later, after the Great Depression hit Germany hard and millions were out of work, that the Nazis gained momentum. But even then, they did not take power through overwhelming popular support. In the 1930 elections, they barely received a few percent of the vote.

The truth is, Hitler came to power because conservative elites and industrialists thought they could use him. They wanted to harness his appeal to the working class and crush the left. They assumed he could be controlled. That assumption was deadly. Within months of being appointed chancellor in 1933, Hitler had used the Reichstag Fire to justify emergency powers, suspended civil liberties, crushed all political opposition, and consolidated a full dictatorship.

This kind of total seizure of power has no real parallel in today’s United States. Yes, Trump has flirted with authoritarian language. Yes, Project 2025 contains proposals that would dramatically expand presidential power and reduce the independence of federal agencies. I do not dismiss these concerns. I think they deserve close attention. But none of this is happening outside the framework of a functioning constitutional system.

Our courts still function. State-level institutions held the line against efforts to overturn the 2020 election. The media is still alive, even if polarized. Investigations into Trump and his allies have not been blocked by a totalitarian system. Civil society—activists, watchdogs, journalists, and citizens—is still active and resisting. I do not believe we are living in a country that has collapsed into dictatorship.

Some people say that checks and balances are no longer working in America. I agree that they are under stress. But I also see judges ruling against powerful interests, reporters breaking major stories, and people across the country organizing to defend democracy. None of this is happening in secret. And none of it is being erased or punished the way it would be in a fascist regime.

Then there is the matter of ideology. Nazi Germany was built on an explicit belief in racial hierarchy and extermination. Jews, Roma, Slavs, the disabled, and others were not just marginalized—they were targeted for annihilation. The Holocaust was not a side effect of the regime. It was its core policy. I do not see anything close to that level of systemic and deliberate violence in America today.

People sometimes bring up figures like Stephen Miller or Steve Bannon and claim they want to recreate Nazi-style rule. I think they promote dangerous and illiberal ideas, but equating them with architects of genocide is a stretch I am not willing to make unless there is clear evidence. And no, I do not believe Trump is Hitler. Not even close.

If anything, I worry that by constantly making comparisons to the Nazis, we actually numb ourselves to what real authoritarianism looks like. If everything is fascism, then nothing is. The word loses meaning. The memory of actual victims gets diluted. And we miss the opportunity to confront today’s threats for what they really are.

Project 2025 should absolutely be challenged. If it aims to concentrate executive power, dismantle environmental protections, weaken judicial independence, or undermine voting rights, then it needs to be exposed and resisted. But I want to resist it by being accurate, not by reaching for the scariest historical analogy available.

We have real tools to defend our democracy—laws, institutions, organizing, journalism, and the truth. I want us to use those tools as wisely and precisely as possible. I believe that if we want to win this fight, we need to take history seriously—not just emotionally, but factually. The story of Nazi Germany should be a warning. But it should also teach us that not every disturbing political movement is the same.

1 hour ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

We have real tools to defend our democracy—laws, institutions, organizing, journalism, and the truth.

That's soooo last century!

13 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

That's soooo last century!

😑

I do want to clarify to everyone, I don’t support trump at all nor do I with Harris, I am neutral

2 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Even with commercial television and social media, Trump took 38 years to get the presidency (from the first time I recall his mentioning it). Even so, the institutions and most people's minds were still working then; it took another 8 years to unravel America sufficiently to put him in power. But I have to give him credit for not wasting any time in his second term.

I started counting when he actually entered the arena as politician.

3 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I started counting when he actually entered the arena as politician.

I didn't count him in 1982 when he first floated the idea in an interview. Only later did I learn that he wanted to do The Apprentice to acquire a widely recognized presence (the money didn't hurt, either), personifying success, power and leadership. It took him a while after that to worm his way into politics. Interesting career of party-hopping, celebrity appearances, networking and self-promotion books, finally latching onto the Tea Party's rancorous grievancism and Nixon's divisive strategy. The least well educated portion of the population was trapped under the media umbrella of Murdoch. The GOP was already pretty much deboned by Reagan, Nordquist, et al; there was a moral vacuum to fill with populist hot air, and here was a guy addicted to public attention, willing to say anything people would applaud, primed and ready to take over the world.

He was too slow: won't live to consolidate his rule and wear the emperor's robes.

Edited June 15Jun 15 by Peterkin

5 hours ago, toucana said:

I was an art-house film projectionist who actually screened the 35mm prints of ‘Come And See’ by Elem Klimov on its UK release in 1986 - and yes it is horrific. The principal changeover point at the e/o reel 3 (where the projectionist has to watch for the c/o dots) coincides with the scene where a Nazi German Einsatzgruppen rounds up the population of a village into a church and burns them all alive by setting fire to it - almost unwatchable, (and I had to watch it many times).

Significant props to you, it does indeed take “guts of steel” to rewatch it. To say Kravchenko did a phenomenal job is a gross understatement.

What makes the film special, from my point of view is when Glasha comes out in a disheveled state staring at the camera, I feel that if I were to watch it with a random group of people who spoke entirely different languages, we would all come to the same conclusion of what happened universally, that unifying “feeling” is was speaks volumes

4 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

😑

I do want to clarify to everyone, I don’t support trump at all nor do I with Harris, I am neutral

Shortly after the 2000  GWB v. Al Gore US presidential election, as the result hung upon endless recounts in Florida, and SCOTUS arguments about  ‘hanging chads’ and  ‘butterfly ballots’ - one sardonic bumper-sticker said “ DON’T BLAME ME - I VOTED FOR BOTH OF THEM !”

Being ‘neutral’ isn’t an option when democracy itself is at stake - not if you value the freedoms that democracy confers. There was ample warning as to exactly who and what Trump was, and what sort of policies he would pursue if returned to office.

The people who chose to stay at home, or closed their eyes and voted for Trump because they persuaded themselves they were voting for cheaper eggs, ‘’Palestine”, “Christian values” or "un-woke bathrooms" made a fully informed choice to vote for fascism, racism and Nazism  IMHO.

The killings in Minnesota are the latest chilling example of the “stochastic terrorism” inspired by Trump and his followers that many commentators warned of back in 2017 after the Charlottesville car attack in Virginia during Trump’s first term.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlottesville_car_attack

There is simply no excuse for not being aware of this - FAFO.

Edited June 15Jun 15 by toucana
edited redundant - " in 2017" final para.

Chris Hedges published several essays on this topic. The Rule of Idiots is very much reading.

"Donald Trump, and the sycophantic buffoons in his administration, are updated versions of the reigns of the Roman emperor Nero, who allocated vast state expenditures to attain magical powers; the Chinese emperor Qin Shi Huang, who funded repeated expeditions to a mythical island of immortals to bring back a potion that would give him eternal life; and a feckless Tsarist court that sat around reading tarot cards and attending séances as Russia was decimated by a war that consumed over two million lives and revolution brewed in the streets.

"In “Hitler and the Germans,” the political philosopher Eric Voegelin dismisses the idea that Hitler — gifted in oratory and political opportunism, but poorly educated and vulgar — mesmerized and seduced the German people. The Germans, he writes, supported Hitler and the “grotesque, marginal figures,” surrounding him because he embodied the pathologies of a diseased society, one beset by economic collapse and hopelessness. Voegelin defines stupidity as a “loss of reality.” The loss of reality means a “stupid” person cannot “rightly orient his action in the world, in which he lives.” The demagogue, who is always an idiote, is not a freak or social mutation. The demagogue expresses the society’s zeitgeist, its collective departure from a rational world of verifiable fact."

6 hours ago, toucana said:

Being ‘neutral’ isn’t an option when democracy itself is at stake - not if you value the freedoms that democracy confers.

In fact, neutrality becomes compliance and implicit support when faced with circumstances like these. One may as well say they’re neutral on child molestation or the torture of entire communities. Failure to pushback and defend the better path becomes equivalent to support and acceptance of the worse one.

1 hour ago, iNow said:

In fact, neutrality becomes compliance and implicit support when faced with circumstances like these. One may as well say they’re neutral on child molestation or the torture of entire communities. Failure to pushback and defend the better path becomes equivalent to support and acceptance of the worse one.

What so many people did - as humans usually do - was to deny the danger until it was too late. The signs were there all along, large and lit like a T*R*U*M*P casino, and they clung to the maverick businessman image he so carefully faked up. They wanted to believe that, though some of his policies might be questionable, any excesses would be curbed by the law, and in the meantime he would save them from the job-thieving aliens, the terrorist Muslims, the lunatic extreme socialists who want to abolish Christmas and take away their guns... and from the women, whom he would forcibly protect.

They're upset now, seeing the excesses no court could prevent, but they still believe that the system is robust enough to be repaired. I sincerely hope that belief is not as ill-founded as their previous faith.

1 hour ago, iNow said:

In fact, neutrality becomes compliance and implicit support when faced with circumstances like these. One may as well say they’re neutral on child molestation or the torture of entire communities.

How the hell is this relevant to political discussion?

16 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

I thought we were making a comparison to Nazi Germany and America?

I believe that was your extrapolation. I just said nazi regime.

16 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

Also, was America not coming out of its most major depression at the time? What happens when radical times arise? Radical politicians. What happens when radical politicians when they influence a very desperate public? Radicalism.

Sure. And we just emerged from the great recession which was followed by the large impact of COVID.

16 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

That is one of his policies I wholeheartedly disagree with, but from what I know he is significantly cutting funding, not downright shutting down institutions, correct me if I am wrong please.

When you significantly cut food or oxygen it takes time for the body to die. Trump has been in office for less than five months. Looking at what Germany did over a period of years isn’t a proper comparison. You have to look at the trajectory, and not assume he’ll stop, because when has he ever?

7 hours ago, toucana said:

Shortly after the 2000  GWB v. Al Gore US presidential election, as the result hung upon endless recounts in Florida, and SCOTUS arguments about  ‘hanging chads’ and  ‘butterfly ballots’ - one sardonic bumper-sticker said “ DON’T BLAME ME - I VOTED FOR BOTH OF THEM !”

Being ‘neutral’ isn’t an option when democracy itself is at stake - not if you value the freedoms that democracy confers. There was ample warning as to exactly who and what Trump was, and what sort of policies he would pursue if returned to office.

The people who chose to stay at home, or closed their eyes and voted for Trump because they persuaded themselves they were voting for cheaper eggs, ‘’Palestine”, “Christian values” or "un-woke bathrooms" made a fully informed choice to vote for fascism, racism and Nazism  IMHO.

The killings in Minnesota are the latest chilling example of the “stochastic terrorism” inspired by Trump and his followers that many commentators warned of back in 2017 after the Charlottesville car attack in Virginia during Trump’s first term.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlottesville_car_attack

There is simply no excuse for not being aware of this - FAFO.

I disagree strongly with some of Trump and Harris’s policies, being neutral is the more logical stance as leaning to the “better” side can have its own significant faults, take the issue in the Gaza Strip for example. Choosing one side over the expense of the other is quite stupid especially without analyzing the entire situation with significant nuance.

Most conservative Christian’s support Israel the majority of the time, hasn’t trump? How would anyone voting for him be voting for the security of Palestine? Would Harris not be the better option regarding the issue when she explicitly stated that she wants the Palestinians to have their own independent homeland?

On “unwoke bathrooms” I honestly could care less, what people do with their identity is none of my damn business

39 minutes ago, swansont said:

And we just emerged from the great recession which was followed by the large impact of COVID.

And then inflation…

40 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

How the hell is this relevant to political discussion?

I can explain it for you but I can’t understand it for you. Thanks for the neg

Edited June 15Jun 15 by iNow

1 minute ago, iNow said:

I can explain it for you but I can’t understand it for you. Thanks for the neg

Holy cornball just say you want it removed and I’ll remove it.

18 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

Holy cornball just say you want it removed and I’ll remove it.

But futuristically speaking, please don’t go jumping from politicians to child molesters for analogies

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

What so many people did - as humans usually do - was to deny the danger until it was too late. The signs were there all along, large and lit like a T*R*U*M*P casino, and they clung to the maverick businessman image he so carefully faked up. They wanted to believe that, though some of his policies might be questionable, any excesses would be curbed by the law, and in the meantime he would save them from the job-thieving aliens, the terrorist Muslims, the lunatic extreme socialists who want to abolish Christmas and take away their guns... and from the women, whom he would forcibly protect.

They're upset now, seeing the excesses no court could prevent, but they still believe that the system is robust enough to be repaired. I sincerely hope that belief is not as ill-founded as their previous faith.

Yep. You can go back and read similar contemporary comments on the NSDAP in the early 30s. And it was too late by 33. I think I may have said something during Trump1 that it was a test of the resilience of the mechanisms of the US constitution and its checks and balances and that it has mostly held up. Project 2025 has specifically found ways to undermine these checks and balances, not unlike the use of Article 48 by the NSDAP.

1 hour ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

please don’t go jumping from politicians to child molesters for analogies

How about instead you quit clutching your pearls

1 hour ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

Most conservative Christian’s support Israel the majority of the time, hasn’t trump? How would anyone voting for him be voting for the security of Palestine? Would Harris not be the better option regarding the issue when she explicitly stated that she wants the Palestinians to have their own independent homeland?

Did you really miss the entire discussion about role of the muslim activists in Dearborn Michigan who campaigned ferociously for Donald Trump in the 2024  presidential election on an “Abandon Harris” ticket ? They apparently did so because they blamed Harris for 'collusion', they thought Trump would end the Gaza conflict more quickly, and believed that conservative Republican values’ were somehow closer to those of Islam - and they effectively delivered the entire swing state of Michigan to Trump by doing so

We had an entire thread called “The Gaza Riviera” in this sub-forum just a couple of months ago in February which went into this in some detail. This was the news story in the Jewish Chronicle which documented that story:

https://www.thejc.com/news/usa/trump-voting-muslim-leaders-in-us-disappointed-by-his-pro-israel-cabinet-choices-fe0x4jb

and here is what I wrote about it in that thread:

Muslim leaders like Abed Hammoud who lives in Dearborn (the largest majority Arab American city in the US) lobbied ferociously against Kamala Harris in the Presidential election last November, and successfully delivered the key swing state of Michigan which had previously been a Democratic stronghold to Donald Trump with 47% of the vote - compared with 28% for Harris and 22% for Jill Stein the Green Party candidate.

These same muslim leaders were subsequently left aghast when Trump nominated Mike Huckabee the former Governor of Arkansas  as Ambassador to Israel - a man who once said  “there’s really no such thing as a Palestinian”. Rather plaintively, some muslim leaders in Dearborn have recently said “President Trump, remember that you have a contract with us!”. Seems like someone forgot to remind them that Trump always stiffs his contractors.

I get the impression that you don't really follow the news in much detail.

Just now, toucana said:

I get the impression that you don't really follow the news in much detail.

Which apparently is par of the course among folks who were undecided or neutral regarding Trump.

9 minutes ago, iNow said:

How about instead you quit clutching your pearls

Dawg what are you on about now

4 minutes ago, toucana said:

Did you really miss the entire discussion about role of the muslim activists in Dearborn Michigan who campaigned ferociously for Donald Trump in the 2024  presidential election on an “Abandon Harris” ticket ? They apparently did so because they blamed Harris for 'collusion', they thought Trump would end the Gaza conflict more quickly, and believed that conservative Republican values’ were somehow closer to those of Islam - and they effectively delivered the entire swing state of Michigan to Trump by doing so

We had an entire thread called “The Gaza Riviera” in this sub-forum just a couple of months ago in February which went into this in some detail. This was the news story in the Jewish Chronicle which documented that story:

https://www.thejc.com/news/usa/trump-voting-muslim-leaders-in-us-disappointed-by-his-pro-israel-cabinet-choices-fe0x4jb

and here is what I wrote about it in that thread:

I get the impression that you don't really follow the news in much detail.

6 minutes ago, toucana said:

Did you really miss the entire discussion about role of the muslim activists in Dearborn Michigan who campaigned ferociously for Donald Trump in the 2024  presidential election on an “Abandon Harris” ticket ? They apparently did so because they blamed Harris for 'collusion', they thought Trump would end the Gaza conflict more quickly, and believed that conservative Republican values’ were somehow closer to those of Islam - and they effectively delivered the entire swing state of Michigan to Trump by doing so

We had an entire thread called “The Gaza Riviera” in this sub-forum just a couple of months ago in February which went into this in some detail. This was the news story in the Jewish Chronicle which documented that story:

https://www.thejc.com/news/usa/trump-voting-muslim-leaders-in-us-disappointed-by-his-pro-israel-cabinet-choices-fe0x4jb

and here is what I wrote about it in that thread:

I get the impression that you don't really follow the news in much detail.

Look, just because some Muslim activists in Dearborn were angry at Harris does not mean Muslims as a whole supported Trump. Most Muslim Americans have voted Democrat for years and still do. What happened in Michigan was not Muslims suddenly loving conservative values. It was frustration. People were angry about Gaza. Some stayed home, some voted third party, and a few made a protest vote for Trump. That is not the same thing as thinking Trump was the better option for Palestine.

And let’s be honest. Trump’s record on this is crystal clear. He moved the US embassy to Jerusalem, cut off aid to Palestinians, and openly backed Netanyahu. The guy even picked Mike Huckabee as ambassador to Israel, someone who once said Palestinians do not even exist. So if anyone thought Trump would help end the conflict or care about Palestinian lives, they were fooling themselves.

Kamala Harris might not have done enough, and criticism of her is valid. But she has at least said Palestinians deserve a homeland. That is already more than Trump ever offered. So no, voting for Trump is not voting for the security or freedom of Palestine. It is the opposite. It is a vote for the same hardline policies that have crushed any chance at peace.

6 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Which apparently is par of the course among folks who were undecided or neutral regarding Trump.

I choose to be neutral as to avoid usage of digital footprint against me and also it’s generally the most logical path unless defaced with a blatantly racist or poor politician

13 minutes ago, toucana said:

I get the impression that you don't really follow the news in much detail.

I follow it decently enough, but on different topics, comparative to you on this topic I would be poor