harlock Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 -the heat of wood burning in a fireplace comes from the sun because of Lavoisier quote('nothing is created and nothing is destroyed but everything is transformed')... Is it true? If it's true it means that a tree removes heat from the environment as it grows, therefore the difference in the quantity of trees (wood...) means that there is more solar heat in the environment compared to centuries ago and it can justify global warming regardless of the presence or absence of CO2... Opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exchemist Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) 8 hours ago, harlock said: -the heat of wood burning in a fireplace comes from the sun because of Lavoisier quote('nothing is created and nothing is destroyed but everything is transformed')... Is it true? If it's true it means that a tree removes heat from the environment as it grows, therefore the difference in the quantity of trees (wood...) means that there is more solar heat in the environment compared to centuries ago and it can justify global warming regardless of the presence or absence of CO2... Opinions? As always, context is critical to the understanding of quotations. Lavoisier was talking of matter not being created or destroyed, in the course of chemical change. You seem to be trying to apply this saying inappropriately, to heat, which is not matter, but a form of energy. Energy is a property of physical systems that is also conserved, i.e. neither created nor destroyed, though this principle was unknown in Lavoisier's time. However energy can and does change from one form to another in the course of physical processes. In the case of the growth of trees, there is chemical potential energy (which is not heat) stored in the molecules that make them up. That chemical energy does not come from heat but from the energy of sunlight, which is captured by the tree in photosynthesis. The Earth is not a closed system, where energy is concerned. It receives energy from sunlight all the time and radiates heat off into space. These two should be in balance. Climate change results when the rate of radiation into space is reduced a bit, due to the atmosphere slowing down the rate of escape of heat. It is caused by the absorption of infra red radiation (heat radiation) by gases and vapours such as water, carbon dioxide and methane. Edited March 27 by exchemist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harlock Posted March 31 Author Share Posted March 31 Why politicians only talk about CO2? But, what if they don't believe in the Lavoisier quote(atheism...)! -3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exchemist Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 (edited) 5 hours ago, harlock said: Why politicians only talk about CO2? But, what if they don't believe in the Lavoisier quote(atheism...)! I explained in my previous reply why this does not work as you seem to think it does. You seem to have ignored this. The answer to your question is that policy makers do not share your silly ideas. Edited March 31 by exchemist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensei Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 (edited) On 3/27/2024 at 3:46 AM, harlock said: If it's true it means that a tree removes heat from the environment as it grows, No. Not exactly. Organisms that use photosynthesis to create food absorb photons in certain visible ranges and use them to break down CO2 and H2O molecules to produce the compounds they require. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autotroph Typically, energy flows from the source, which has a higher temperature, to the body, which has a lower temperature. The human body temperature is about 36.6 C, and the ambient temperature is typically lower, so we warm the environment. Green parts of the plants, which are designed to absorption of the photons (not green one range!), are absorbing photons, so they are not absorbed by something else. The absorbed photons (by whatever) are re-emitted at lower frequencies, such as infrared, and absorbed by something else, and the energy is retained on Earth. White rock reflects photons of visible light, while black rock absorbs photons of visible light. Some of them are re-emitted into space. In this way, the Earth can be seen in the range of infrared and other photons. On 3/27/2024 at 3:46 AM, harlock said: therefore the difference in the quantity of trees (wood...) means that there is more solar heat in the environment compared to centuries ago and it can justify global warming regardless of the presence or absence of CO2... Trees/plants absorb CO2 as they grow. CO2 absorbs photons. More CO2 in the atmosphere means more photons absorbed and more energy stored. 9 hours ago, harlock said: Why politicians only talk about CO2? They talk about CO2 because the more there is in the atmosphere, the more energy is stored on Earth, and the layman reads this as an increase in average temperature. Edited March 31 by Sensei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.C.MacSwell Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 As Exchemist has stated, we receive a certain amount of energy from the Sun, and give off pretty much the same amount into space, generally in balance though degraded, at a certain average temperature. That average temperature can change over time when the balance is not exact. If it goes up that's global warming and it's obviously a problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harlock Posted April 1 Author Share Posted April 1 (edited) 20 hours ago, Sensei said: No. Not exactly. Organisms that use photosynthesis to create food absorb photons in certain visible ranges and use them to break down CO2 and H2O molecules to produce the compounds they require. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autotroph Typically, energy flows from the source, which has a higher temperature, to the body, which has a lower temperature. The human body temperature is about 36.6 C, and the ambient temperature is typically lower, so we warm the environment. Green parts of the plants, which are designed to absorption of the photons (not green one range!), are absorbing photons, so they are not absorbed by something else. The absorbed photons (by whatever) are re-emitted at lower frequencies, such as infrared, and absorbed by something else, and the energy is retained on Earth. White rock reflects photons of visible light, while black rock absorbs photons of visible light. Some of them are re-emitted into space. In this way, the Earth can be seen in the range of infrared and other photons. Animals live on sun's energy through plant photosynthesis, all the energy they consume comes from solar energy. It means that all the solar energy that the animals(decomposers... also) used goes back to the environment (as you also say). The only 'solar fuel' of the plants that remains is trunk and branches, which store solar energy for millennia(removing it from the environment). So the difference in the amount of trees between centuries ago and today is that there is less solar energy in trunks and branches of trees. MAYBE the cycle of glaciations depends on it because there was an alternation between glaciers and forests... I say MAYBE because it's only an idea for now... Therefore neglecting this aspect is serious in the fight against global warming because we could grow more tree crops, recover agricultural residues for steam engines..., raise livestock in symbiosis with forests (goats. They feed on leaves and have the best milk), use palm oil as fuel ..., etc... Edited April 1 by harlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exchemist Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 1 hour ago, harlock said: Animals live on sun's energy through plant photosynthesis, all the energy they consume comes from solar energy. It means that all the solar energy that the animals(decomposers... also) used goes back to the environment (as you also say). The only 'solar fuel' of the plants that remains is trunk and branches, which store solar energy for millennia(removing it from the environment). So the difference in the amount of trees between centuries ago and today is that there is less solar energy in trunks and branches of trees. MAYBE the cycle of glaciations depends on it because there was an alternation between glaciers and forests... I say MAYBE because it's only an idea for now... Therefore neglecting this aspect is serious in the fight against global warming because we could grow more tree crops, recover agricultural residues for steam engines..., raise livestock in symbiosis with forests (goats. They feed on leaves and have the best milk), use palm oil as fuel ..., etc... Why don't you spend 10 minutes seeing what is already known about the subject, before you start pulling random ideas out of your arse? There is a theory of what factors are behind the cycles of glaciation already: see Milankovic Cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 4 hours ago, harlock said: Animals live on sun's energy through plant photosynthesis, all the energy they consume comes from solar energy. It means that all the solar energy that the animals(decomposers... also) used goes back to the environment (as you also say). The only 'solar fuel' of the plants that remains is trunk and branches, which store solar energy for millennia(removing it from the environment). So the difference in the amount of trees between centuries ago and today is that there is less solar energy You’re ignoring all the coal and oil that was created in the past from dead plants and animals, and stored over the course of millions of years. But that energy is but a fraction of what we get from the sun. Global warming is an issue of trapping too much of that energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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