Where to live (Hijack from Evaporative Coolers Vs A/C Cost Effectiveness)

[sethoflagos]

On 9/16/2023 at 3:49 PM, TheVat said:

In an attempt to understand a British definition of unbearable, I looked up average July daily high temperatures for Sheffield UK (it seemed sort of in the middle) and then the US plains town I lived in for most of my childhood.  The temps were 70 and 92, respectively.  

As you may imagine, pool halls or snooker halls without AC were as common as unicorns in Kansas.  😀

Lagos matches your Kansas July daily high pretty well 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Plus our humidity is higher. And yet I've grown habituated to it and can manage mainly without aircon albeit at the cost of an occasional outbreak of prickly heat (solution = cold showers). My pool hall (Tipsy Bar, Bodore Road, Ajah) has no aircon, but a two foot gap between the walls and the ceiling stop it from becoming too stifling. 

I can't help thinking that the OP is asking the wrong question. It assumes as a given that the OP has a right to enoy optimal comfort in a location where the ambient conditions are beyond his comfort zone. Relax that assumption and ask why the majority of the world's population (who manage to survive within the range of their own cimate variations without undue resource consumption) should bear the brunt of the OP's disproportionate demands for fossil fuels and fresh water. Should he not consider relocating to a location more in tune with his own particular physical requirements?

It's easy to pick on the southern end of California because it is such an ecological disaster zone for so many reasons, but one must question whether any of these most hostile high population density areas (eg northern end of the Persian Gulf that can reach 50⁰C near saturated in August-September) are worth maintaining as areas of human settlement. Better to put survival of the most before optimal comfort of the privileged I think.     

[TheVat]

It's a similar question to the coastal construction one.  Some places draw too many resources to render them viable.  And if people are forced by, political/economic boundaries to live in a hot place then architecture should adapt (like your high roofed Lagos pool hall) and not just rely on brute force AC.  Also, clothing styles should be in tune with local climate.  Traditional European business attire makes little sense in more tropical climes.  

[Sensei]

14 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

Should he not consider relocating to a location more in tune with his own particular physical requirements?

That's what some Africans and Mexicans are doing now..

They are moving to Europe and the United States because they are no longer in their comfort zone.

 

[Endy0816]

There's areas in the far North that were bad this year, with a climate change and El Nino tag team happening.

Keep trying to convince relatives to at least buy a portable unit for emergencies. I shudder to think what their grid looks like though for handling a sudden large AC load.

 

6 hours ago, TheVat said:

It's a similar question to the coastal construction one.  Some places draw too many resources to render them viable.  And if people are forced by, political/economic boundaries to live in a hot place then architecture should adapt (like your high roofed Lagos pool hall) and not just rely on brute force AC.  Also, clothing styles should be in tune with local climate.  Traditional European business attire makes little sense in more tropical climes.  

Storms ripping off roofs will be an issue in some areas.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Endy0816

[e jane aran]

On 9/22/2023 at 7:30 PM, sethoflagos said:

My pool hall (Tipsy Bar, Bodore Road, Ajah) has no aircon, but a two foot gap between the walls and the ceiling stop it from becoming too stifling.

So the pool hall's building is, essentially, double hulled? Interesting....

[sethoflagos]

On 9/23/2023 at 2:44 PM, TheVat said:

It's a similar question to the coastal construction one.  Some places draw too many resources to render them viable.  And if people are forced by, political/economic boundaries to live in a hot place then architecture should adapt (like your high roofed Lagos pool hall) and not just rely on brute force AC.  Also, clothing styles should be in tune with local climate.  Traditional European business attire makes little sense in more tropical climes.  

As regards having a major rethink on architecture and lifestyles, I couldn't agree more. There's nothing like committing some serious public money into upgrading the housing stock for giving a much needed boost to GDP. Maynard Keynes for the environment yay! (not totally a joke)

On 9/23/2023 at 9:06 PM, Endy0816 said:

Storms ripping off roofs will be an issue in some areas.

Our ancestors built stone vaulted rooves that could last a millenium and more. It's just a matter of raising the building codes to what is easily achievable by appropriate engineering. 

22 hours ago, e jane aran said:

So the pool hall's building is, essentially, double hulled? Interesting....

Razor wire topped security wall with a tented fabric roof. Standard Lagos approach.  

[sethoflagos]

Btw... Why has this hijack thread been shifted to the Politics forum rather than say Climate Science? Are these concerns now solely the province of the political left? I sincerely hope not. 

[TheVat]

I guess there are political aspects to it but I saw this going more in an engineering (in the broad meaning) direction, on how to adapt to regional temperature changes.  

For example, would it help to build homes below street level, like berm houses, for more efficient cooling.  I know some places, where the water table is high, or the soil is very hard, that would not likely be practical.  

[iNow]

14 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

Are these concerns now solely the province of the political left?

Best I can tell from comments like these, the politics are coming from you. Perhaps you're projecting?

[swansont]

14 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

Btw... Why has this hijack thread been shifted to the Politics forum rather than say Climate Science? Are these concerns now solely the province of the political left? I sincerely hope not. 

!

Moderator Note

Your post had nothing to do with the question posed by the OP in the other thread, thus it was a hijack; you tacitly admit to this by saying “I can't help thinking that the OP is asking the wrong question”

Your observations and commentary were political in nature, not based on climate science, so it landed here. There was no assessment of whether those comments were left- or right-leaning.

 

 

[sethoflagos]

8 hours ago, TheVat said:

I guess there are political aspects to it but I saw this going more in an engineering (in the broad meaning) direction, on how to adapt to regional temperature changes.

Pretty much as I saw it.

 

8 hours ago, TheVat said:

For example, would it help to build homes below street level, like berm houses, for more efficient cooling.  I know some places, where the water table is high, or the soil is very hard, that would not likely be practical. 

Hobbit holes!

Nice idea in a middle England bucolic nostalgia sort of way but a little too low density for dealing with the bulk of the population. Taking the original OP scenario of high ambient temperature, low humidity. It would be nice if we could make use of the general principles, but construct them above ground in multi-story medium to high density accommodation units each suitable for populations oto 10,000 individuals. Basically a version of a scaled up termite mound. Let's run with it a while.

Since hot, dry areas tend to have cool nights, natural convection can exhaust the internal heat of the structure (and critically, a large central water supply also) out through a central 'chimney' by (in principle) natural draught alone if you get the engineering right. During the day air inflow reverses (due to the reversal of thermal gradient) and is tempered by the high thermal inertia of the structure itself augmented by, say, underfloor cooling by the cooled water store, and further augmented by evaporative cooling which can also up the humidity into an appropriate comfort zone.    

In principle, temperatures within the structure will float between somewhat above the night time low and somewhat above the daytime wet bulb temperature without recourse to heat pumps at all. 

At least this is should be sufficient for people to exhaust their body heat without sweating like the proverbial christmas goat.

Where does the cooling water come from? Recycled effluent plus a structure of this scale has potential for economic condensate recovery via eg. gas/gas heat exchange etc.

In 'the best of all possible worlds', the community would not have individual cooking stoves, refrigerators, freezers etc, but centralised communal facilities that exhaust their waste heat directly outside of the structure (ie not overheating the living/working spaces).

It looks to have possibilities. If you don't mind the termite social model. But then they have had well over 100 million years of practice and seem to be doing okay..

 

 

 

[Endy0816]

14 hours ago, TheVat said:

I guess there are political aspects to it but I saw this going more in an engineering (in the broad meaning) direction, on how to adapt to regional temperature changes.  

For example, would it help to build homes below street level, like berm houses, for more efficient cooling.  I know some places, where the water table is high, or the soil is very hard, that would not likely be practical.  

Can build up soil around a structure to create a similar effect.

Disney's tunnels are an extreme example, though high end homes and hotels will do it too sometimes.

 

[TheVat]

7 hours ago, Endy0816 said:

Can build up soil around a structure to create a similar effect.

Disney's tunnels are an extreme example, though high end homes and hotels will do it too sometimes.

 

Yes, some berm house are made by building up soil rather than major excavation.  They're left open on the front but with soil built up everywhere else then stabilized with sod.  I was unfamiliar with Disney tunnels, our family was never into theme parks like that.  So I looked them up, learned that Walt saw a cowboy walking through Tomorrowland on his way to Frontierland and felt that messed up the guest experience.  Which led to the utilidor system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disney_utilidor_system

Sounds like the sort of places people take refuge in an apocalypse novel.  

12 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

In 'the best of all possible worlds', the community would not have individual cooking stoves, refrigerators, freezers etc, but centralised communal facilities that exhaust their waste heat directly outside of the structure (ie not overheating the living/working spaces).

Your termite mound sounds similar to the sci-fi concept of the arcology. 

I have reflected on the inefficiency of having stoves that release their heat into an air conditioned house, or fridges that also do that.  In the USA, the range hood is a rudimentary approach which vents some of the heat.  In the 19th century through the early 20th here, some homes had "summer kitchens" and a stove would be set up in an enclosed porch so that its heat wouldn't go into the home interior.  

[Peterkin]

14 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

t would be nice if we could make use of the general principles, but construct them above ground in multi-story medium to high density accommodation units each suitable for populations oto 10,000 individuals. Basically a version of a scaled up termite mound. Let's run with it a while.

You have a couple of problems there. The energy required to lift everything - all the materials in construction and then all the occupants and their supplies. The power source has to be constant, which is very difficult to ensure under present climate conditions, let alone those yet to come. It would also require superlative insulation, with so much surface area exposed to sun and blizzard. And the usual high-rise problems: how to escape if it's hit by a hurricane or earthquake or bomb.

The building materials themselves are a major consideration. Steel and concrete have ugly big ecological bootprints.

 

14 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

In 'the best of all possible worlds', the community would not have individual cooking stoves, refrigerators, freezers etc, but centralised communal facilities that exhaust their waste heat directly outside of the structure (ie not overheating the living/working spaces).

I quite like this part. I have a notion of repurposing some existing office towers to human habitations, including community food and recreation gardens on every third or so floor. But that leaves the other problems - energy, lifts and insulation - unsolved.

Much safer, and more efficient, though undesirable to claustrophobics, are underground cities.   

On the whole, I would prefer an Earthship house.

[sethoflagos]

2 hours ago, TheVat said:

Your termite mound sounds similar to the sci-fi concept of the arcology.

I was unaware of this body of work, so thanks for that. Googling, it seems that the sci-fi novels were inspired at least in part by practical concepts developed by architect Paolo Soleri, so no flux capacitors or time portals required. Just finance and willpower.

[Peterkin]

The idea is fairly old - no finance; just humanpower in a difficult climate. https://online.nmartmuseum.org/nmhistory/art-architecture/ancestral-pueblo-architecture/history-ancestral-pueblo-architecture.html

The revived version is less interesting.

[sethoflagos]

10 hours ago, Peterkin said:

You have a couple of problems there. The energy required to lift everything - all the materials in construction and then all the occupants and their supplies.

The technical/economic challenges and energy costs of heavy lifts to oto 1000 tonnes are trivial. This was demonstrated in the bronze age.

10 hours ago, Peterkin said:

The power source has to be constant, which is very difficult to ensure under present climate conditions, let alone those yet to come.

You lift when you have the relatively small amount of required power available (think counter balances). Non sequitur argument.

10 hours ago, Peterkin said:

It would also require superlative insulation, with so much surface area exposed to sun and blizzard.

Blizzards in southern California? And at the other extreme we have various reflective coating options to avoid absorptive overheating.

10 hours ago, Peterkin said:

And the usual high-rise problems: how to escape if it's hit by a hurricane or earthquake or bomb.

Design so escape is unnecessary.

10 hours ago, Peterkin said:

The building materials themselves are a major consideration. Steel and concrete have ugly big ecological bootprints.

Who mentioned steel and concrete? That's a strawman of your making.

We have thousands of these in Africa. The structure is ready built. Just mine out the living spaces using long established room and pillar mining methods. Extract the excavated stone as ashlar and use that to construct other 'termite mounds'. The pillars can be any dimension they need to be - 5 metres/10 metres diameter: whatever is necessary to withstand the imposed forces (earthquakes, hurricanes, bombs and even snow load(!)). It's just engineering.

9 hours ago, Peterkin said:

The idea is fairly old - no finance; just humanpower in a difficult climate.

Fail to see your point. Is it one of those 'not invented here' arguments. If so then I don't claim precedence over the termites. Or the Pueblo Indians for that matter.

9 hours ago, Peterkin said:

The revived version is less interesting.

And yet you feel inclined to post. At length. How ironic.

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, sethoflagos said:

The technical/economic challenges and energy costs of heavy lifts to oto 1000 tonnes are trivial. This was demonstrated in the bronze age.

Can you please demonstrate how bronze age technology works in modern elevators?

 

1 hour ago, sethoflagos said:

Blizzards in southern California? And at the other extreme we have various reflective coating options to avoid absorptive overheating.

I didn't realize the giant termite structure proposal was restricted to Southern California.  But, of course, we don't actually know what climatic changes Southern California may be facing in the next two or three decades. What is the monetary and ecological cost of these various coating options on the required scale?

1 hour ago, sethoflagos said:

Who mentioned steel and concrete? That's a strawman of your making.

Sorry. You hadn't mentioned hollowing out rocks. Who needs daylight anyway, right? And who wouldn't appreciate a 4x4' pillar in their bedroom? Are there lots of these big rocks in Southern California that nobody owns or will you bring them over from Africa?

1 hour ago, sethoflagos said:

Fail to see your point.

That's all right, it wasn't important. Just interesting, I thought, that people a long time ago faced similar problems and came up with solutions that can still be useful today.

1 hour ago, sethoflagos said:

11 hours ago, Peterkin said:

The revived version is less interesting.

And yet you feel inclined to post. At length. How ironic.

I could have gone on longer, but my interest flagged. Judge for yourself.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Peterkin

[TheVat]

10 hours ago, Peterkin said:

didn't realize the giant termite structure proposal was restricted to Southern California.  But, of course, we don't actually know what climatic changes Southern California may be facing in the next two or three decades.

It may help to know this thread spun off from one about efficient cooling in a hot climate, spec. SoCal.  So the chat was sort of focused on the hot places that are now heading towards uninhabitable for humans.

10 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Sorry. You hadn't mentioned hollowing out rocks. Who needs daylight anyway, right? And who wouldn't appreciate a 4x4' pillar in their bedroom? Are there lots of these big rocks in Southern California that nobody owns or will you bring them over from Africa?

The thread is just developing ideas, and that's one of them.  I would imagine each idea which used a subterranean or rock-embedded approach would have to find ways to bring in natural light.  Light tubes would be one, park areas carved into surface alcoves another.  There are many ways to skin a cat.*

* a figure of speech our cats find disgusting 

10 hours ago, Peterkin said:

That's all right, it wasn't important. Just interesting, I thought, that people a long time ago faced similar problems and came up with solutions that can still be useful today.

That was interesting.  And a reminder that thick temperature moderating walls can be built with low tech and local earthen materials.  I'd love to see a return to some form of this in areas of the US Southwest.

[Peterkin]

2 hours ago, TheVat said:

That was interesting.  And a reminder that thick temperature moderating walls can be built with low tech and local earthen materials.  I'd love to see a return to some form of this in areas of the US Southwest.

Adobe or some form of cob construction has been used in many parts of the world for millennia. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/why-these-west-african-architects-choose-mud-over-concrete https://regenerativeskills.com/articles-1-2016-5-24-cob-getting-to-know-one-of-constructions-most-ancient-and-versatile-materials/   https://thefifthestate.com.au/innovation/materials/new-meets-old-cob-houses-enter-the-twenty-first-century/ in hot and cold climates, as its insulating properties are equally effective against both extremes. It's a whole lot more cost-effective than drilling rock and allows for more configurations as well as more functional interior spaces.  

2 hours ago, TheVat said:

I'd love to see a return to some form of this in areas of the US Southwest.

It's happening.

 

 

2 hours ago, TheVat said:

It may help to know this thread spun off from one about efficient cooling in a hot climate, spec. SoCal.  So the chat was sort of focused on the hot places that are now heading towards uninhabitable for humans.

Well, a big rock would be earthquake proof, so long as it wasn't a seaside cliff, but they are hard to move from inland, so the people would need super fast transport tunnels to get to a city. Unless their work space was in their home. You know there are already plenty of existing and abandoned mines where all the blasting has been done already. I wouldn't want to live in one - especially near the San Andreas Fault, but it's hot and growing hotter by the year in New Mexico, Nevada and Arizona, too, where people might not be very keen on having monumental rock formations destroyed.  

Edited September 27, 2023 by Peterkin

[sethoflagos]

13 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Can you please demonstrate how bronze age technology works in modern elevators?

I'm not inclined to. 4th Dynasty Egypt lifted some pretty impressive pieces of masonry at Giza. Elevators typically account for 3% to 5% of the energy consumption of a modern high-rise office block (ref: Elevators and Escalators Energy Performance Analysis: Patrao et al.). Even this relatively low energy usage could be significantly reduced by appropriate technological improvements (same reference). Plus people capable of using staircases should do so for the health benefits as much as power saving.

Hence:

15 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

The technical/economic challenges and energy costs of heavy lifts to oto 1000 tonnes are trivial.

I see that @TheVat has kindly just fielded the rest of your post so no point in me restating his explanations.

[Endy0816]

On 9/26/2023 at 9:40 AM, TheVat said:

Yes, some berm house are made by building up soil rather than major excavation.  They're left open on the front but with soil built up everywhere else then stabilized with sod.  I was unfamiliar with Disney tunnels, our family was never into theme parks like that.  So I looked them up, learned that Walt saw a cowboy walking through Tomorrowland on his way to Frontierland and felt that messed up the guest experience.  Which led to the utilidor system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disney_utilidor_system

Sounds like the sort of places people take refuge in an apocalypse novel.  

Your termite mound sounds similar to the sci-fi concept of the arcology. 

I have reflected on the inefficiency of having stoves that release their heat into an air conditioned house, or fridges that also do that.  In the USA, the range hood is a rudimentary approach which vents some of the heat.  In the 19th century through the early 20th here, some homes had "summer kitchens" and a stove would be set up in an enclosed porch so that its heat wouldn't go into the home interior.  

Yeah, ironically Disney wouldn't be the worst spot to take refuge.

They're mostly dilapidated today, but people built a crazy number of true underground shelters here too.

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/orlando/inside-the-forgotten-mount-dora-catacombs-the-nations-largest-subterranean-bomb-shelter/Slideshow/30946612/30868492

 

[Peterkin]

Those shelters may be needed again pretty soon. Some of them, in various parts of the world, are being restored and refurbished.