Capacitors (split from So are quantum entangled or teleported particles instantly there)

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On 29/10/2018 at 7:11 PM, Menan said:

there evidence that entangled particles at a distance are entangled instantly

There is something very familiar, known from the first steps in the study of electricity. It is the capacitor of parallel plates.

Nothing is mysterious in that capacitor. That does not diminish the relevance of a peculiar property. The force between the plates is independent of the separation of the plates. Separated by 1 millimeter, or separated by an astronomical distance, the force has the same value as long as the charges remain unchanged. Richard Feynman used to mention that property to the students, to encourage the attitude we call open-mindedness.

In the parallel plate capacitor, the force vector has the direction of a line segment comprised between the plates. That is, that force operates in a one-dimensional space. I emphasize that because in the paragraphs I will use the words space and time within that context, not in a space with more dimensions.

Can something be a function of time that is not a function of space? In the equation of capacitive force, space does not appear. That is, the distance between plates does not appear. For that force, space does not exist. Without space the definition of speed is impossible. And without space or speed, time is impossible. Now I will ask another question.

Very distant plates, for example separated by an astronomical distance. On one of the plates we alter something. For example, we alter the charge by touching the plate with an electrified object. In the new situation, the force can not have the same value as in the previous situation. How long is it necessary for the new force value to be established on the plate away from us?

The answer is surprising. No time. Zero. Both plates update the new force value together. I repeat, in the equation of capacitive force space, speed and time do not exist. These three terms operate only in the definitions we propose to develop mechanics and branches of physics related to mechanics.

Edited by quiet
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5 hours ago, quiet said:

The answer is surprising. No time. Zero. Both plates update the new force value together. I repeat, in the equation of capacitive force space, speed and time do not exist. These three terms operate only in the definitions we propose to develop mechanics and branches of physics related to mechanics.

I think every equation in electronic circuit theory doesn't include a time variable.  I don't think science will ever be able to bring unification of electron speed and electronic circuit theory either.  The limitations of the speed of electronics is mostly dependent on clock speed or crystal frequencies.  Most physicist would probably just treat this example like the same way that the electromagnetic forces comes from inductors, so I don't think anyone would even be qualified to answer that question.  Then they say that it would have to exchange a photon to transmit the electromagnetic force, and that is limited by the speed of light.  According to what you are saying, they wouldn't need to exchange a photon to transmit the force between two charged plates.

Edited by Conjurer
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6 hours ago, quiet said:

Can something be a function of time that is not a function of space? In the equation of capacitive force, space does not appear. That is, the distance between plates does not appear. For that force, space does not exist. Without space the definition of speed is impossible. And without space or speed, time is impossible. Now I will ask another question.

You do talk nonsense sometimes.

The force equation you are referring to is, I assume, $F = \frac{Q E}{2}$.

If so, this is an approximation that is only valid where the electric field is uniform. In other words when the gap is much smaller than the area of the plates.

At large distances the plates could be modelled as point charges (meaning the force would have an inverse square relationship).

6 hours ago, quiet said:

The answer is surprising. No time. Zero. Both plates update the new force value together. I repeat, in the equation of capacitive force space, speed and time do not exist. These three terms operate only in the definitions we propose to develop mechanics and branches of physics related to mechanics.

This is also obviously nonsense. I have no idea where you got this idea from, but just the fact that it violates causality should show you it is wrong.

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1 hour ago, Conjurer said:

you are saying, they wouldn't need to exchange a photon to transmit the force between two charged plates.

Yes.

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1 hour ago, Conjurer said:

I think every equation in electronic circuit theory doesn't include a time variable.

If that were true it would not be possible to build any sort of tuned circuit or control system.

An RC circuit is about the simplest example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RC_time_constant

1 hour ago, Conjurer said:

The limitations of the speed of electronics is mostly dependent on clock speed or crystal frequencies.

We usually use a clock to force circuits to run more slowly than their maximum speed (in a controlled and synchronised manner).

4 minutes ago, quiet said:

Yes.

You should stop digging.

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3 minutes ago, Strange said:

So how is the force transmitted? Magic?

There is too much research pending about capacitive phenomenon. Remember. Maxwell never can completed the electrodynamic theory without an analysis of the electric displacement on vacuum, just referred to a capacitor.

Note I take care pointing the monodimensional operation of capacitive force.

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Just now, quiet said:

Note I take care pointing the monodimensional operation of capacitive force.

And I explained why it is obvious nonsense. As studiot says, you need to fill these gaps in your knowledge.

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38 minutes ago, Strange said:

And I explained why it is obvious nonsense. As studiot says, you need to fill these gaps in your knowledge.

Is nonsense what I have posted? May be. Need I  to fill the gaps in my knowledge? Yes, sure! Is something obvious in the behavior of the capacitor in vacuum? I prefer to walk here very carefuly.

Think the following. You make work to increase the distance between the plates of the  capacitor. The energy involved have changed. If the force operates exchanging photons, you have two possibilities.

1. To change the number of photons if photon's frequency remains constant. This implies that you are supossing that space is discrete. Problem here.

2. The number of photons remains constant and photon's frequency changes. Then, you are supossing that a capacitor can produce a parametric transformation. Problem here.

For this kind of problems I prefer to walk carefuly.

Edited by quiet
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50 minutes ago, quiet said:

If the force operates exchanging photons,

Note that the force carriers are virtual photons, which are not really particles and don't obey the normal rules.

51 minutes ago, quiet said:

1. To change the number of photons if photon's frequency remains constant. This implies that you are supossing that space is discrete. Problem here.

2. The number of photons remains constant and photon's frequency changes. Then, you are supossing that a capacitor can produce a parametric transformation. Problem here.

I have no idea what that means.

51 minutes ago, quiet said:

For this kind of problems I prefer to walk carefuly.

I suggest you walk carefully to the nearest library.

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9 minutes ago, Strange said:

I suggest you walk carefully to the nearest library.

When you get there any good electrical engineering textbook will offer the formula

for F, the force between the plates as

${\rm{F = }}\frac{{\rm{1}}}{{\rm{2}}}{{\rm{\varepsilon }}_{\rm{0}}}{{\rm{\varepsilon }}_{\rm{r}}}{\rm{A(Potential}}\;{\rm{gradient}}\;{\rm{in}}\;{\rm{volts}}\;{\rm{per}}\;{\rm{metre)}}$

Where A is the area the epsilons have the usual values and the potential gradient very cleary depends upon the distance between the plates.

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10 hours ago, quiet said:

There is something very familiar, known from the first steps in the study of electricity. It is the capacitor of parallel plates.

Nothing is mysterious in that capacitor. That does not diminish the relevance of a peculiar property. The force between the plates is independent of the separation of the plates. Separated by 1 millimeter, or separated by an astronomical distance, the force has the same value as long as the charges remain unchanged. Richard Feynman used to mention that property to the students, to encourage the attitude we call open-mindedness.

In the parallel plate capacitor, the force vector has the direction of a line segment comprised between the plates. That is, that force operates in a one-dimensional space. I emphasize that because in the paragraphs I will use the words space and time within that context, not in a space with more dimensions.

Can something be a function of time that is not a function of space? In the equation of capacitive force, space does not appear. That is, the distance between plates does not appear. For that force, space does not exist. Without space the definition of speed is impossible. And without space or speed, time is impossible. Now I will ask another question.

Very distant plates, for example separated by an astronomical distance. On one of the plates we alter something. For example, we alter the charge by touching the plate with an electrified object. In the new situation, the force can not have the same value as in the previous situation. How long is it necessary for the new force value to be established on the plate away from us?

The answer is surprising. No time. Zero. Both plates update the new force value together. I repeat, in the equation of capacitive force space, speed and time do not exist. These three terms operate only in the definitions we propose to develop mechanics and branches of physics related to mechanics.

No.

You must assume the plates are infinite for your claim that the force is independent of the separation (or the approximation, where the separation is much smaller than the size of the plate); otherwise it will  end up looking like point charges when the separation is large enough, as noted earlier. And there's no way the effect is instantaneous.

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I want to give a faithful testimony that I have not started this thread. That is why I invite those who lead the forum to investigate the reason why this thread has been created and for what purpose it was created.

It is a serious abnormality the appearance with the username that has not created the thread. It's like adding the scene of a crime to blame a person who did not commit the crime. And this is exactly the case. It's bad. Please do not allow this to go uninvestigated. The universe is restricted to those who have access to the forum's database and can see my password, which is too complex to guess randomly.

Edited by quiet
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33 minutes ago, quiet said:

I want to give a faithful testimony that I have not started this thread. That is why I invite those who lead the forum to investigate the reason why this thread has been created and for what purpose it was created.

It is quite normal for moderators to split off-topic posts to a new thread.

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48 minutes ago, quiet said:

The universe is restricted to those who have access to the forum's database and can see my password, which is too complex to guess randomly.

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!

Moderator Note

Let’s stick to the subject (capacitors) or I might have to split this thread again!

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16 hours ago, quiet said:

There is something very familiar, known from the first steps in the study of electricity. It is the capacitor of parallel plates.

Nothing is mysterious in that capacitor. That does not diminish the relevance of a peculiar property. The force between the plates is independent of the separation of the plates. Separated by 1 millimeter, or separated by an astronomical distance, the force has the same value as long as the charges remain unchanged. Richard Feynman used to mention that property to the students, to encourage the attitude we call open-mindedness.

In the parallel plate capacitor, the force vector has the direction of a line segment comprised between the plates. That is, that force operates in a one-dimensional space. I emphasize that because in the paragraphs I will use the words space and time within that context, not in a space with more dimensions.

Can something be a function of time that is not a function of space? In the equation of capacitive force, space does not appear. That is, the distance between plates does not appear. For that force, space does not exist. Without space the definition of speed is impossible. And without space or speed, time is impossible. Now I will ask another question.

Very distant plates, for example separated by an astronomical distance. On one of the plates we alter something. For example, we alter the charge by touching the plate with an electrified object. In the new situation, the force can not have the same value as in the previous situation. How long is it necessary for the new force value to be established on the plate away from us?

The answer is surprising. No time. Zero. Both plates update the new force value together. I repeat, in the equation of capacitive force space, speed and time do not exist. These three terms operate only in the definitions we propose to develop mechanics and branches of physics related to mechanics.

Yes the time as described seems to be zero, this violates known physics.  If the space were between astronomical bodies, millions or billions of miles, would the time still be zero, or would the distance allow for precision measurements.  If this time is zero, what do we really know to be true?

1 hour ago, Strange said:
!

Moderator Note

Let’s stick to the subject (capacitors) or I might have to split this thread again!

No one wants to follow your lead, I ask a great question and you have no clue so you want the question to vanish.

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2 hours ago, Menan said:

Yes the time as described seems to be zero, this violates known physics.  If the space were between astronomical bodies, millions or billions of miles, would the time still be zero, or would the distance allow for precision measurements.  If this time is zero, what do we really know to be true?

I missed where it was actually established that the time would be zero..

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3 hours ago, Menan said:

No one wants to follow your lead, I ask a great question and you have no clue so you want the question to vanish.

You have only just joined SF but I forsee your stay being short since the new moderators have been given the ban gun.

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20 hours ago, quiet said:

Yes.

I think that would probably be an interesting failed experiment if that did happen.  It would, essentially, disprove one of the primary links made into the theory which allowed the development of quantum electrodynamics.  It would be one of the biggest blunderbusses the Standard Model had ever seen.

20 hours ago, Strange said:

If that were true it would not be possible to build any sort of tuned circuit or control system.

An RC circuit is about the simplest example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RC_time_constant

Whom I studied electronics under just told us the only time that really matters is in high power systems that have huge capacitors which would probably be to large for anything that we would probably ever work on, now that I think about it.  Circuits are mostly tuned by the impedance of the materials they are made out of, since Alexander Grand Bell got a hold of them.  Then most of the time, nobody even has to worry about that sort of thing, since mostly all electronics use small capacitors that charge up very quickly.

Edited by Conjurer
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4 hours ago, Conjurer said:

Whom I studied electronics under just told us the only time that really matters is in high power systems that have huge capacitors which would probably be to large for anything that we would probably ever work on, now that I think about it.

You should write to the college and ask for your money back.

4 hours ago, Conjurer said:

Then most of the time, nobody even has to worry about that sort of thing, since mostly all electronics use small capacitors that charge up very quickly.

When designing electronic circuits, even if we are not using capacitors for their time-related behaviour, we still have to worry about the effects of tiny stray capacitance on the behaviour of the circuit. One of the main timing problems in IC design is the time it takes for signals to propagate along wires between components. This time delay is determined by the capacitance and resistance of the wires.

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9 minutes ago, Strange said:

When designing electronic circuits, even if we are not using capacitors for their time-related behaviour, we still have to worry about the effects of tiny stray capacitance on the behaviour of the circuit. One of the main timing problems in IC design is the time it takes for signals to propagate along wires between components. This time delay is determined by the capacitance and resistance of the wires.

Yes but not for the purpose of propagation time on circuit boards. That worry  has to do with unwanted capacitive coupling between parts of the circuit

Propagation time effects are determined by the inductance of the tracks, which is one reason why they are flat strips.

Edited by studiot
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3 minutes ago, studiot said:

Yes but not for the purpose of propagation time on circuit boards. That worry  has to do with unwanted capacitive coupling between parts of the circuit

Propagation time effects are determined by the inductance of the tracks, which is one reason why they are flat strips.

Interesting. I have never had to do any timing analysis on PCBs. Inductance is also a factor in IC design but from what I remember it is pretty small. The major contributions are the capacitance of the tracks and gates. (And, anyway, the subject is capacitors!)

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12 minutes ago, Strange said:

The major contributions are the capacitance of the tracks and gates. (And, anyway, the subject is capacitors!)

Contributions to what?

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1 minute ago, studiot said:

Contributions to what?

To propagation delay/rise time; to complex impedance; to stray/parasitic capacitance.

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Just now, Strange said:

To timing; to complex impedance; to stray/parasitic capacitance.

So can you reference a calculation to where the capacitance of a wire or track on a circuit board affects the timing of that circuit?

20 minutes ago, Strange said:

(And, anyway, the subject is capacitors!)

I agree with you , which is why I consider this below to be off topic and belonging to the original thread.

9 hours ago, Menan said:

I do not establish such things, but the current best estimate for an entanglement speed is three trillion meters per second or four times light speed.  So somebody dig up Albert and have him start the whole thing over.  Effectively instantaneous between any two Earth points

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