Bettina

I would like to hear about the people who have read some of Rebiu's posts.

I've added Rebiu to three others here that I treat with caution because of their attitude.

Bee

I know of two or three because they celebrate holidays differently than I. Other than that I've never had a reason to ask.

Bee

The maturity of Islam needs to be on a fast track and I, admittedly, have no idea how to implement that.

Unfortunately for the human race it can't because most are blind.

I started a thread a week ago on what worries me most but pulled it for fear that it would cause an uproar. I am going to reword it and post it again so it won't directly name names.....

Bee

.....However, it's difficult to meet anyone when I'm only sitting with relatives, and then leave the same time they do. It is definitely not like high school, when I had the chance to go sit with other students and talk with them about similar interests.

Herme3.

I have more good friends than I can count. We go shopping, see movies, or just hang at the mall together meeting up with yet more friends. Even with that, its still a daily struggle for me to be happy so I know how you feel. I have my personal cross but you sound like you don't like yourself... and unless that changes all the friends you can get aren't going to help.

I'm the last one to give you advice on being happy but you gotta like yourself first. You don't have to look important, be important, or even overly smart, but being neatly groomed, confident and courteous is a big plus in my book. Get those parts in order first then find a male buddy and go out to where the girls are. They will find you and no swearing when talking to them either.

Remember this always..... There are girls out there, at home, thinking just like you do. All you have to do is find them.

Bettina

Edit... I do a lot of church work and thats a good place to start too. Grab the flyer at the church and look at where you can help out.

.... but [i'] see things differently

No you don't. You see things like I do but your mind handles it better.

Bee

Unfortunately, that list won't help those who can't see. Now that I'm sick, I think I'll just go throw up.

Bee

I wear hard contact lenses and sometimes, although rare, I can't get them out without using a plunger. My opthalmologist never sees anything wrong with the surface of my eyes even when I mentioned it to him.

Bee

yes' date=' emotionally based life form that you claim to be, I suspect that you are RIGHT in the following sense-----people need to be able to openly discuss things at the same table if they are going to learn to SEPARATE THEM FOR THEMSELVES.

 

when there is no reliable recipe handed down by an authority that you trust, no set of distinctions and definitions that convincingly sorts things out, then you have to [b']learn how to sort it out for yourself[/b]

 

and that requires freedom to mix it however seems right

 

Actually YOU have learned how to do this rather well IMO. I dont agree with several of your views but I appreciate the clarity. So you learned something somewhere, maybe partly here at SFN, by talking to people and speaking your mind. Or you got it from family members, church, school or something.

I have no family but dad (I live with him) and he has no clue as to what I say here so he probably thinks I'm as quiet here as I am in real life.

So, I must be getting it here.

Bee

Well, I just got the two books I was waiting for from Amazon...

"The Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene ( I read his other one)

"Warped Pasages" by Lisa Randall.

I'm reading WP first. If I like the book, I will read it very slowly and only for an hour before I sleep.

Bee

Martin.... Look at the review one person gave to smolins book... http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0618551050/ref=cm_cr_dp_pt/104-7422758-3593505?ie=UTF8&n=14560&s=books

Martin.... I'm going to try to talk a little like you but I'm also listening to some music so I hope you understand.

So I see Science very entangled with Ethics and Religion and Politics.

Yes it is. An example is a scientist who works six days a week in a lab with his physics books, but on Sunday mornings you will find him in his church holding a very different book. A book he can separate from the others and treat as reverent as his physics books. He can do this because he keeps his religion personal. To him, his science and religion are like oil and water in a jar with each one clearly separate, co-existing, and happy like their meant to be.

The other examples are Kansas, intellegent design, twisted thinking, and creationism stickers placed on science books to name a few. Oil and water again only this time homogenized, blurry, and clearly unhappy.

I believe the first example is the way its supposed to be and I see that in my church... but its the second example that is prevalent in the world today and unfortunately continues to make challenges to science, life, and school children everywhere. Since that oil and water is seen as one by many, and isn't going to separate anytime soon, we must keep them in the same forum so we can continue to discuss them as one.

Bettina

I don't know if they come from the middle east or not but there is a very nice Palestinian couple who operate a small store that I've been going to since I was little. They have Palestinian photos on their wall along with a photo of their son in a U.S. Air force uniform.

Thats all I can think of. Hope that helps.

Bettina

I am proud to be on the same board with you and think you contribute a lot.

 

hope this made a little sense.

 

Salaam (peace)' date='

 

Martin abu dhabu ben Martin, your Arab sympathizer friend:D[/quote']

 

Thank you Martin. Your becoming my mentor. I have been called a racist and a bigot by some members here and that hurts me. I'm not that kind of person so when someone says nice things it really helps.

 

Sorry I don't know any Arab or Israeli talk if you are one of those. When I play my multiplayer online game at night with some of my German friends, we text taunt each other and I have no clue what their saying. They try some english but its rarely understandable. We get along anyway.

 

Your Italian american friend...

 

Bee

with reguards to 3.151' date=' i suspect your getting slightly confused with the word 'terror'... i suspect (tho do not know) that the terror to which the verse refers is the terror of going to hell, not terrorism-class terror, which is what your enboldening of the word implies that you are interpreting it as.

 

other than that, i certainly wouldn't label that as a bad argument, and i'd be inclined to generally agree.

 

i appologise if the following sounds patronising. it's not intended to be, but i can't think how else to word it.

 

do you see the significance of the difference between this:

 

"Many Islamic traditions have stances on womens rights, violence, and racism which cause me to distrust the meanings of the religion, and the following Quaran passages illustrate my point."

 

and phrases such as 'islam is evil'?

 

note, for example, that the latter doesn't neccesarily follow from the former.

 

as someone who's repeatedly had a go at you over this issue, i appologise for never having managed to explain it as well as mokele did.[/quote']

 

You probably did but I kept my eyes closed. Your ok with me Dak.

 

Bee

Now' date=' let's try with Islam. Comape this:

"Islam is an inherently violent and oppressive religion."

to this:

"Many Islamic traditions have stances on women's rights and violence which give me cause for concern, and the following Quaran passages illustrate my point."[/quote']

 

That was a good example and I'm guilty of the former so I'll try it your way.

 

Many Islamic traditions have stances on womens rights, violence, and racism which cause me to distrust the meanings of the religion, and the following Quaran passages illustrate my point.

 

Koran verse 9.30 -- And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

 

Koran verse 5.51 -- O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

 

Koran verse 3.151 -- We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust

 

Koran verse 4.34 -- Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

 

Basically the Koran says the husband should first warn his wife, and if that fails then ground her like a child, and if that fails, to beat her until she submits because she is the servent. So much for womens rights.

 

More on womens oppression....

http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Story.asp?Article=154070&Sn=WORL&IssueID=29162

 

Bettina

Honestly, I think I'll just go.

Don't!... Your one of the good people here and I for one don't want you to go. The mods and admins are having a rough time so give them a chance. Take a break.... read a book.... go get ice cream. Just cool it.

Bee

It depends on the clarity of your sight.

 

The above includes an inplied presumption that islam is a religeon that intereres with basic human rights' date=' the right to exist etc, and the problem (imo) is that i've never seen this presumption fully and validly supported.

 

Im all for free speach, and the right to discuss matters, even if they may offend, but, again imo, a line has to be drawn as to when to tell someone to support their claims or shut up, reguardless of what they're saying.

 

I have no problem with people expressing derogatory views about christianity, islam, blacks, whites, men, women, gays, whatever (some of those groups i belong to), as long as theyre validly backed up.

 

if they're not... then that's fine too. no one is immune to making mistakes, and mistaking an invalid conclusion for a valid one is a forgivable error.

 

However, when someone has been repeatedly shown that their views are flawed, yet, rather than altering them or demonstrating them not to be flawed, they just repeat them, it starts to get annoying, reguardless of what the oppinion is; and if said oppinion is derogatory to a group, then we're obviously in the area of unsuported predjudice, i.e. racist shit-headery.

 

In principle, the methodology of arriving at a conclusion is more relevent to wether something is unfairly predjudiced than the truthfulness of the conclusion. If i say that 'all nazis are nasty because they molest childeren' even tho i have had it demonstrated to me that most nazis do not molest childeren, then i'm being unfairly predjudiced. Yes, coincidentally, nazis are nasty, but thats not the point. if i'm sticking with flawed logic to support a prejudiced oppinion that i have descided to have, then that is unfairly prejudiced by definition.[/quote']

 

I have shown that an entire country, run by Islamic law, interfered with the basic human rights of women and children for years until it was liberated in 2001. I applaud my country for disolving one of the most oppressed societys in history. Maybe you should look at these links and decide whether more support for my claims are needed and if those are no good I have dozens more.

 

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/photography/uimonen/gallery1.html

 

http://www.blacklooks.org/2006/06/somalia_sharia_and_rights_of_women.html

 

Bee

And Islam generally does not interfere with those rights. It's the literalists that let it. You're also misunderstanding one basic thing - those are rights to you and your culture. Other cultures have completely different perspectives on what the place of people in society is. If I told you that the ancient Chinese would kill a dead man's wife so she could be with him in his tomb' date=' you'd be appalled, but they found no problem with it. In essence, it is a completely different set of values and morals that they believe in, and judging them based on yours is worthless. They are probably just at appalled at some of our practices.

 

Let's take a step back and remember that their culture is [i']totally[/i] different from ours; what is "suffering" to you is not "suffering" to them, and what a "right" is to you is totally different to them. Also remember that you're judging a minority of their religion, and that their religion has been "maturing" 400 years less.

Ask the women dragged out of her house and stoned to death if it was ok because their "culture" allowed it. Ask the women who gets beaten because she accidentally showed her face to another man. That isn't culture, its a violation of basic human rights and as a human being, I refuse to accept it.

Islam interferes with those rights and I've shown that over and over again by pre war Afghanistan. I'm not misunderstanding any of it.

Bee

One more thing about censorship and I know its off topic but look at Kansas. The fact that discussion was very open led to the defeat of the Intellegent Design movement and brought those "impressionable minds" back from the brink of another dark age.

Any religion that interferes with basic human rights, the right to exist, or the right to a good education, should be challenged no matter who is insulted by it even if its an SFN member. I'm going to keep trying to do that because no one should suppress what you see.

Bee

And I want you to know that I'm using many of your posts here to make a point' date=' not really to single you out for any kind of punishment. The staff has been accused of allowing a double standard to exist with regards to these matters. We've also been accused of showing favoritism, deference to your age and sex, many things which I don't beleive are really relevant.

 

But this particular area stands out to me. I'm not trying to defend Islam so much as I am trying to figure out why Islam is not under the definition of our policies against Prejudicial and Racist Remarks. Frankly, most are arguing this as a freedom of opinion matter. They see censorship only.

 

I'm not here to try to convince you to change your opinion of Islam. I'm here to clarify what should be the basis for Prejudiced / Racist Remarks. If one of your German friends was called a Nazi because he was German you'd defend him. If the remark was posted here at SFN, *I* would defend him too. Is all this simply because you have no friends who are Islamic who can show you they aren't devil-worshippers? If you knew some Islamic people who were pretty cool would you make your posts a bit more tolerant towards them?[/quote']

 

Whew..... I thought my last remark would have got me booted for sure so I'm resting easier now.

 

Yes, I would defend my German friend from being called a Nazi. I would also defend my black, yellow, green and blue friends along with my Israeli friends and my gay and lesbian friends. I have done that in other threads here because I'm not a racist. I don't have any Muslim friends because the only ones I have seen were the two girls in school that didn't talk to anyone. I tried my best to get them involved with my group ob nice people but no dice. All they wanted to talk about was their faith. They even ended up boycotting the prom and writing a letter to the principal. I spoke of all that in another thread.

 

I would like to have some cool Muslim friends and if I did I would defend them like my other friends. But.... not their religion. I will never defend that. Before you comment, just remember I don't defend the Christian bible either and I'm very much a Christian like girl. If you look at some of my very early posts you would see where I had big issues with it and still do.

 

There should not be a policy on SFN to prevent discussing any religion that oppresses its women and children and allows killing in the name of a fictional character. At one time it was Christianity, in my time.... its Islam.

 

Bettina

Here's the whole post:

And here's the whole thread: http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18232&page=2

I'm sorry Phi.... but I stand by what I said in that thread. I'm shaking a bit while I type this and I know it will give more ammunition to Severian, Bud, and Tetrahedrite but I personally feel, by what I see today, that the Islamic movement is parallel to the Nazi movement. If we continue to ignore it, its going to kill us.

Still shaking...

Bettina

But it's not about hate. It's about disagreement. I mean' date=' Islam may be hateful or racist, but [i']I'm[/i] not because I point it out. Scots are people. Blacks are people. Gays are people. Islam is a religion. If people define themselves by it, then that's their problem isn't it?

 

I haven't seen anyone address Muslims, but rather Islam. There's a difference.

 

By the way, did you read the quotes I provided from the Kuran? You said if it can be argued that Islam is like the Nazis and the KKK...

Exactly.....

I am not a racist in any form. I detest people who bash gays and I've stood up for gay rights on this board several times and still do. I would equally detest those who may talk about skin color in a negative way. I have friends of all colors and love them all equally and I have never said that all Muslims are evil.

I am of Italian origin, and at night, I play an online multiplayer game with my far away friends who are German, Polish, and a host of others. I just don't feel the same way about Islam.

Bettina

I'd probably do away with the last one altogether. And the first one is grammatically incorrect, but I guess that's not the point. None of those are particularly bad on their own, though they don't make a "case against Islam" and shouldn't be used as such. It might be a good idea to be more specific than just "Islamic." Perhaps "Salafist" or something, where appropriate.

"All creationists are evil?" Got that from you know who.

I looked up "Salafist" in Wiki and it says "The Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat (French Groupe Salafiste pour la Prédication et le Combat, also known as Group for Call and Combat) (Arabic الجماعة السلفية لدعوة والقتال) is a militant Islamist group which aims to overthrow the Algerian government and institute an Islamic state.

No matter how you change the word, it always comes back to a militant Islamic group. The "case against Islam" is what this is all about and I know I've been cursed for what I say here, with more than just some wishing I would leave, but I am very much a realist and I just can't run away.

When I look at Afghanistan where the "teachers" in school would read out of the Koran the very words that teach young boys to hate and prepare for holy war against unbelievers, it bothers me big time. Those kids don't know right from wrong. Today, in my short time, holy war is associated with Islam and some here find that very statement offensive.

There are also people here who have a big problem with creationists but not all creationists are evil. I know that for a fact because I have been preaching creationism to a large audience for five years now. Nowhere on this board do I see that called racism, prejudice, or whatever.

I see those little kids in church hanging on my every word and when they leave, they go home and play video games. They don't practice Jihad.

When I say that Islam is evil I don't mean that all Muslims are evil. Just the religion and yes, I still believe that as long as those words are still being preached, and sadly..... fighting terrorism means fighting radical Islam.

I don't know where I'm even going with this and right now I just don't care what anyone sasys anoymore.

Ok.... Could someone tell me if these wordings are acceptable here or are they considered racist and biggoted. I took them from MSNBC and CNN. Those of you who are offended could help me change them to something else.

What wording would you change.

-Islamofascists and the strict sharia law has made prisoners of women and children.....

-Radical Islam is becoming a major problem.....

-Islamic Militants raided a small village killing several women and children.....

-Islamic Terrorists Target Kids During Toy Giveaway...

-Islamic suicide bombers kill 10 and wound 50 in Jerusalem today...

-All creationists are evil...

And Darkangel... you can call me an atheist all you want.

Bee

You were asked to leave???

No, of course not. I was just commenting on the meaning of severians post.

Bee

He's a professional musician.

Yes he is and cool too! I have a lot of his music.

http://www.weirdal.com/home.htm

Bee