Bettina

Watch this video done completely in reverse. Stay with it cause it gets really good. This person is an artist.

http://www.break.com/movies/balancing_point_in_reverse.html

Bee

When was that?

God! I missed that completely. One letter off. :embarass:

Bee

Yet, it never attacked Israel. Israel did attack Iran

Iran is an enemy by its own words and deeds. Maybe you can tell us whats on your mind instead of using one liners.

Bee

How can you be so certain that non want to trade I mean that's a pretty fore gone statement. Sonar or later Israel has to negotiate' date=' if they are smart they will include trade of some sort.

 

and for god sake have some faith in people.[/quote']

 

I only have faith in civilized people, not terrorists. Check the link below.

 

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22424.pdf

 

Ok, Now were back to square one. What should Israel do to protect its people?

 

Bettina

I don't seem to follow your conclusion. It's one thing if the neighboring countries don't want to trade with you, but I don't see why they wouldn't want to increase their living standards. Also I don't see how trading negatively effects your security on the contrary it will make your enemies appreciate your existence, then of cause they wouldn't be an enemy for long. As for civilized countries trading with enemies Fiat goes one step further and announces that they are going to manufacture cars in Iran, now this is a strategy that I agree with. Maybe Israel could do something of the sort when feelings calm down a bit.

Iran has publicly called for the destruction of Israel and I can supply you with links quoting its president if you wish. Most of the surrounding countries feel the same and none want to trade.

So, your next suggestion is?

Edit.... I'm not trying to be mean, I just want an answer.

Bettina

This what I here from your side all the time. What else could we do. For starters one have to understand that civilizations came about cause of trade and with trade comes mutual interests. It then doesn't matter whose fault it is and who started what. This overall strategy has to come before various tactics like destroying infrastructure or other collective punishments.

Your right..... But.

How does a civilized country trade with its neighbors that have always wanted to destroy it from day one. Some, have it in their countries constitution that Israel should not exist. Now, how does it protect itself.

I'm just trying to understand what your solution really is. The mutual trade is out for the above reasons.

Bettina

You'd be wise not to use this place as a primary source of information' date=' just a place to discuss (and very cautiously at that)

 

I don't have a problem separating fact from fiction. There is a lot of knowledge here and sometimes even the "way out" posters can lead you in a good direction. Its also a great place to get links.

 

Be good Silkworm.

 

Bettina

What do you think Israel should do to protect its innocent women and children from being blown up in a shopping mall or bus by terrorists who hide across the border among their civilian population. Could you answer me that? Does anyone here have a better plan than all the ones which previously have not worked?

I really would like an answer from the constant Israeli bashers here.

Bettina

While were on the subject...

When I read the science books I'm interested in and have a question, I go to Wiki to find the answer instead of coming here and posting it. Do you think that other SFN members do that too?

Bee

To enjoy your freedom' date=' you should in the first place stay alive, shouldn't you?

 

In my opinion, the problem is, the human life presently has different value depending on where the human live. Israel has a history of killing dozens of civilians in Gaza while hunting for single terrorists. Now, Israelis were well aware that their actions will inevitably lead to the death of hundreds

civilians in Lebanon. This has no difference at all with deliberate murder. The lifes of two captured Israeli solgers is regarded more valuable then lifes of thousand innocent Lebanese civilians. Likewise, US invasion in Iraq has led to death of more than 100 000 Iraquis, all to the purpose of defending Americans from the illusory threat of Iraq WMD.

 

I would consider it a kind of modern racism: discriminating people by the place they were born is no better than discriminatating by the skin color.[/quote']

 

Your so misinformed that I just don't know what to say.......

 

Bettina

Mine has pins missing too. I'm sure this is normal. Good Luck.

Hmmm... I wonder if I can Quantum teleport you more pins.

Bee

For me it has nothing to do with whether he's a conservative' date=' and it has absolutely nothing to do with forgiveness. I love him as an actor and still do. I've loved most of the movies I've seen him in.

 

However, as an alcoholic, I can tell you that being drunk is never an excuse for horrible behavior, no matter how much you want it to be. And being drunk doesn't put words in your head, it just makes you stupid enough to give voice to the words that are there already, no matter who they hurt. Alcoholism is not a disease, it's an addiction. Calling it a disease makes it somehow not your fault. And this was definitely Mel's fault.

 

But he merely showed us his prejudice, his opinion of Jews, so it's not up to me to forgive Mel Gibson for what he said while he was drinking. This is not something he did against me that needs my forgiveness. It's really not about the Jews forgiving him either. We now know he blames Jews for many things and it's up to us to decide whether or not we want anything to do with him anymore. Mel Gibson is entitled to his opinion about Jews. And I'm entitled to think less of him for it.[/quote']

 

That pretty much goes for me and all my friends too. I do, however, commend him for owning up to it and his apology seems sincere.

 

This will not hurt him financially but he seems like he doesn't want people to think less of him. It bothers him and thats a good sign.

 

Bee

It is the lebanese ppl who elected their government, and are not exactly rebelling against the lebanese government or hezbollah(in fact they are supporting them more). As Bush says he would not distinguish between the harbourers of terrorists and terrorists; adopting his logic, wouldn't Lebanese civilians become legitimate targets? On top of that, Hamas a terrorist organisation, enjoys widespread support among the Palestinian populace and was elected with a large majority. Does this make them harbourers of terrorists too?

No it doesn't. The Bush doctrine was aimed at governments, not the brainwashed civilians who were sold a bill of goods. The people voted for the terrorist organization without reading the fine print.

Bee

.....However naive or short sighted the collective opinion is of the Lebanese ppl with regard to Hezbollah; do they deserve to pay for this with their lives? It seems to me your answer may be yes, which alarms me.

If Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government then the government has technically declared war on Israel by Hezbollah firing rockets into Israel and kidnapping Israeli soldiers. The Lebanese government is totally responsible....

And no, no innocent civilian deserves to pay for their governments mistakes but this is the way wars are.

Something I got from another BB....

[i'] “We can perhaps forgive them for killing our children, but we can never forgive them for making us kill their children.” [/i]

Bettina

Having just returned from vacation i see i have a lot of threads to post non anti-muslim posts in but i wanted to address Bettina's ridiculous neigbhor analogy. fine they kill the kid. So the neighbor says "screw this i am gonna get them now" so they dig up the driveway and sidewalks dig up the yard' date=' burn the barn down and then burn down the entire house, not realizing that the family that lives their had nothing to do with the war, its just some scummy guy they rented their basement out to.

 

But its too late because as they burned down the house the killed the original occupants who had nothing to do with it as well. What do you think would happen to this neighbor who was just getting revenge for his dead child? would all the neighbors say "oh, he was acting in self defense, even though he torched the house and destroyed the land not to mention kill everyone in the house, it was just self defense. and if Lebannon actually had Nukes do you think Israel would simply invade so easily? no because then Israel could actually suffer major damage from any retaliation from the actual government whose country is being destroyed.

 

Do you people honestly think that merely carpet bombing the southern half of a country will end the conflict? and when does it go from merely Self defense to terror? the people of Lebanon live in constant fear of being bombed just like the Israelis do, they do't know where a bomb will drop either. Yet when Israel does it its called Self defense right? when Israel uses their advanced laser guided bombs and kills kids its fine to call it an accident right? but when the other side merely uses a much more crude way of doing the exact same thing its called terrorism?

 

To use Bettina's analogy once more if i throw rocks at Bettina's car she has a right to burn my entire house to the ground? if i hit her kid and leave him unconscious then the moral equivelence is she shooting my entire family and burning my house down? The problem is some people are automatically against any country in them iddle east that isnt Israel and will deny any reasoning that maybe they are just as much at fault as the other groups. Afterall Israel still has over 900 palestinians and Lebanese in prison, but its fine to call them prisoners and not kidnap victims? why is it different when one side does it? They are both fighting the same war, the only difference is Israel has American made bombs and jets and helicopters and The other groups have Iranian and Chinese made rockets...[/quote']

 

That was a nice post, but all you did was complain. Since you used my scenario why don't you answer the question. Your child is dead and I wanted to know what you would do.... not what you wouldn't do.

 

What Israel is doing right now is dropping leaflets telling everyone to leave. They aren't trying to kill anyone just remove the rocket launchers, ammunition, and strongholds, so they can't fire them into Israel anymore.

 

Bettina

My second favorite is a puffin because their just beautiful.

My favorite is my dog because she's a friend who is always there for me. She may not know it, but she is.

Bee

Have you ever heard a drunk person talk...?

Nope... well except on tv.

I still believe people will say things when their drunk that otherwise would be kept suppressed when sober. Also, it wasn't what Mel Gibson said, it was how he said it... full of hate.

Their is no doubt in my mind that he has issues with the Jewish.

Bee

I found a sequince oif numbers/letters in the back of the book I just finished.

If you have read this book and didn't notice this then check. It is crazy. At first thought' date=' the fibbionci sequence, then I noticed the letters. 1 V 1 U and 2 L's[/quote']

 

I've read that book and it was one of my favorites. I'll give you a clue....

 

The numbers are chapters in the book....

Take the first character from each of those chapters....

 

 

Bee

Mel Gibson Tirade

 

I gave the benefit of the doubt to Gibson for the Passion of the Christ' date=' but I think the latest tirade puts in serious doubt his purpose for showing the Jews in such a bad light in the film.[/quote']

 

I agree with you. People who drink lose their inhibitions and usually reveal their innermost feelings. He meant what he said at the time he said it and all the apologizing won't make it go away.

 

I think we got a glimpse of his inner self...

 

Bettina

INFJ all the way...

Bee

The only problem here -- as has been pointed out to you repeatedly' date=' by many different people, [i']ad nausium[/i] -- is that you fail to seperate terrorist muslims and non-terrorist muslims.

 

Many people interpret the torah to say that a phisical struggle of arms is the lowest 'jihad' that one can engage in, and one that should be avoided: learning, spreading the word of allah, and controlling your own less-than-desireable traits are all far more worthy endeavours. also, there's the whole 'you shouldn't kill people' teaching that a significant amount of muslims prescribe to.

 

Of course, there are an abundance of muslims that interpret these teachings differently, so as to allow the 'lets go blow up teh evil foreighners' attetude, and even consider it 'allahs will'.

 

every time al-quaeda strike, the muslim organisations of most countries publically speak out, condemning the terrorists and labelling them 'un-muslamic'. of course, i've no doubt that theres also a load of muslims going 'w00t!', but that's kinda my point -- islam is what the individual muslim makes it, and to label 'islam' as 'murderouse et al' is a tad unfair, considering the huge amount of muslims that condemn violence and murder, and specifically condemn the terrorists.

 

pretty much the same situation has existed, and to a lesser extent exists, with christianity. many did, and some still do, interpret it in such a way as to justify violence, oppression, etc. i think the bigger question is what leads people to a nasty interpretation rather than a non-nasty one, and espescially what causes islam as practiced in the middle east to apparently tend quite a bit towards violence.

Dak, I know I've been called on my comments before ad nausium, but I won't change my mind on how I see the Islamic religion or any religion that uses pain as a tool for advancement. Just because a majority of Muslims choose to ignore certain words of the Quran does not mean those words aren't there and as long as they are, there will be wars.

Yes, Christianity had its militant times using the sword, but the difference today is scarier weapons.

Bettina

I agree Jim. Time to call a spade a spade. Christianity had it's slaughter-fest in our history and now it's Islam. It's not a religion of peace' date=' just read a little of the Koran yourself and you'll see what I mean.

 

Also, check out http://www.obsessionthemovie.com. Nice trailer. But it shows a mere snapshot of the rhetoric that's been coming from that part of the world for decades. Death to America. When Islam rules the world. They have twisted an already twisted religion and taken it the next step.

 

Remember, Hitler mesmerized his people. He won their hearts and minds and deceived them with propaganda. That's the EXACT same thing going on over there, only multiple countries in on the act. They learned from Hitler. Did we?[/quote']

 

I never had a problem seeing Islam for what it really was. A militant, death loving, oppressive religion and I'm glad to see some here stepping up to the plate instead of calling people bigots.

 

Wait till they get their hands on a nuke....

 

Bee

I want to experience something paranormal. Ideally' date=' I would want to get abducted by space aliens, as long as I can be awake and view the whole thing, even at the price of them killing me in the end.

 

But, I would also accept meeting deities and supernatural entities, or time-traveling or going to different dimensions.

 

I would also like to become immortal and have god-like powers via supernatural means (since science can't do this as yet).

 

If anyone knows how to do any of the above, please post a response so I can do it.

 

Thanks.[/quote']

 

Without a deep imagination and other things you are born with, you may not be able to. You could possibly try drugs.

 

Bee

Well first of all' date=' I asked what WE should do. I should have clarified that I'm an American, not an Israeli.

 

Second, the option you didn't list was the one we were talking about, that is, a temporary ceasefire. Ecoli thinks its not a permanent solution, and I agree completely. There are deeper problems. However, I do think stopping them from lobbing ineffectual but anger-producing missles at each other is probably a prerequisite for any kind of lasting progress.

 

So, back to the question. What should America do? We've already made lots of unambiguous threats about nations that aid terrorists. Apparently, the threats haven't solved the problem. So, what now? Do we invade Lebanon, Syria, and Iran?

 

And beyond terrorism, you mention evil towards women. Are you suggesting a full-scale occupation of the entire Islamic world?[/quote']

 

I purposely left cease fire out of the scenario because its not an option and wouldn't work. What is needed is a buffer zone, half on the Israeli border and half on the Lebanon border patroled by a multinational peace keeping force that has real power. The buffer zone needs to be the distance of a rocket so it cannot be launched and land in Israel. Israel is creating that buffer zone and the conflict can't end until thats completed. I couldn't use it in my example because I can't increase the distance between the two houses.

 

I don't know what America should do but I would not allow Iran to have a bomb at any cost. Syria is not as crazy.

 

I don't like my president but something he said stays with me and that is The U.S. will make no distinction between terrorists and those who harbor them.

 

Thanks for admitting that Islam has a problem with women. I love you for that. As far as oppressed women being held prisoners because of their countries strict religious code.... I'm biased so I can't give a good answer so I would invade....

 

Bee

What should we do, then?

Lets say you lived in a house that your neighbor was constantly bombarding with rocks. He breaks your windows, hurts your children, and frightens your wife. He won't communicate with you but you find out from other neighbors that he hates you and wants you to leave.

You can do several things... leave, live with it, put up a fence, call the police, or handle it yourself. Obviously you can't live with it because he's hurting you and you can't build a fence because he throws stuff over the top. That leaves calling the police, leaving, or handling it yourself.

Leaving is out of the question because its your home and you have nowhere else to go. Now were down to the big problem. Calling the police... who quickly inform you that they have no policeman but will send an observer to monitor the situation. You are also told this could take months, and even then, all they will be able to do is send the neighbor a letter from all the townspeople telling him to stop.

One of your children was killed.... Your out of options so what do you have left.

Bettina