Moontanman

That is true, but it indicates that a magnetic field can be used in ways that allow for a better coverage from several small magnets rather than one huge one. I think the devil will be in the engineering with this one. Even planetary size mag fields have been proposed.

There seems to be some effort on that front. https://phys.org/news/2022-05-magnetic-astronauts-dangerous-space.html

You assume the radiators would have to be near or in contact with the ice? Ok, lets use silicate debris in stead. Even Kuiper belt objects wouldn't be made of exclusively ice nor would all asteroids be made exclusively of silicates. I am sure there are or will be engineering work arounds for these heat radiation problems. This does direct back to my original premise of detecting aliens via their heat signatures or do we assume they have Clark tech that negates the issue? Heat radiation is a well known problem for space craft and many designs of nuclear powered craft do indeed take this into account.

You would have to have radiators no matter what it was made of wouldn't you?

This thread has moved away from detecting an alien space habitat by it's IR emissions. Currently it is discussing the viability of such habitats pertaining to protecting the inhabitants from space radiation coming in from outside the habitat. Preventing IR radiation from escaping is not relevant and such escape would occur no matter what the habitat was made of. In fact getting rid of waste heat might very well be a problem in the vacuum of space hence my idea of detecting such objects via their IR emissions which is not what we are currently talking about. Yes, we are talking sourcing materials locally in the kuiper belt or asteroid belt. Also boron suffers from being rare in the universe at large as well.

Having the protection spinning causes some problems. its mass for one and it's strength or lack thereof. Ice isn't exactly a strong material for structural use and using using it stationary precludes having to stick the chunks together. Not much more strength than a rubble pile possibly held loosely in place by a light structure of some common metal like aluminum? The habitat itself would be made principally of carbon instead of metals. Much stronger and lighter, and possibly more available in kuiper belt objects than metals although this might not apply if the habitat was made of asteroidal material and in that case even the waste material would be rock instead of ice. If I remember correctly there is also the problem of countering the rotation of the of the habitat. In some of the versions this is countered by having twin cylinders rotating opposite each other. I'm not sure how important this would be. Wouldn't this material be limited due to borons rarity?

You might notice the ice layer I suggested had nothing to do with stopping interior heat from escaping. If we used ice to protect the inner rotating structure from radiation w wouldn't need the magnetic field.

??? I was speaking about how to protect the inhabitants from radiation in space. How is using scraps material to but a shell around the habitat a cost of a lot of energy? I wouldn't expect it to, I was speaking about the problem of particle radiation in space.

As far as I know no potential dyson Swarms have been detected but if controlled fusion is possible th eneed for a dyson swarm evaporates. An artificial biosphere might require the occasional "topping up" of volities and trace elements. The problems really present when you are trying to maintain a biosphere over very long time frames. Radiation can be controlled by placing your habitat inside a shell constructed of the waste materials left over after constructing your habitat, a thick non rotating ice shell should do quite well and we can generate quite powerful magnetic fields as well.

Unregulated, unchained, Capitalism.

The first three are scientifically accurate portrayals of what is possible with our current technology. The others were indeed fictional but I did point that out. The fictional habitats were inspired by the possible reality of the others. We, as a species, need to dream, need inspiration, the fictional habitats may not be possible, the Niven Ring is definitely not possible but is a concept taken to its absolute limit. A simple can shaped object a few kilometers across and rotating for artificial gravity on its inside surface is well within the realms of possibility and is the only practical way to generate artificial gravity we know of. I think there are many reasons planets would not be in demand and possibly ignored completely except as raw materials. Artificial habitats make much more sense. Millions of times the surface area of the Earth could be created using artificial habitats like O'Neill Cylinders , Stanford Torus , McKendree Cylinders or just can shaped shaped habitats lighted from the inside rotated for artificial gravity and even have natural esque type habitats on the inner surface of these objects. These or other artificial habitats could be manipulated to the heart's content of who ever creates them and only have familiar life forms on board. Problems would be encountered on real planets. Planets would have problems ranging from viri to bacteria to fungus but more likely the possibility of environmental poisons like trace elements, too much of some minor gas in the atmosphere or too much environmental toxins like mercury or arsenic or some other poison that would affect them we don't know of. Life is amazingly well evolved to fit its habitat and colonising a strange hut natural world would be fraught by hazards an artificial habitat would not have to worry about. Is this better?

I think there are many reasons planets would not be in demand and possibly ignored completely except as raw materials. Artificial habitats make much more sense. Millions of times the surface area of the Earth could be created using artificial habitats like O'Neill Cylinders , Stanford Torus , McKendree Cylinders or just can shaped shaped habitats lighted from the inside rotated for artificial gravity and even have natural esque type habitats on the inner surface of these objects. These or other artificial habitats could be manipulated to the heart's content of who ever creates them and only have familiar life forms on board. "There are fictional habitats that are beyond our capabilities but more advanced. Banks Orbitals , Bishop Ring, or if you really want to step outside reality a Niven Ring. None of these are possible with our own limited science and are probably not possible at all." Banks Orbital Bishop Ring Niven Ring Lot of fun to speculate about but real problems would be encountered on real planets. Planets would have problems ranging from viri to bacteria to fungus but more likely the possibility of environmental poisons like trace elements, too much of some minor gas in the atmosphere or too much environmental toxins like mercury or arsenic or some other poison that would affect them we don't know of. Life is amazingly well evolved to fit its habitat and colonising a strange hut natural world would be fraught by hazards an artificial habitat would not have to worry about.

This is so funny and it never gets old!

Are you expecting them to colonise planets? There could be thousands of artificial colonies orbiting our sun and we would be unaware of them. Interesting, I'll have to check that out. I am aware of Jacques Vallee and his work with J. Allen Hynek I wasn't aware of this book. Really? Denigrating a comment instead of giving some data to suggest it is wrong in some way is how we should be rolling here?

Arsenic has been suggested as a replacement but much like carbon other possibilities suffer from problems due to simply being similar doesn't mean able to replace.

Not what I meant, the rarity of phosphorus in the universe is what I was referring to. We have an unusually high amount of phosphorus in our neck of the space woods.

The idea of Clark Tech, FTL is chief among them, suggests that we already know enough about how the universe works to be able to limit what aliens can do. I tend to agree with this, the idea of magical tech and or super beings doesn't sit well with me of course not more than a century or so ago we thought a great many things were impossible or simply unknown to us. Known unknowns and unknown unknowns, sometimes referred to as black swan events. Looking outside the box shouldn't mean we know enough to flatly know where the box begins and ends or even if there is a box. I'm not sure that is justified, sometimes serendipity plays a big part in science. I don't think anyone was expecting photographic plates to result in the finding of radioactivity. There are ?? stars within 100 light years of Earth, with a google search I seem to be getting a wide array of answers from 76 to 5900, I'm not sure which is accurate. You are assuming a Star Trek type pattern of exploring/colonising the galaxy. A more rational method would be either sending out intelligent machines to do the job or sending out colonizers who get to a new star system, colonise with artificial habitats and then send out their own colonizers to new star systems. Habitable planets are not required and maybe even ignored completely except for a few specialists looking to study life and or aliens. It might take several million years but that is a blink of the eye in deep time. Good question but it's also possible that to them our weapons are no more dangerous than thrown rocks to one of our own weapons systems.

My point exactly, we need to step up our game on detecting small faint IR targets. Are any of them really meant to detect tiny faint objects inside our solar system? Not a new direction for me, this is something I've been suggesting for many years off and on. Are you assuming that Aliens would need to detect "us" to be here? A galaxy wide civilization (not really possible IMHO) might just be slowly colonising the galaxy via artificial space habitats. This could be done in a few million years, planets in general of inhabited planets specifically might be ignored except for individuals or groups having an interest in rising primitives. The Earth a been detectable for billions of years via spectrographic studies of our atmosphere via telescopes. Clark Tech.

Again I would suggest checking out these papers/reports from 1968 very suggestive of something highly unusual happening at Minot Air Force Base in 1968. It has to start someplace if it's going to start at all. All we can know is that under the laws of physics we know an object that uses energy has to give off waste heat. A spacecraft powered by nuclear energy would be difficult to really hide due to it giving off waste heat as part of it's operation of homeostasis if not direct propulsion. I am sure it might give off other sources of energy such as neutrinos but I don't think we have the capability to detect those from a distance and at such low levels as even controlled fusion might release them. I see no reason why infrared should be impossible, difficult possibly but not impossible.

Yeah, it would be more difficult that you might think, most of our infrared telescopes are looking for planetary sized bodies not tiny low level sources. I'm sure there are other ways, this one is just my own dog and pony show. Yes but the ability to actually pinpoint a source varies greatly. A planet is much easier to see than a tiny object in terms of raw power output. Just like seeing Jupiter is easier than seeing one of Jupiter's tiny moons in visible light.

I spent most of the night trying to find out where I got the debunking and how or why i inserted it into the Science Channel video. I couldn't find it, I am truly sorry, but I stand behind the rest of what I posted in this thread including the Minot Base papers about the UFO seen from a 52 bomber and tracked on radar. I also stand behind my contention that we will not credible evidence by passively waiting. I am assuming that a civilization capable of star travel will be beyond us technologically a similar amount as we are beyond a stone age culture isolated on a island. We are a couple thousand years beyond the island culture and just as isolated from the greater galaxy as the islanders are from us. A galaxy spanning culture would be by necessity as much as a million years beyond us and have motivations and capabilities we can not conceive of any more than the islanders can conceive of our motivations and or capabilities. Their knowledge of us is dictated almost completely by us as our knowledge of an advanced civilization would be dictated by them.

I have to admit I didn't know what the video showed, I had seen the full episode about a year ago and I swear I thought it showed the idea of the object being sensationalized and then debunked. This is a common theme for these videos NASA's Unexplained Videos. Either I am simply misremembering or they intentionally edited this to advertise their channel and try and get people to buy the entire episode. I am sorry, I do not know what to say, I distinctly remember the build up and then the admission of how it was all hype and they explained in some detail why it was hype but this short video only shows the build up. I am genuinely at a loss, I watched parts of this video and even remember the way they slowly debunked the entire thing going into great detail about the rotation rates not being as fast as claimed and how the communications disruption was due to a software glitch and how this had resulted in the entire alien claims. I hope I am just remembering the entire video and mistakenly inserted bit of the whole video into this one accidentally from memory... either that or I have slipped a cog. I am embarrassed, I do not blame you guys for doubting my credibility, hell I doubt my credibility, I see no way forward on this at this time.

The phosphorus problem has been suggested as a resolution to the Fermi Paradox.

I saw a car yesterday here in my home state of NC covered by various right wing stickers verifying the the subhuman intelligence of the driver and most prevalent was "Desantis 2024" stickers... it was a small compact car and I drive a large 4X4... deliver me from temptation o lord.

How do we know this to be the case? I will not continue to defend that which i wasn't defending to begin with, the earth is held together mainly by gravity, a small body like arawn is not held together by it's gravity alone any more than a glacier is held together by its own gravity. I really wish you would actually read what I am posting instead of reading what you want to see into my posts. Have you realized i never suggest the Arawan story was true but that it resembled what we might expect to find if aliens were currently present in our solar system? The reason so many tried to suggest it was alien is the assumed oddness of it but it wasn't enough to make that assertion. Only hype by people who had an agenda made those claims. I said this, several times now, please adjust your jets to the reality of the situation. And yet we have many tens of thousands of sightings/reports, many hundreds if not thousands at least are completely inexplicable. If you go by standards released by the US Air force this number should be in the 10% range, you would have to extrapolate from the numbers of sightings investigated just by the US gov and apply those percentages to the world wide reports. The raw numbers are impressive, I doubt the true number of unknown unknowns is that high but it still has to be significant. Even one real alien sighting is world changing. I stand by my assertion that just passively collecting data will never result in sufficient evidence to conclude anything. The concept is much further outside our experience/ability for us to ever obtain the indisputable evidence required to accept the idea unless the evidence is granted to us by the "aliens" themselves if we manage to step up our own collection game and obtain evidence outside the current possible parameters of data collection being employed. ie Just waiting for the evidence to come to us will not work.