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Would the world be a better place without religion?


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#561 Bender

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 12:16 AM

The "ethics" that religion brings us is nothing but universal rules required for a social group to function, with some extra's. We can do without the extra's added by religion (as illustrated by your Inka example, where the practices were the result of religion). The main purpose of the extra's is usually to increase the power of the (religious) leaders anyway. That's why a secular government is superior.


Edited by Bender, 16 March 2017 - 12:17 AM.

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#562 Raider5678

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 01:39 PM

The "ethics" that religion brings us is nothing but universal rules required for a social group to function, with some extra's. We can do without the extra's added by religion (as illustrated by your Inka example, where the practices were the result of religion). The main purpose of the extra's is usually to increase the power of the (religious) leaders anyway. That's why a secular government is superior.

Right.

The United States thrived under a religious government when it first began.

Perhaps you think it didn't?


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#563 Prometheus

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 01:55 PM

The "ethics" that religion brings us is nothing but universal rules required for a social group to function, with some extra's. We can do without the extra's added by religion (as illustrated by your Inka example, where the practices were the result of religion). The main purpose of the extra's is usually to increase the power of the (religious) leaders anyway. That's why a secular government is superior.

 

I agree, but the 'nothing but' is a bit misleading. We all like to believe modern morality is so obvious it couldn't ever have been otherwise. But our morality has taken millennia to develop: there is nothing obvious about it. Discussions thousands of years ago about rape say, were likely as loaded as discussions today about say, euthanasia (consider marital rape is still legal in many places, and only recently illegal in Western law). It is similar to science in that it has developed slowly based on the thoughts of proceeding people and a little more quickly when the occasional person who had deep insight pops up (to be clear only in that aspect do i believe it is similar to science).

 

The Old Testament states an eye for an eye, but it was an improvement to older ethical systems in which the lose of an eye could be repaid with death or more: it states no more than an eye for an eye. Whether we like it or not, and whether for good or bad, religion has contributed significantly to the modern moral landscape - which is one reason why i believe religion is still relevant to modern morality: if only as a reminder of where we have from.

 

 

The United States thrived under a religious government when it first began.

 

I thought the US government was areligious when it first began?


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#564 zapatos

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 02:00 PM

Right.

The United States thrived under a religious government when it first began.

Perhaps you think it didn't?

While certain members of the government have always been religious, the US government itself has never been a 'religious government'.


Edited by zapatos, 16 March 2017 - 02:00 PM.

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And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it. -MP

"As a good christian, I'm always going to disagree with any proof you try to give me." -Peter BE cimp

#565 Itoero

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 05:06 PM

I'm pretty sure there was life long before there was religion. Life with religion on this planet is the exception, not the norm.

True, but there was never life without the properties that evolved into religion.
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#566 zapatos

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 06:40 PM

True, but there was never life without the properties that evolved into religion.

What properties of bacteria evolved into religion?


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And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it. -MP

"As a good christian, I'm always going to disagree with any proof you try to give me." -Peter BE cimp

#567 Bender

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 07:37 PM

 

I agree, but the 'nothing but' is a bit misleading. We all like to believe modern morality is so obvious it couldn't ever have been otherwise. But our morality has taken millennia to develop: there is nothing obvious about it. Discussions thousands of years ago about rape say, were likely as loaded as discussions today about say, euthanasia (consider marital rape is still legal in many places, and only recently illegal in Western law). It is similar to science in that it has developed slowly based on the thoughts of proceeding people and a little more quickly when the occasional person who had deep insight pops up (to be clear only in that aspect do i believe it is similar to science).

 

The Old Testament states an eye for an eye, but it was an improvement to older ethical systems in which the lose of an eye could be repaid with death or more: it states no more than an eye for an eye. Whether we like it or not, and whether for good or bad, religion has contributed significantly to the modern moral landscape - which is one reason why i believe religion is still relevant to modern morality: if only as a reminder of where we have from.

I mostly agree, but the religious morality I know of isn't very nuanced, needs lots of interpretation to apply it to the present and is far behind secular morality in terms of equality and liberty. Except for a history lesson, which has its value, I do not agree that religion is still relevant to modern morality. If anything, it is holding us back.


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#568 dimreepr

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 08:21 PM

I mostly agree, but the religious morality I know of isn't very nuanced, needs lots of interpretation to apply it to the present and is far behind secular morality in terms of equality and liberty. Except for a history lesson, which has its value, I do not agree that religion is still relevant to modern morality. If anything, it is holding us back.

 

Not again, is it ground hog day?

 

I'm sorry, it's not you, but I've gone over this time and again.

 

Before I get into it, please read this:

 

https://en.wikipedia...iki/God_is_dead


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#569 Itoero

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 08:52 PM

What properties of bacteria evolved into religion?

I have no idea.
Evolution works via cause and effect and is a continuous process so there must have been properties which enabled the evolution/development of that what we call 'religion'.

Edited by Itoero, 16 March 2017 - 08:54 PM.

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It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out how Nature is. Physics concerns what we say about Nature.

#570 zapatos

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 10:33 PM

I have no idea.
Evolution works via cause and effect and is a continuous process so there must have been properties which enabled the evolution/development of that what we call 'religion'.

 


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And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it. -MP

"As a good christian, I'm always going to disagree with any proof you try to give me." -Peter BE cimp

#571 Bender

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 10:44 PM

 

Not again, is it ground hog day?

 

I'm sorry, it's not you, but I've gone over this time and again.

 

Before I get into it, please read this:

 

https://en.wikipedia...iki/God_is_dead

I didn't say my statement was new or original ;).


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#572 Prometheus

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 12:17 AM

I mostly agree, but the religious morality I know of isn't very nuanced, needs lots of interpretation to apply it to the present and is far behind secular morality in terms of equality and liberty. Except for a history lesson, which has its value, I do not agree that religion is still relevant to modern morality. If anything, it is holding us back.

 

I largely agree too, but where we disagree is interesting. Secular morality exceeded most religious morality some time back, and is now a hindrance to human progression. That is not the same as religion being irrelevant. 

 

It is relevant for two reasons. One, which we have touched upon, is that they contain the history of much of modern morality. By analogy, the events and people that have shaped your personal morality are not just some things from your past that you can do without: they fundamentally shaped how you make moral decisions today. So too human history has shaped our morality today, and understanding this history helps us make sense of how we came to our current state and how best to proceed. 

 

But perhaps more importantly, the vast majority of the world is religious and uses religion to make ethical decisions. It say religion is irrelevant to any moral discussion is to say the majority voice on Earth is irrelevant because a minority has exceeded such retrograde thought and knows better.

 

In my opinion such sentiments are partially responsible for the wave of populism sweeping through the Western world: many people are getting sick of being considered irrelevant. Instead of telling people they are irrelevant we need to find some way of engaging with them, as unpalatable as that may seem. This means learning to engage with religion as it seems many of the disenfranchised seem to be religious.


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The wild geese do not intend

To cast their reflection

The water has no mind

To retain their image.

 

 

To naively frown upon split infinitives.

 

www.senseaboutscience.org/

 


#573 Bender

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 02:49 PM

You have a point.


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#574 Itoero

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 02:26 PM

Why didn't you reply (with words)on what I said?
You don't believe that we are related to the first micro organisms?

Edited by Itoero, 18 March 2017 - 02:28 PM.

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There are some things so serious you have to laugh at them.
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It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out how Nature is. Physics concerns what we say about Nature.

#575 zapatos

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 06:57 PM

Why didn't you reply (with words)on what I said?

Because I was left speechless by the speed and distance you were able to move the goalposts from one post to the next, while failing to provide any support or meaningful arguments.
 
You started with:
 
"I don't think a world without religion would be possible... A world without religion would be a world without life..." 
 
After being trivially proved wrong you completely changed direction and claimed that the earliest life had certain properties that evolved into religion:
 
"...but there was never life without the properties that evolved into religion..."
 
Finally, after being asked to provide a list of those properties in bacteria you moved onto a complete dodge and another utterly meaningless claim:
 
"I have no idea.
Evolution works via cause and effect and is a continuous process so there must have been properties which enabled the evolution/development of that what we call 'religion'."

 
You may as well have claimed that at approximately 1,000,000 years after the Big Bang the universe contained properties that enabled Chopin to one day compose The Minute Waltz while scratching his ass with his left hand. It may be true but it tells us absolutely nothing and has nothing to do with whether or not life is possible without religion.


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And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it. -MP

"As a good christian, I'm always going to disagree with any proof you try to give me." -Peter BE cimp

#576 MonDie

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 03:42 PM

This might help to advance the evolution discussion a bit.

 

https://en.wikipedia...ndrel_(biology)



In evolutionary biology, a spandrel is a phenotypic characteristic that is a byproduct of the evolution of some other characteristic, rather than a direct product of adaptive selection.

The term originated during the Roman era as an architectural word for the roughly triangular space between the tops of two adjacent arches and the ceiling. These spaces were not actually utilized until later on, when artists realized they could make designs and paint in these small areas, enhancing the overall design of the building. Stephen Jay Gould, a paleontologist at Harvard, and Richard Lewontin, a population geneticist, borrowed the word to apply to secondary byproducts of adaptations that were not necessarily adaptive in themselves.


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#577 Commander

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 07:20 AM

The World might be a BETTER or WORSE Place without Religion - one can not predict but the World will certainly be a Better Place with Religious Harmony !


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:-)


#578 Raider5678

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 11:40 AM

The World might be a BETTER or WORSE Place without Religion - one can not predict but the World will certainly be a Better Place with Religious Harmony !

I hate to say it, but he's right.


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Absolutes lead to misunderstanding

misunderstanding leads to frustration

Frustration leads to anger.

Anger leads to the dark-side.

The dark-side leads to dislikes.





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