Atoms In Bose or Fermi statistics, , what does it mean ? And what state are the particles in ?

 

Mike

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_(physics)

 

Above describes the concept of intrinsic spin and its use in defining Bose-Einstein and Fermi-Dirac statistics.

Specifically, from that link, "fermions obey the Pauli exclusion principle; that is, there cannot be two identical fermions simultaneously having the same quantum numbers"

 

Bosons can all collapse into the same state (e.g. in Bose-Einstein condensation)

 

But this is all based on them being identical

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identical_particles

So from this it would appear ?

 

Some particles , must be identicle for their operation ,

Other particles/molecules must be different in their state for their particular operation to function?

 

Mike

So from this it would appear ?

 

Some particles , must be identicle for their operation ,

Other particles/molecules must be different in their state for their particular operation to function?

 

Mike

 

 

What do you mean by operation?

What do you mean by operation?

 

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Well that electron ,over there CAN be identical to this electron over here . But if the two electrons are both attached to the same nucleus , they have to be different states ( Pauli Exclusion Principle ) if I have understood correctly ?

 

Namely it's operating ( operation ) as part of a whole atom . Presumably , if it came from afar off , if it was drawn into the atom, it would adjust or be adjusted , as it came into orbit ?

 

As per my illustration of an axel and wheel . Apart , they can be identical ! But operating as an assembly , one would need to be slightly different , or the wheel would just Jam up ?

 

 

Mike

Edited September 5, 20169 yr by Mike Smith Cosmos

No, whether fermions or bosons, they are indistinguishable from similar quantum particles. An electron is an electron, and there is no way to tell them apart.

Fermions, like the electron, however, have to fit into certain 'slots' when in a system. And once the 'slot' is occupied, it is full and no more can fit. We can then, associate that particular electron with that 'slot', or state.

No, whether fermions or bosons, they are indistinguishable from similar quantum particles. An electron is an electron, and there is no way to tell them apart.

Fermions, like the electron, however, have to fit into certain 'slots' when in a system. And once the 'slot' is occupied, it is full and no more can fit. We can then, associate that particular electron with that 'slot', or state.

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Got it ! So it's the ' slot ' or ( energy band , spin requirement , or other requirement for taking up that 'slot' ,) that is the difference , that the electron ' takes on' , if it enters the atoms ' zone' ( if it were , a bit like an crumpled overcoat , underneath ,the crumpled overcoat, is a pristine, polished, shiny , electron , identicle to all the rest , ' you need to spin that way sir, if you wish to come in ' . The atom must have a fairly busy , efficient , cloakroom attendant , raking in a good load of 'tips ' ! ) .

 

Wait a minute , maybe I have got that the wrong way round . Maybe, it is the nucleus particles, the fermions , that do all the chopping and changing ?

 

Mike

 

Ps when I first went to Uni in the 1960's , I remember our Physics lecturer , when I struggled then , with what was going on inside the atom. He said go away and read this book written by a then famous atomic physicist ( not sure , " ghost in the atom " or something ) . Where the author made an adventure within an atom of someone following his way around the inside of an atom .

Edited September 6, 20169 yr by Mike Smith Cosmos

Fermions, like the electron, however, have to fit into certain 'slots' when in a system. And once the 'slot' is occupied, it is full and no more can fit. We can then, associate that particular electron with that 'slot', or state.

 

Partly right. Electrons can jump around a little bit from their "slots". The transition elements are full of examples where electrons will jump over to another orbital or even energy level.

Even if already occupied ???

Or do you have more 'examples' of violations of the Pauli Exclusion Principle.

Edited September 13, 20169 yr by MigL

Even if already occupied ???

Or do you have more 'examples' of violations of the Pauli Exclusion Principle.

 

 

Jumping to a new, unoccupied state is not a violation of the PEP. They don't jump to occupied state.

Sorry it didn't come through Swansont.

I was being early morning sarcastic.

I think MigL has confused the word "sarcastic" with the word "wrong".