BlueSpike

Dreams causing real injuries?

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Has there ever been a study to confirm this? It seems similar to the ''nocebo'' effect. Your thoughts?



''There are a lot of stories floating around out there about people who experienced an injury in their dreams and then found real, physical evidence of the wound on their bodies once they awoke. For instance, some people have claimed to have been caught in a fire in their dreams and then woke up to find burn marks on their skin. Other common stories involve people being attacked during their dreams and then waking up to find scratch marks somewhere on their bodies. However, most of these stories are found in chat rooms or message boards, so it’s hard to corroborate if they are true.But, there is one well documented case, reported by famed psychiatrist Ian Stevenson, about an Indian man named Durga Jatav who, during a battle with typhoid fever, had an extremely vivid dream about being held captive in another realm. To keep him from escaping, his dream captors cut his legs off at the knee. Unfortunately, his legs were already severed by the time the captors realized they had the wrong man and didn’t need to keep Jatav after all. When Jatav asked how he could leave with no legs, they offered him several pairs of legs, he picked out his own pair, and then they were miraculously reattached.
While Jatav was having the dream, his body became very cold and at one point his family thought he was dead, yet he revived a few days later. Once he was awake, his sister and neighbor noticed deep fissures around his knees that weren’t there previously. X-ray photographs showed no abnormality below the surface of the skin, which led Jatav and his family to believe the marks came from his dream experience. Dr. Stevenson met Jatav some 30 years later (1979) and took pictures of the still visible scars. Although Stevenson did not witness the event, he apparently believed the story, which was confirmed by all involved, and he even included the account and photographs in his book “Reincarnation and Biology: A contribution to the Etiology of Birthmarks and Birth Defects.”
Obviously there’s no scientific proof to this intriguing account, but it’s not too far-fetched considering what we already know about the power of the brain over the body.'




'Edward Kelly and his co-authors in their book Irreducible Mind refer to a couple of incidents[1]. The first story was reported in the nineteenth century in the book Influence of the Mind on the Body written by an English physician, Daniel Hack Tuke. It concerns a man who dreamed that he had been hit on the chest by a stone and woke up to find a bruise on his chest. Here is the account from Tuke’s book:In the Bibliotheque choisie de Medecine, by Planque, tome vi. p. 103, is the following case: A man, thirty years of age, healthy and robust, saw in a dream a Pole with a stone in his hand, which he threw at his breast. The vivid shock awoke him, and then he found that there was on his chest (dans le même endroit) a round mark, having the appearance of a bruise. Next day there was so much swelling, etc., that a surgeon was requested to see it, who, fearing a slough, scarified the part, and relieved it. The wound healed in a short time. Without more definite information, it would not be safe to build a theory upon this case, but looking at the previous one of the spectre, and others equally well authenticated, there appears no reason to doubt that the dream and the inflammatory action of the skin stood in the relation of cause and effect. [2]''

The third story comes from the Aurobindo Ashram and was reported by Amal Kiran (K.D. Sethna), a disciple of Sri Aurobindo and the Mother. His wife Sehra woke up after a nightmare and was found to have sustained injuries which seemed related to her dream. This is the account as given by Amal Kiran:The time was a little after 2 a.m. on 19 December 1978. I happened to be awake in bed. In the bed across the room Sehra started moaning very piteously. I thought she was doing so in sleep, as on some occasions she had done during a nightmare. As she went on moaning, I spoke loudly to her and then got up and touched her so as to rouse her from sleep.She answered: “Someone has attacked me with a stick and beaten me on my head,” I said: “It’s only a bad dream. Don’t worry.” But she complained of severe pain in the head and shouted to our servant Lakshmi who was sleeping in the next room. I said: “There is no need to wake her. Tell me what you want.” She went on shouting for Lakshmi. I called out also and Lakshmi came in.Before this I had switched on the light. When Lakshmi came, I pulled back from Sehra’s head the counterpane which had been over it. The sight before our eyes was horrible. Above the upper ridge of the left eye there was a huge ugly lump and a swelling along the bone between the eye and the ear. In the middle of the lump was a point where the skin seemed slightly abrased: it was a reddish spot as if the stroke of the stick had especially fallen there.What we saw was unbelievable. How could a beating received on the head in a dream have such a strong physical effect? I have read accounts in journals of occultism in which people getting hurt in dreams showed visible marks. The Mother (Mirra Alfassa) also has in one place spoken of the body showing signs of mishaps experienced in a dream. But never had I witnessed such a consequence and never could I have imagined that so concrete and severe an injury to the body might appear as the result of a nightmare.If I had not been absolutely sure that Sehra had not got up and fallen somewhere, I would not have believed a nightmare had hurt her so grievously. But here was no room for doubt. She had not got up at all after she had been to the bathroom just before retiring at about 10.30 p.m. on the night of the 18th. Besides, if she had fallen in the bathroom or on the way to it or back from it she-would have cried out from that place and not from under her counterpane in bed. I could at once have known — and so would Lakshmi or her daughter who early that night had been sleepless and later asserted that she had not heard Sehra go to the bathroom any time after 10.30 or so. Again, our bathroom door creaks very loudly whenever opened or closed and is likely to wake up anyone who is not too heavy a sleeper. It is quite certain from my own evidence as well as from that of others that the terrible hurt was received during a nightmare.…While drinking her coffee, she recalled that she had started dreaming of going to meet the Mother(Mirra Alfassa). Before she could proceed she was crossed by some being and dealt a blow with a stick. The blow was aimed at her head and meant to break it. Somehow it was diverted to the area of the left eye and it landed on the temple above it.The enormous swelling subsided just a little during the day by getting spread along the temple, but the entire part round the eye became a deep blackish red and the skin below the eye was puffed up. (It took Sehra nearly seven weeks to get back to normal.)The whole event proves how dangerously one can be attacked by a hostile force in one’s sleep. One must always call the Mother’s protection and be on guard even in a dream. People have got up with pain in some parts of the body — e.g. the abdomen — after a nightmare. I was myself once attacked during one of my out-of-the-body rambles several years ago and the sensation was as if the spine had been smashed. But there was no physical injury left. Sri Aurobindo in Savitri has written of how a spiritual worker in the subtle world.

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Sounds more like a real injury occurring during sleep induces the dream, not the other way around.

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But the physical injuries were consistent with the object that hit them in the dream.

 

Look up ''nocebo effect'' I think this is similar

Edited by BlueSpike

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But the physical injuries were consistent with the object that hit them in the dream.

 

Look up ''nocebo effect'' I think this is similar

I did look it up. The mind is quite amazing, isn't it?

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But the physical injuries were consistent with the object that hit them in the dream.

 

You've never had a dream put a different context to an actual occurrence? I had a dream where it started raining on me, then woke up to find a roommate dripping water from a glass onto my head. I've had other dreams where something happening in the real world was explained by my dreams in their own context.

 

Couldn't this be a case where someone thrashed in their sleep, received an injury, and then the brain concocted a dream to make the patterns consistent? That's a big part of what our brains do, figure out patterns.

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But there's something called the nocebo effect.

I don't see why the mind couldn't produce a bruise in response to a dream of being hit with a stone. Thats how the nocebo effect works - the brain thinks the body is injured or being injured, so it causes those injuries physically, even if nothing physical is going on.

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Well, it appears dreams are real.

Only insomuch as people really dream.

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for example how do you explain burn marks appearing on the body when the person dreamt of being burned? theres nothing in a bed which can burn you.

the mind causes burn marks to appear in response to the perception of a burn?

Edited by BlueSpike

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for example how do you explain burn marks appearing on the body when the person dreamt of being burned? theres nothing in a bed which can burn you.

the mind causes burn marks to appear in response to the perception of a burn?

Burns can be produced by friction; think 'rope burn'. Perhaps a reference to stigmata will help in your misunderstanding.

 

...

Some modern research has indicated stigmata are of hysterical origin,[21] or linked to dissociative identity disorders,[22] especially the link between dietary constriction by self-starvation, dissociative mental states and self-mutilation, in the context of a religious belief.[23] Anorexia nervosa cases often display self-mutilation similar to stigmata as part of a ritualistic, obsessive compulsive disorder. A relationship between starvation and self-mutilation has been reported amongst prisoners of war and during famines.[24][25][26] A psychoanalytic study of stigmatic Therese Neumann has suggested that her stigmata resulted from post-traumatic stress symptoms expressed in unconscious self-mutilation through abnormal autosuggestibility.[27] ...

source: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmata

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And how do you self-inflict burn wounds when you're asleep, and correlate them to the area you were burnt in your dream?

Also stigmata proves this.

 

Stigmata would be a form of telekinesis since it would involve the mind separating and tearing the epidermis and dermis from the other skin layers.

So dreams also cause this rare telekinesis in humans?

 

Interesting.

Edited by BlueSpike

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And how do you self-inflict burn wounds when you're asleep, and correlate them to the area you were burnt in your dream?

Also stigmata proves this.

 

Stigmata would be a form of telekinesis since it would involve the mind separating and tearing the epidermis and dermis from the other skin layers.

So dreams also cause this rare telekinesis in humans?

 

Interesting.

No; stigmata is not telekinesis. As I quoted, it is self-mutilation. Self-mutilation in sleep producing a burn is achieved by vigorous rubbing.

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''A psychoanalytic study of stigmatic Therese Neumann has suggested that her stigmata resulted from post-traumatic stress symptoms expressed in unconscious self-mutilation through abnormal autosuggestibility.'

 

That line says stigamata can be caused by the mind.

This means the brain has the ability to physically rip apart the epidermis and dermis, to allow blood to flow out the skin.

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''A psychoanalytic study of stigmatic Therese Neumann has suggested that her stigmata resulted from post-traumatic stress symptoms expressed in unconscious self-mutilation through abnormal autosuggestibility.'

That line says stigamata can be caused by the mind.

This means the brain has the ability to physically rip apart the epidermis and dermis, to allow blood to flow out the skin.

 

No. It means the mind can allow a person to self-mutilate in their sleep.

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unconscious

(not aware of)

 

self-mutilation

 

(hurting one's self)

through

(by the method of)

 

abnormal autosuggestibility

(the brain is abnormally responsive to psychological suggestions, so it causes a physical wound to appear)

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unconscious

(not aware of)

 

self-mutilation

 

(hurting one's self)

through

(by the method of)

 

abnormal autosuggestibility

(the brain is abnormally responsive to psychological suggestions, so it causes a physical wound to appear)

 

So what? Your OP suggests bodily injury occurs without physical action, which is not the case.

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How do you know it's not the case?

 

The mind can affect the body in strange ways.

For example, a hypnotist can actually make physical blisters appear on a person's skin, by merely suggesting it.

The blisters via hypnosis is very famous, I advise you look into it.

This happens without any physical action. All it takes is the person to be hypnotized and then the hypnotist tells the person they've been burnt by something.

Edited by BlueSpike

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How do you know it's not the case?

 

The mind can affect the body in strange ways.

For example, a hypnotist can actually make physical blisters appear on a person's skin, by merely suggesting it.

The blisters via hypnosis is very famous, I advise you look into it.

This happens without any physical action.

How do you know it IS the case? You don't. You are reading something into anecdotal stories that is not evidenced in them.

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We know that the placebo and nocebo effects work.

 

So I don't see why it isn't possible for the brain to produce bruises, bleeding, swelling, blisters etc in response to dreams, if the brain is convinced it's real

For example there was a Japanese study where poison ivy was placed on a blindfolded person's arm - they were told it was harmless

nothing happened to their skin

But then they put the harmless plant onto their skin, telling them it was poison ivy

They developed hives!

 

I'll quote the study later, but a quick search will bring it up

''poison ivy nocebo effect''

Edited by BlueSpike

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We know that the placebo and nocebo effects work.

 

So I don't see why it isn't possible for the brain to produce bruises, bleeding, swelling, blisters etc in response to dreams, if the brain is convinced it's real

For example there was a Japanese study where poison ivy was placed on a blindfolded person's arm - they were told it was harmless

nothing happened to their skin

But then they put the harmless plant onto their skin, telling them it was poison ivy

They developed hives!

 

I'll quote the study later, but a quick search will bring it up

''poison ivy nocebo effect''

The onus is on you to provide the supporting evidence for your thesis.

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I once had this dream, I think I was in my late teens, where some some enemy opponent kicked me in the balls. It was a street-fight like dream. I don't know how the dream got to that part of the plot nor recall, but the guy kicked me in the balls. And what happened, while I was asleep, was that I felt it. That's maddening. Now, a person might say, "Well, you were sleeping the wrong way and injured yourself outside of your dreamstate." Perhaps my pillow or a blanket was between my legs in an uncomfortable way (maybe I was lying on my bed in an poor position unbeknownst to my conscious awareness at the time during my dream, and the dream was manifesting itself as a projection of a causal explanation (real world: pillow is putting pressure on me or laying the "wrong way"; dream world: guy is kicking me in the balls).

 

And so, would I say that I felt pain? Well, it sure felt like pain. At least, it felt like pain. It felt numb and tingling. And I felt as though there was an impact that caused pain. However, the pain felt momentary and not as intense as I would think it would in the real world in a street brawl. I woke up directly after the guy kicking me in the balls; and if I remember correctly, I felt a sensation in my scrotum even after I woke up (and further if I recall accurately, there was nothing to suggest pressure was put on that part of my body while I was sleeping). It was as though the pain was a mocking of the real world. And yeah, I've been kicked in the balls (roughhousing, whatnot). So, I know what it's like. It's a sharp pain and tends to be localized.

 

The dream pain was there; but it didn't seem to accurately represent what the pain would feel like in the real world.

Edited by Genecks

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Pain is an internal reaction, just as you feel a drop when you think you're falling

We're talking about external injuries caused from dreams themselves.

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We're talking about external injuries caused from dreams themselves.

 

No, YOU'RE talking exclusively about that, and accepting it as fact. That's called Begging the Question, and it's a shaky foundation for any argument.

 

Everything that can be found on this subject is full of anecdotal stories that are conflated as evidence (they aren't). Every instance seems to leave an element of doubt as to its authenticity.

 

Occam's Razor says the dream is mirroring reality, and that the injuries are sustained or self-inflicted while the subject slept. There are no records of professional experiments done that would satisfy a scientist that the mind could cause even a bruise without accessing the standard mechanisms that trigger such a process.

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The only logical conclusion is that you are a prophet.

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