How is it possible for small particles with mass or photons with no mass to influence or make fields in far distant places ?

[studiot]

 

well no because , the photon does not dilute as an individual, as far as I know. the single Photon ball....etc

 

I had been discussing the wave theory of light. if you want to quantize it and consider a single photon point emitter, then the uncertainty principle requires that you cannot know in which direction the photon will be emitted.

[swansont]

 

That would infer , that anything that is NOT RESONANT will be transparent. ? or have i got this the wrong way round ?

 

We only see what is happening in the visible spectrum, where most things are one colour or another apart from water, glass and a few other things . but mostly coloured or black and white.

 

Whats happening across all the other frequencies ( vast range ) where are the Resonances and where the transparancies , because we can not see what is going on ?

 

mike

 

 

Resonances are not infinitely sharp; some are quite broad, they can differ in strength, and you can have a lot of them. But if you can avoid the absorption, you will have transparency.

 

Color is tricky because of our eye's response. A lot of things we think are one color are actually many colors.

 

We can "see" what's going on at other frequencies by using the right equipment. The walls of a house are transparent to microwaves in the few GHz range and RF near 100 MHz, for example, which we can tell because a wireless router in one room still "talks" to devices in other rooms and we can listen to FM radio inside. There are glasses and plastics that are opaque to UV, which we know because we don't get a sunburn through them.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

All you need is time; the interesting thing, to me is not so much the fact that the disturbance will eventually reach any distance, given enough time, but that it can influence the entire volume of space spanned by all that distance and just gets thinner and thinner.

Is there any limit to this?

I would say " yes " to it getting thinner and thinner to infinitesimally small thinning, but real , influence from a concentration of particles point of view ( increasing sphere surface area ... Inverse square law ). But that is the density of number of photons per unit area . But this wave nature of the photon . ... I presume travels along its own single , trajectory , but has a small probability wave travelling with it , that does NOT get diluted but remains the same as it started off with , namely it's de broglie probability wave . As regards it's frequency of oscillation as say a photon of radio frequency 100 MHz , I presume it will be buzzing at 100 MHz as it ever was . Intact as it started out .

 

Or have I got this all screwed up ?

 

Mike

Edited March 15, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

Probability is related to amplitude, not frequency. Since the probability must always sum to 1, as a wave spreads out the probability of finding it per unit area decreases, so the amplitude of the probability wave decreases.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Probability is related to amplitude, not frequency. Since the probability must always sum to 1, as a wave spreads out the probability of finding it per unit area decreases, so the amplitude of the probability wave decreases.

Yes but is it:-

Or is it :-

 

Mike

 

I had been discussing the wave theory of light. if you want to quantize it and consider a single photon point emitter, then the uncertainty principle requires that you cannot know in which direction the photon will be emitted.

 

 

As Above

[swansont]

Yes but is it:-

 

Or is it :-

 

 

Neither, as far as I can tell, but then I don't know what question you really have in mind.

 

The probability of finding a photon decreases with the distance (as r²) from an isotropic source. Just as you'd expect classically; the wave function of a photon is given by Maxwell's equations rather than the Schrödinger equation (which is for non-relativistic massive particles).

[studiot]

Since we are discussing a photon travelling along a line, with no other influences, the first one is more appropriate, but there are no wiggles the probability density function is just a bump that moves along with time.

The bump represents the most probable position of the photon at any instant.

 

Wiggles occur when the photon is moving in some potential field (eg gravity since it is not charged), and there are constraints or boundary conditions such as the edge of a block of glass.

 

For simple QM the bump dies away to infinity in both directions,

but for relativistic QM the influence can only reach a certain distance ahead of the photon given by the peak of the bump +ct and the forward tail must zero there.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Since we are discussing a photon travelling along a line, with no other influences, the first one is more appropriate, but there are no wiggles the probability density function is just a bump that moves along with time.

The bump represents the most probable position of the photon at any instant.

 

Wiggles occur when the photon is moving in some potential field (eg gravity since it is not charged), and there are constraints or boundary conditions such as the edge of a block of glass.

 

For simple QM the bump dies away to infinity in both directions,

but for relativistic QM the influence can only reach a certain distance ahead of the photon given by the peak of the bump +ct and the forward tail must zero there.

Well can we take this in steps .like one piece of information at a time .

If we are taking my example of a 100 MHz photon of radio frequency E-M wave. Then using 300,000 kilometers per sec as the speed of R.F. or light .

 

Speed of light ( E.M. PHOTONS)=WAVELENGTHx FREQUENCY

 

300,000,000meters/sec= wavelength x 100,000,000 hz

Wavelength= 300,000,000/100,000,000. = 3 meters

 

Are you impressed ( my head hurts now ) that's why I choose 100,MHz

 

So over that 3 meters like the length of a car . Where is the photon . Mainly ? Is it mainly in the middle 1.5 meters in.

I know it's moving at 300,000km/ hour . But as it flashed by at about a nanosecond a foot , if you could see the photon. (Say only one photon was sent )Where would it mainly be . Remembering that the electric field could be going up and down , and the magnetic field going side to side. Would it be fussing about a rectangular cube 3 meters x 1meter x 1 meter ( if the amplitude is 0.5 meter ) , where this cube came roaring by . Was the probability somehow squashing down the amplitude of the wave , so it was not so high on its leading and trailing edge ( either end of the box ) . Or what . Maybe the fields are not 1 meter high but 1 mm high . So the box would be more like a spear , with a ripple along its 3 m ,length ? Maybe only 0.0001 mm high ?

 

Now I do appreciate now more , that as swansont said before that resonance is the thing . If this 3mx1mx1m boxes come in succession.

 

A) No resonance( transparent ) , they will crash there way through a wall. Or spear their way through , ( if the router is to give you the wi-fi ) .

B) Resonance , ( opaque ) and they will be stopped dead in there tracks , maybe because the waves are higher and can not go through the wall and pile up as a lot of boxes , no doubt ,heating everything up , or ricochet off as a reflected beam of photonics boxes, ready for the next ordeal.

 

Am I getting the picture right ? So the 100 MHz is the Electro Magnetic field oscillation up and down and side to side , zooming by at a frightful speed and the probability wave is completely separate as a fictitious presence indicator as to where in the 3x1x1 box , the oscillating field is ?

what question you really have in mind.

.

As above Edited March 16, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[studiot]

But photons are the modern version of the corpuscular theory, not the wave theory.

 

Let's not mix them please.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

But photons are the modern version of the corpuscular theory, not the wave theory.

 

Let's not mix them please.

Just tell me what the darn things look like , if you could see them ?

 

Mike

[studiot]

Don't forget that the EM equations (sorry I have to mention that word) have axes that plot the Electric and Magnetic field amplitudes (intensities or strengths) against a spatial axis.

So the EM wave is a wiggle of real observable physical quantities.

 

The wave function psi is a complex variable that has real and imaginary parts. It is not a directly measurable physical quantity, but a derived one that 'oscillates' in its own peculiar space.

[swansont]

So over that 3 meters like the length of a car . Where is the photon . Mainly ? Is it mainly in the middle 1.5 meters in.

There's no way to know unless/until the photon interacts. And when it does, it could interact with a tiny atom that just happens to have a transition at 100 MHz, and flip the spin of one of the electrons.

 

 

 

I know it's moving at 300,000km/ hour . But as it flashed by at about a nanosecond a foot , if you could see the photon. (Say only one photon was sent )Where would it mainly be . Remembering that the electric field could be going up and down , and the magnetic field going side to side. Would it be fussing about a rectangular cube 3 meters x 1meter x 1 meter ( if the amplitude is 0.5 meter ) , where this cube came roaring by . Was the probability somehow squashing down the amplitude of the wave , so it was not so high on its leading and trailing edge ( either end of the box ) . Or what . Maybe the fields are not 1 meter high but 1 mm high . So the box would be more like a spear , with a ripple along its 3 m ,length ? Maybe only 0.0001 mm high ?

 

Now I do appreciate now more , that as swansont said before that resonance is the thing . If this 3mx1mx1m boxes come in succession.

 

A) No resonance( transparent ) , they will crash there way through a wall. Or spear their way through , ( if the router is to give you the wi-fi ) .

B) Resonance , ( opaque ) and they will be stopped dead in there tracks , maybe because the waves are higher and can not go through the wall and pile up as a lot of boxes , no doubt ,heating everything up , or ricochet off as a reflected beam of photonics boxes, ready for the next ordeal.

 

Am I getting the picture right ? So the 100 MHz is the Electro Magnetic field oscillation up and down and side to side , zooming by at a frightful speed and the probability wave is completely separate as a fictitious presence indicator as to where in the 3x1x1 box , the oscillating field is ?

As above

The best you could do is know that a waveguide roughly the size of the wavelength (or smaller) would not let the photon through.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

There's no way to know unless/until the photon interacts. And when it does, it could interact with a tiny atom that just happens to have a transition at 100 MHz, and flip the spin of one of the electrons. The best you could do is know that a waveguide roughly the size of the wavelength (or smaller) would not let the photon through.

Of course the wavelength is a dimension , an actual distance say 3 meters but the amplitude is only an intensity, say the intensity of the electric field or the intensity of the magnetic field . Whether it occupies a special area or dimension ? I am not sure.? I think it might do . .? But I presume that will depend on its value ?

 

One can map a static electric field and a static magnetic field so I suppose you could map an alternating or oscillating field . But how big will it be ? Say compared to the wavelength . Anything I suppose ?

 

I suppose what you said originally is the issue . What it resonates with ! So with 100 mhz something 3 meters . A large antenna like an old fashion HHH. TV antenna , Microwaves resonate with water molecules or there abouts , whatever size they are . Light is nanometers if I remember say 700nm ( 700 x 0.000,000,001 meters ) which is small atomic / molecular and x rays and gamma rays suitably smaller still. I suppose the instantaneous field intensity ( magnetic, or electric ) will be governed by the inverse square law. For distance from centre of line of travel of wave .

 

 

Mike

Edited March 16, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

One can map a static electric field and a static magnetic field so I suppose you could map an alternating or oscillating field . But how big will it be ? Say compared to the wavelength . Anything I suppose ?

No, not anything, since the energy is quantized: E = nhv where n is the number of photons. The energy of an EM wave is related to the strength of the field. (via the Poynting vector)

 

I suppose what you said originally is the issue . What it resonates with ! So with 100 mhz something 3 meters . A large antenna like an old fashion HHH. TV antenna , Microwaves resonate with water molecules or there abouts , whatever size they are . Light is nanometers if I remember say 700nm ( 700 x 0.000,000,001 meters ) which is small atomic / molecular and x rays and gamma rays suitably smaller still. I suppose the instantaneous field intensity ( magnetic, or electric ) will be governed by the inverse square law. For distance from centre of line of travel of wave .

 

 

You appear to have missed what I said. RF (100 MHz) or microwaves can interact with an antenna but they can also interact with a single atom. 3 GHz has a wavelength of 10 cm but water molecules are not 10 cm in size! Visible light is a little less than a micron, but atoms are still a thousand times smaller. The QM nature of light means that the wavelength does not tell you how localized an interaction is.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

No, not anything, since the energy is quantized: E = nhv where n is the number of photons. The energy of an EM wave is related to the strength of the field. (via the Poynting vector)

 

 

You appear to have missed what I said. RF (100 MHz) or microwaves can interact with an antenna but they can also interact with a single atom. 3 GHz has a wavelength of 10 cm but water molecules are not 10 cm in size! Visible light is a little less than a micron, but atoms are still a thousand times smaller. The QM nature of light means that the wavelength does not tell you how localized an interaction is.

I have just come out of a hypnotic trance by watching the wikipedia movie of the POYNTING VECTOR :- as follows .

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/DipoleRadiation.gif/300px-DipoleRadiation.gif

 

The second part of your comments I don't quite understand.

 

I understand about the need for resonance. interacting by resonance. I can think of that in terms of similar size , namely wavelength of wave , to physical size of the object being resonated with. But if there is resonance with something far smaller , it must be resonant with another characteristic ( perhaps energy value , or something else ). is that so ? or is it for collision reasons ?

 

If you are right, which I presume you must be, that your comments a few posts ago.

namely :

 

resonant = opaque

not resonant = transparent

 

Must mean that ALL the photons, that came out of the recombination of 300,000 years approx after the Big Bang , sped out across the universe with only two prospects Resonate and be tied up in one way or another . or Go clean through everything for the continuation of time until the photon finds something to resonate with!

 

That is pretty mind blowing ! Because we only see the photons in the small visible portion of the E-M spectrum. but If we looked through figurative eyes able to 'see' all wavelengths from :- Very Low Frequency radio waves, and even lower in frequency, through radio, vhf, uhf,infrared, visible, ultra .violet. x rays, gamma rays,: Then much ,much more would be transparent . We would look through to the bottoms of oceans, through dust clouds in the galaxies , through so much more on earth , through walls, and some way underground, . So much would not resonate and thus look transparent ,in fact be transparent to our gaze. . That is mind blowing !

 

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT6qgT5C6OnsCh50LZWkW47krNQCugryAgbQznzDTPh2t104ftw Recombination

 

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTb4odmz7YwPegtvv6UAPrzYO_edQDBr0zbC5pv2-GTRd3kQDg5 Big Bang to today

 

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQoGiE_fc04bJBwpKLBbkF_3XwtWZ8MjwXgBlT1Leq8aL_f_KCiNQ Seeing to the Edge of the Universe and through walls .

 

mike

Edited March 16, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

I have just come out of a hypnotic trance by watching the wikipedia movie of the POYNTING VECTOR

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/DipoleRadiation.gif/300px-DipoleRadiation.gif

 

The second part of your comments I don't quite understand.

 

I understand about the need for resonance. interacting by resonance. I can think of that in terms of similar size , namely wavelength of wave , to physical size of the object being resonated with. But if there is resonance with something far smaller , it must be resonant with another characteristic ( perhaps energy value , or something else ). is that so ? or is it for collision reasons ?

 

Thinking of it in terms of similar size is wrong, though. That works only for classical systems, not quantum mechanical ones. Resonance in a QM system is primarily about energy — if the energy is wrong there is no interaction. You can't absorb a fraction of a photon. Other restrictions apply as well, so matching a transition energy is not sufficient, but is necessary.

 

 

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Thinking of it in terms of similar size is wrong, though. That works only for classical systems, not quantum mechanical ones. Resonance in a QM system is primarily about energy if the energy is wrong there is no interaction. You can't absorb a fraction of a photon. Other restrictions apply as well, so matching a transition energy is not sufficient, but is necessary.

 

Yes I can follow all that. Be interested to know what the , "so matching a transition energy is not sufficient, but is necessary."goes on to require ?

 

The classical is not wrong though as most short wave antennas are designed to be literally half a wavelength, or quarter wavelength, literally the dimension say for the 100m hertz namely 3 meter wavelength could work and resonate very well with a center fed halfwave dipole ( 1.5 meters long exactly ) tuned to resonance or similarly with an end fed 1/4 wave vertical antenna 75 cm antenna tuned to resonance. Not sure in these instances where the energy match occurs , perhaps in the tuned circuit.

However I do understand about the quantum - photon number match for an exact energy jump ,in an atom .

Edited March 16, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

Yes I can follow all that. Be interested to know what the , "so matching a transition energy is not sufficient, but is necessary."goes on to require ?

 

 

Angular momentum. A photon has quantized angular momentum, so a transition can only occur if the angular momentum changes by that amount.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Angular momentum. A photon has quantized angular momentum, so a transition can only occur if the angular momentum changes by that amount.

Does that mean the photon must have the identically same angular momentum to be resonant ? ( that is to the thing it is being resonant with )

 

Mike

 

Edited March 17, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

Does that mean the photon must have the identically same angular momentum to be resonant ? ( that is to the thing it is being resonant with )

 

Mike

 

 

The initial and final state of the molecule, atom, or nucleus must differ by the angular momentum of the photon

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

 

The initial and final state of the molecule, atom, or nucleus must differ by the angular momentum of the photon

 

Fine . Thanks

 

Still have not got my head totally round what a photon looks like yet.? it has to have some 'presence ' surely

This is not supposed to be it , but if it is an item , it must look like something ?

or https://encrypted-tb...Fe8rGP5rUWmSOqQ

mike

Edited March 17, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

Whatever the photon "looks like" can only be determined by how it interacts.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Whatever the photon "looks like" can only be determined by how it interacts.

 

Yes,but what does it look like, while it is speeding across space and time, winging its way, not yet in an interaction. ~ Unless of course its interacting with whatever we understand space now to be,[ all sorts of bits and pieces ]

 

 

mike

Edited March 17, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

How would we find that out?

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

How would we find that out?

 

The last time I used an oscilloscopes they did have a time base setting in nanoseconds maybe 50 ns . so if a photon or RF signal of 100mhz passes by at one foot per nanosec . some form of electric field detector /sensors and magnetic field sensors , then somehow turn the transmitter down to gating for one photon per sync pulse . sit in the darkest of the dark room , and pulse for one photon at 30 sync pulses per second .The trickiest bit will be getting the stream of single photons at 30 hz. each pulse zinging a 100mhz for one photon worth each symc pulse itself going off once per sync pulse [30 times a second

 

mike

Edited March 17, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos