Ankit Gupta Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Is electron a fundamental particle or not somewhere said it is & somewhere it is not ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensei Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Argument for electron being fundamental is such that it's not decaying to other particles with less energy-mass, as far as we know (unlike f.e. muon- which is decaying to electron and neutrino) Argument for electron not being fundamental is such that it can collide with positron and annihilate producing gamma photons (which also can be absorbed and reemitted at even smaller frequencies, producing even more photons). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_particle "In particle physics, an elementary particle or fundamental particle is a particle whose substructure is unknown, thus it is not known to be composed of other particles." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timo Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 The electron is generally assumed to be an elementary particle, which I assume is what you mean by "fundamental particle". @Sensei: Interaction with positrons is not an argument against the electron being an elementary particle. It would probably not be counted as one if that was an argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ankit Gupta Posted November 23, 2013 Author Share Posted November 23, 2013 But I read on the net that some scientists have broken the electron in three different particle 'spinon - which provide it spin ,holon - for charge and orbiton - for its orbit . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 (edited) Ankit Gupta, on 23 Nov 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:Ankit Gupta, on 23 Nov 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:But I read on the net that some scientists have broken the electron in three different particle 'spinon - which provide it spin ,holon - for charge and orbiton - for its orbit . I found this: http://phys.org/news200828132.html Paper : http://arxiv.org/abs/1004.5431 Edited November 23, 2013 by StringJunky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 But I read on the net that some scientists have broken the electron in three different particle 'spinon - which provide it spin ,holon - for charge and orbiton - for its orbit . They did that in some larger interacting structure and saw collective behavior; it was not with bare electrons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ankit Gupta Posted November 23, 2013 Author Share Posted November 23, 2013 Then what should I conclude is it fundamental or not ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timo Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Is there any reason to believe that I don't know what I am saying? Is there any reason to assume the reply of other random strangers from the Internet is more reliable than mine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 You are basing your question on an apples-to oranges comparison. Yes, an electron is a fundamental particle. When you have a large number of them, the collective behavior can be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ankit Gupta Posted November 24, 2013 Author Share Posted November 24, 2013 Is there any reason to believe that I don't know what I am saying? Is there any reason to assume the reply of other random strangers from the Internet is more reliable than mine?no there is not any specific reason but I just want to clarify it so that if I'll tell it to somebody then it would not be wrong . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imatfaal Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Further to above explanations AJB blogged about this a year or so ago http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ajb/?p=1926 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ankit Gupta Posted November 26, 2013 Author Share Posted November 26, 2013 Now this is more complicated then before to me , please tell me what did experiment tell , what are holon ,spinon ,orbiton , and how are they linked to electron ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 ... what are holon ,spinon ,orbiton , and how are they linked to electron ? Loosley in certain conditions you can think of the electrons properties as being distributed between these three pesudo-particles. You can think of an electron as a bound state of the holon, spinon and orbiton. Amazingly you can have sistuations in which these pesudo-particles are not confined. In this sense we can separate the properies of the electron. Note this is collective behaviour and we have not actually split any electrons, just distributed their properties amoung pesudo-particles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearOfNH Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 (edited) Given the h-o-s pseudo-particles are just a way of modeling things, a follow-on question is: can we extend that model to other particles -- elementary or not -- as well? What would a photon be "made of"? Frequency (freqon)? Anything else? (If not, then in some sense a photon is even more fundamental than an electron). Take a holon away from a proton and give it to a nearby neutron and >POOF< you've switched the N and P. I know this sounds crazy and I'm not gonna pursue the notion any further, else I'd have started a new thread. Just an idle thought to kickstart the subconscious before a 4-day weekend. Edited November 28, 2013 by BearOfNH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 Given the h-o-s pseudo-particles are just a way of modeling things, a follow-on question is: can we extend that model to other particles -- elementary or not -- as well? What would a photon be "made of"? Frequency (freqon)? Anything else? (If not, then in some sense a photon is even more fundamental than an electron). Take a holon away from a proton and give it to a nearby neutron and >POOF< you've switched the N and P. I know this sounds crazy and I'm not gonna pursue the notion any further, else I'd have started a new thread. Just an idle thought to kickstart the subconscious before a 4-day weekend. Neutrons and protons exist as single particles. The collective behavior here is seen in collections of many particles (some reasonable fraction of a mole) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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