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To those against war on Iraq

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The families of the palestines murdered by israel and the families of the dead iraqi children starved by sanctions see america as exactly that. the only thing america and europe have brought to the middle east is strife so far through the beyond disgraceful double standards to israel.

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I'm talking about the Middle East here, not just Iraq.

 

And even if I were just talking about Iraq, the families of Hussein's victims still make up only a minority of the population. As tragic as their losses are it does not mean that the rest of the country are going to turn tail on decades of interference and dogma from both sides and welcome the allied forces with open arms.

 

Ever hear the phrase "the Devil you know"?

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Originally posted by fafalone

We'll see.

No we won't.

 

Regardless the outcome of the coming conflict in Iraq, there is no way that you would interpret any media coverage in the US in terms of "man, the ungrateful Iraqis we liberated from tyranny really hate us".

 

All it will take is one picture of some smiling orphan on TV and BAM, you've "won" the "argument" and all of the Middle East love America.

 

I thought talking to Adam was like butting a brick wall until this thread started.

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Well the news just said American armoured divisions had gone to forward positions close to the iraqi border and there were far more than planes than usual taking off to patrol thr no fly zone. looks like the invasion is tonight.

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It's plainly obvious the invasion will begin within the first hour of the deadline expiring.

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Originally posted by Sayonara³

No we won't.

 

Regardless the outcome of the coming conflict in Iraq, there is no way that you would interpret any media coverage in the US in terms of "man, the ungrateful Iraqis we liberated from tyranny really hate us".

 

All it will take is one picture of some smiling orphan on TV and BAM, you've "won" the "argument" and all of the Middle East love America.

 

I thought talking to Adam was like butting a brick wall until this thread started.

 

 

Iraq has used WOMD.

 

Iraq has not given any evidence they destroyed their WOMD.

 

Iraq has some degree (granted a small one, but still existant) with Al Qaeda.

 

Saddam is a murderous dictator by ANY measure.

 

Saddam is a clear threat to his neighbors.

 

 

Yet we shouldn't do anything about it? You, sir, are a brick wall.

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Originally posted by fafalone

Iraq has used WOMD.

True

 

Iraq has not given any evidence they destroyed their WOMD.

True if you mean "all of them".

 

Iraq has some degree (granted a small one, but still existant) with Al Qaeda.

False according to actual intel, true according to the media. Jury out on that one.

 

Saddam is a murderous dictator by ANY measure.

True.

 

Saddam is a clear threat to his neighbors.

True-ish.

 

Yet we shouldn't do anything about it?

Again, that's not what we're arguing about in this thread. It's the USA's methodology that is being questioned, not their aims.

 

You, sir, are a brick wall.

False.

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Peaceful means have FAILED. Iraq has been doing the same thing FOR 12 YEARS. They CONTINUE TO LIE to the world.

 

Why is there any hope Iraq would ever have a sudden change of heart and disarm? They won't even do it with the threat of war.

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I could say things like "If the USA has no other motive than dealing with a dangerous regime that threatens its neighbours, why has it taken the administration so long to act, and why is the administration using such flimsy excuses as the spectre of Al-Qaeda in order to justify its actions", but based on the fact that you haven't even taken such points into consideration in any way during this thread I'm just not going to bother.

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I still have yet to hear any conclusive argument about how iraq is any kind of threat to the US security. as Robin Cook said they have battlefield munitions but do they have the capability for intercontinental, city strikes? can they strike america in any meaningful way?

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Yes, I have

 

and i have already explained:

 

We have waited so long because of leftist pacifist pressure who subscribe to the false idealogy that Iraq won't do anything.

 

Everyone knows the Al Qaeda link is weak, but as I've said, it's there.

 

You have just dismissed these in a blind hope that peace is the best solution... but it's not when you're dealing with a madman like Saddam.

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Originally posted by fafalone

Yes, I have

 

and i have already explained:

 

We have waited so long because of leftist pacifist pressure who subscribe to the false idealogy that Iraq won't do anything.

It doesn't seem to be stopping you now. "What changed?", you should be asking.
Everyone knows the Al Qaeda link is weak, but as I've said, it's there.
That must be from the special intel reports I heard you get :P
You have just dismissed these in a blind hope that peace is the best solution... but it's not when you're dealing with a madman like Saddam.
Again, NO, that is not the case. I am not in the habit of summarily dismissing anything without consideration of the facts at hand.

 

Obviously peace IS the best solution - however, this does NOT mean sitting doing nothing and hoping that everything turns out okay. It means looking for a third option, trying more creative diplomatic approaches, anything other than wading in like Rambo and flattening a couple of cities.

 

Which brings us back to the point of the thread, conveniently. We all KNOW that this action is more or less necessary. What you fail to understand is we are trying to establish how it might be justified morally. The simple fact alone that it is necessary is NOT ENOUGH.

 

Incidentally, Saddam Hussein does not appear to be a madman. He appears to be ruthless, cunning and power hungry.

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Its hard to see how this war is justified when America finds nothing wrong with the state of Israel's agression and a far worse record of ignoring Un resolutions than Iraq. Isarel scraes me because its treatment of arabs leads to hatred which majorly contributed to the rise of terrorism responsible for the 9/11 attacks and the current security threat to the US and the UK. Am i scared of a gas attack by the iraqi republican guard? no. Israel is the far more serious problem in the middle east.

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Its hard to see how this war is justified when America finds nothing wrong with the state of Israel's agression and a far worse record of ignoring Un resolutions than Iraq.

 

Israel's aggression? The whole thing is a viscious circle, but Israel is hardly the sole perpetraitor.

 

Isarel scraes me because its treatment of arab

 

Israel has tons of Arab citizens, and they have the same rights as any Israeli and are treated the exact same way.

 

. Am i scared of a gas attack by the iraqi republican guard? no.

 

Are you scared of gas attacks from Israel?

 

Israel is the far more serious problem in the middle east.

 

It wasn't Israeli's who flew the planes into the WTC. The terrorists are the threat.

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Originally posted by blike

It wasn't Israeli's who flew the planes into the WTC.

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Originally posted by blike

 

It wasn't Israeli's who flew the planes into the WTC. The terrorists are the threat.

 

 

The gas man won't tell you:

 

It isn't the leaking gas pipe that is the problem, the lack of oxygen in your lungs is what is killing you.

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Originally posted by fafalone

 

Everyone knows the Al Qaeda link is weak, but as I've said, it's there.

 

You have just dismissed these in a blind hope that peace is the best solution... but it's not when you're dealing with a madman like Saddam.

 

The link to Al Qaeda is tenunus, Al Qaeda is in the Middle East and so is Iraq. Did you know Iraq held a one minutes silence for Sept 11? They followed the silence with a silence to contemplate the children who died of malnutrition from the trade embargo but they sill held a silence.

 

The link between Al Qaeda and the US, however, is strong seeing as the US trained them and supplied wepons. Stop trying to link Iraq as the source of all evil.

 

Since when was Peace not the best solution? Did I miss something in the creation of a utopian society? If war is better than peace in your ideology, you might begin to understand why people are disagreeing with you.

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Originally posted by fafalone

[...]We have waited so long because of leftist pacifist pressure who subscribe to the false idealogy that Iraq won't do anything.[...]

I don't know what your media tell you, but actually Iraq hasn't done anything "bad" in the last 12 years. Does this mean nothing at all?

Other countries, e.g. Israel, have attacked others. You still support them.

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Originally posted by fafalone

[...] They CONTINUE TO LIE to the world. [...]

And your country does not? Your country always states only the truth. That's just ignorant. Every government (and especially yours) do certainly lie to their own citizens and to the rest of the world. But can you justify an attack just because of a lie?

 

Anyway, it's all too late by now. Apparently, Iraq was attacked tonight by American bombs. They will have been certainly victims tonight and there will follow more in the following days, weeks, months. Still, I do not see any kind of justification of this war. I mean some people have tried to convince those not persuaded of the need of an attack but they have failed, at least regarding me. An argument based on facts and not on misinterpretations, speculations, interpretations still has not been mentioned.

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It's a fact that Saddam is a brutal dictator who kills his own people and uses them as human shields, and that he has WOMD. If you disagree, that's your own blindness.

 

And we don't lie about our weapons like Saddam does... everyone knows we have enough nukes to wipe out all life on Earth 100 times over.

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No it wasnt Israelis who flew the 9/11 planes but it was terrorists who were responding in part to Israel's occupation of Palestine. If a free Palestinian state were declared and Israel stopped bulldozing arab houses and farmland and illegally occupying territory then this would help tremendously in reducing western hatred from arab people across the world. I dont see how bombing refugee camps with helicopter gunships is any kind of meaningful response to suicide bombings.

 

By agression i mean ignoring UN resolutions for 30 years to withdraw from occupied Palestine and help create a free Palestinian state. Surely this would help Israelis lead more peaceful lives as well?

 

the gas attacks im scared of come from fundementalists who despise Israel and wish to vent this fury on the countries that support Israel.

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No it wasnt Israelis who flew the 9/11 planes but it was terrorists who were responding in part to Israel's occupation of Palestine. If a free Palestinian state were declared and Israel stopped bulldozing arab houses and farmland and illegally occupying territory

 

"Illegally occupying territory"....The territory Israel took over when it was attacked by arab states? Its not fair to attack Israel, then complain when Israel defeats you and takes some of your land. This is Israel's land, there is no Palestine.

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As far as I'm concerned Israel and Palestine need to go away. The only reason we're so friendly with Israel is because of religion and because they essentially run our intelligence networks (classified information).

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there is no Palestine? Thats the attitude that causes suicide bombings right there. Security Council resolution 242 is based on the fact that acquisition of land by war is not acceptable, whether by a defending or invading force. What is also unacceptable by International law is the movement of israeli settlements into this territory in an attempt to expand and colonise. israel illegally annexed East jerusalem in 1980 and resolution 478 states that all israeli administration and law are null and void in this region.

 

legal occupation of a conquered enemy can occur, as will probably be the case with iraq for a period of time, in Germany after WW2 etc. But these were (and in the case of iraq i hope will be) temporary pending a political solution. By continuing to expand and create new settlements on Historically Palestinian land Israel is destroying its citizens chance for peace, which after decades of war must be a memory for them.

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