kenel Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 Here are some interesting excerpts from Space.com explaining how we might be the least intelligent species in our galaxy: " SETI folk are mostly interested in alien intelligence, not the brainpower of the local school kids. But investigating terrestrial IQs may help us estimate how often sentient beings evolve elsewhere. To test human intelligence is straightforward, if controversial. But how can we assess the brainpower of other critters? One approach taken by biologists is to compute an "encephalization quotient," which is really no more than a measure of how weighty the brain is for an animal of a given body size. Of course, bigger bodies usually mean bigger brains (compare – at least in your mind, if not the kitchen – the brain of a rhino to that of a mouse). But sheer size isn’t the whole story. Animals of any given mass have a variety of brain weights. Those with the heftier cerebrums are observed to have more sophisticated behavior, and are ranked as smarter. Humans, it will not surprise you to learn, have the largest brains for their body mass, roughly twice that of their nearest intellectual competitors, the chimps. That factor-of-two difference determines who runs the planet. "In other words, when it comes to the type of intelligence that counts – at least for interstellar signaling – we’re new kids on the galactic block. "What about the other kids? How technically advanced will the aliens be? Keep in mind that the Galaxy has been around for many billions of years longer than the Earth. If extraterrestrials are plentiful, then we can expect them to be in all stages of development. But of course we won’t pick up signals from any that are less advanced than we are. Aliens that SETI can find will be at least as scientifically competent as folks here on Earth. "Frank Drake has estimated the average lifetime of technologically adept civilizations at 10 thousand years. This is not overly optimistic. After all, Homo sapiens has been around for 300,000 years, so another 10 thousand isn’t much. Indeed, it’s a bit of a downer to think that once technology gains a foothold we are near the end of our ride. "Technological progress on Earth, at least recently, has been very fast. Indeed, the growth in computer power – one measure of our prowess – has been exponential. If this is a general phenomenon for intelligent societies, then we are incredibly primitive in comparison to more than 99% of the civilizations we could detect." ------------------------ This idea is nothing new; it has been long thought that if an alien species were to be discovered, it would be too advanced to communicate. It also could be totally wrong, and we could be the "intelligent life" that we're so desperate to find. Either way, it's an interesting way of looking at Earth, and the possibility of extraterrestrial lifeforms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aman Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 I am interested in the life forms around the black smokers deep in the sea. One aspect of intelligence you did not consider is the speed of the nervous system. Our nerve impulses travel about 400ft/sec. Do these sulfer shrimp and crabs have faster or slower sensing and processing power. Would their biology ever evolve to our sentience in a properly stressful enviroment over time? Would they think faster or slower? Also our brains store memory and process logic. We have found so many ways in nature to store memory and build logic gates. Most of them inorganic. I think our understanding of these things will make it possible to comunicate with other life forms because we know how transistors work and we know many ways data can be stored which will help show us how they think. If they are a silicon based life form they should be able to be way faster and higher IQ'd than us. Or if its defective silicon maybe equal to us. Just for thought, a pool of silicon, on a planet with iron meteorites pounding its surface and an intense planetary magnetic field. Transistors might form and be magnetically attracted to build circuits and from there follow an evolutionary path. It might finally manipulate magnetic fields for locomotion Just for thought It will depend from which materials the lifeform evolves, as to what degree of intelligence it can attain. And one last question. What form of transmissions could we expect from a silicon based life form. Would they be modulated on the level of quartz crystal vibrations. Just aman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Edward Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 Originally posted by aman I am interested in the life forms around the black smokers deep in the sea. One aspect of intelligence you did not consider is the speed of the nervous system. Our nerve impulses travel about 400ft/sec. Do these sulfer shrimp and crabs have faster or slower sensing and processing power. Would their biology ever evolve to our sentience in a properly stressful enviroment over time? Would they think faster or slower? the actual speed of a signal along the nerves depends on amongst other things, the diameter of the axon, and whether or not the axon is myelinated. (ours are) It is extremely useful for some species to have extremely rapid nerve responses, usually as part of a reflex escape mechanism, such as in the squid giant axon (which is up to a millimetre across) in humans though it is not practical to have axons of this diameter, and also evolution (or design, I leave that up to other people) has come up with a better way of transmitting high velocity signals, namely by coating the axons with a myelin sheet (a type of fat) however there are limits again to the speed of the signal along the axon depending on the diameter of the myalinated axon, and the relative diameters of the myelin sheathe and the axon itself. now sentience is reliant mostly on the complexity and surface area of the brain (particularly the cortex), which in humans is very much folded up, and of the region of 5x the surface area of your whole head. this complexity effectively limits the speed at which a complex sentient brain such as ours can operate, granted you could improve it by increasing the diameters, and making the brain volume as a whole bigger, but it would have to be ALOT bigger to have any significant effect, and the practicalities of evolution would nullify this effect, so, while species such as some shrimp, squid etc may react and I guess, think, alot faster than us, their thought processes are vastly simpler, and even given a suitably stressful environment, it is unlikely that this extra speed would follow on in their path to sentience, as they would have to be absolutely huge if they were to achieve a level of sentience anywhere near our own. I don't recall the formulae at the moment unfortunately, but I guess I could try and work it out, calculating the increase in volume of the axon itself, and assuming that this would necessitate a brain size increased by the same multiplier. I hope I haven't been overly technical aah, I found a site stating that the diameter of the squid giant axon is about 100x that of a mammalian axon http://www.mbl.edu/publications/Loligo/squid/neuro1.html that would make the area of an axon about 2500x that of a mammal (pi*radius^2) which would mean at the very least the brain needed to operate at the speed of a giant squid's reflex response would need to be 2500x the size, not taking into account other issues such as the extra distance involved, and the coordination and sychronisation of the brain over such a large area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aman Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 It makes sense that biological sentience is a compromise of a lot of factors for the sake of efficiency. We seem for the time being to be at a point where the engine is finished but only two cylinders are firing. That might make us dumber than any other evolved sentience with the same but more finely tuned brain. Also a silicon based lifeform might be able to process near the speed of light. I know that doesn't mean it still can't be dumber than dirt, if you catch my drift. It means it might have the potential to be smarter. Fascinating stuff. Just aman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Edward Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 the whole idea of a silicon based life form is rather odd... it is not likely that it would be a solid computer like thing, although one cannot really speculate, since generally speaking, life requires an ability to be able to transport various substances around it's body, this requires solvents, and the most common solvent is water. now there are alot of carbon based molecules that will dissolve easily in water, but so far as I know, this is not the case for silicon. also when one considers the strength of the chemical bonds between carbon, there are far preferable to silicon, which would be far less stable. at any rate, a silicon based life form would still have to be cellular, as we are, since that would be the simplest form of life around, and have to evolve from that. there are also other chemical reasons why carbon based life forms are more likely. Granted it would be very unlike us - no crossing food/wind pipes, probably not bipedal, five fingers toes etc, it is possible that whatever passed for it's DNA would be radically different from ours, at the very least in it's chromosomal structure, however it would still suffer pretty much the same physical limitations as we do in terms of intellectual ability. the only advantage they may really have had is that they have been round longer, and with more advanced computer technology, have developed sentient machines and computers. now these have the ability to far outstrip organic life in terms of speed, efficiency and strength, and indeed I feel that this is the path that evolution will follow. of course this is entirely conjecture..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aman Posted July 27, 2002 Share Posted July 27, 2002 Maybe we ought to learn to converse with a tree. A no or yes would require maybe a season. Or at least a dolphin. Where are we with that? We've recorded a lot of squeeks Silicon may take a lot longer to communicate with but it also should be able to learn faster. It's a longshot possibility but the best bet is with more organic life forms. Do you think insects could attain sentience in a lower gravity enviroment? Just aman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocBill Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 "the actual speed of a signal along the nerves depends on amongst other things, the diameter of the axon, and whether or not the axon is myelinated. (ours are)" Well..most, but certainly not all. Axions that have their cell bodies and axon terminals within the brain (such as those for ofactory senses) are not mylenated. As a past SETI researcher, I think perhaps we might be 1/2 way between type III and single celled prototsts. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fafalone Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 Any race sufficiently advanced would almost not be communicating with radio waves... and any race that would be communicating with radio waves probably cannot trasmit them with enough power to reach us... but nonetheless, I always keep SETI@home running on my computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glider Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 Originally posted by DocBill "the actual speed of a signal along the nerves depends on amongst other things, the diameter of the axon, and whether or not the axon is myelinated. (ours are)" Well..most, but certainly not all. Axions that have their cell bodies and axon terminals within the brain (such as those for ofactory senses) are not mylenated.Bill C fibres are non-myelinated. These are peripheral fibres from polymodal receptors (free nerve endings) in the skin, and terminating in laminae I & II (distal portion of the substancia gelatinosa) of the dorsal horn in the spinal cord. Being non-myelinated, their condiction velocity is around 0.2 - 0.5 meters per second. They are associated with transduction of nociceptive stimuli (as are small diameter thinly myelinated, A:pdif: fibres). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Edward Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 Originally posted by fafalone Any race sufficiently advanced would almost not be communicating with radio waves... assuming there is something better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spuriousmonkey Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 maybe there is no more evolution necessary once you reach our level of 'intelligence'? How much intelligence do you really need to tie your shoelaces or shove your dinner into the microwave, or push a button? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Edward Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 yeap, mastery over the environment is all you need. once you have that you have everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skye Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 I agree with aman here, or at least I think that if we can't communicate with relatively similar organisms here on Earth than communicating with vastly different ones over light years of space is hopeful at best. It's interesting to think about though. What about life that has a high IQ, at least problem solving ability, but no notion of self? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Edward Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 Originally posted by Skye What about life that has a high IQ, at least problem solving ability, but no notion of self? computers? I think any species with genuine intelligence would have a notion of self. to not have a notion of self I think, would be highly disadvantageous in selective terms, when evolutionary forces come to play. furthermore, the application of the logic relating organisms here on earth here isn't really relevant in my opinion, since we are attempting to talk to creatures that do not appear to be sapient, or at least have no formal language structure. Intelligent species however, would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocBill Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 Originally posted by spuriousmonkey maybe there is no more evolution necessary once you reach our level of 'intelligence'? How much intelligence do you really need to tie your shoelaces or shove your dinner into the microwave, or push a button? Hmm. I have velcro fasteners and a cook. Where would that place me in the grand order? Not far along I am afraid! Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest White_Rice Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 I was always told we (humans) were on top of the intellegence scale on known species, so what grand order are you talking about?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 Originally posted by spuriousmonkey maybe there is no more evolution necessary once you reach our level of 'intelligence'? How much intelligence do you really need to tie your shoelaces or shove your dinner into the microwave, or push a button? To back up your statement, Discover magazine recently said that it is unlikely that our brains have much more room to evolve. The brain--the source of our intellect--is a powerhog, and requires delicate evolution to reach a point where the intellectual power justifies the excessive amount of energy the brain uses. With that said, our brain size may have reached a limit--the peak of efficiency; the best intellect to energy required ratio. I read that somewhere.... I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt_f13 Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 No way, as far as I have seen, the human race is collectively a pile of trash. Look at politicians... Some of the STUPIDEST people I have EVER encountered are Canadian politicians. And they rule the country. I am not discriminating agains Canadian politicians, the American, UK etc politicians are just as algae-like in their intelligence, but this is what I see every day. People cannot use simple logic that says "Killing people instead of putting effort towards fixing your own broke ass country is only gonna get you killed sooner." I'm speaking to the lowely terrorist here who happens to have millions of dollars at his proverbial disposal and wastes it on ammunition for a weapons he cannot even aim, let alone kill anything with (you've seen those videos). But hey, maybe thats CNN and I cannot see through their lies. Just another example of how "superior" we really are. If we cannot function as a working society, how can we ever dream of conquering the heavens (figure of speach). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 there is also the school of thought that says "why look for inteligent life out there, when we haven`t even found any here yet" (NOT my personal beleif, but quite funny from a certain veiw point) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudde Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 may not be your personal belief, but I believe myself that there are very, very, VERY few people in this world of whom I would consider actually intelligent. alty's right, why the heck would you put millions of dollars toward killing off everyone else when you're losing millions of your own people every day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 alt_f13 -- how do you really know that the human race is a "pile of trash"? After all, we have no other society to compar ours to. It may just be that our society is the most functional out of all of the "intelligent" life forms in the universe. Of course, we don't now, but isn't it a little pointless to accuse--or even praise--the human race when we have no idea where we actually stand in the universe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 I think he`s trying to say that going on our past history, we have been somewhat less than "enlightened" We certainly have a lot of room for Impovement too! (my opinion) I dunno... perhaps it`s all part of the evolutionary process though and quite necesary, Who Knows, so I agree with you too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMI Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 What do you mean politicians are stupid? Haven't you heard George W. Bush speak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aman Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 I watched Men In Black yesterday again and when Tommy Lee Jones tells Will Smith "A person is intelligent, people are stupid", I think he hits the nail on the head. Just aman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudde Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 heh yeah, I've always used that statement since seeing that movie;) I think people's ego gets in the way of common sense when they're trying to impress each other or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now