Child Behavior

[JustinW]

I have an 8 year old girl who is the oldest of 3 girls. A few years back, after visiting her granmother, she started getting into the habit of stealing junk food in the middle of the night. Her grandma started the idea that it was alright for her to have junk food when ever she wanted it, no matter what her mother and I wanted. I believe this may have started something that was easier to start than to stop. We've tried punishing her with grounding, writing sentences, reading text books and the like. None of that seems to work. No matter how well we hide the junk food she seems to find it. I wouldn't say that it is an all around stealing problem because she seems to only steal junk food. I've ruled out a hunger issue because of her appetite at the supper table and after school snacks. I figured for a while she might be getting hungry in the middle of the night. I would appreciate some feed back on the issue.

[Appolinaria]

low blood sugar?

[Phi for All]

Hiding the junk food makes it a game in your daughter's mind, a challenge to overcome. Plus she has discovered the joy of forbidden fruit (or in this case, Cheetos). Deny a human being something and they will obsess over it.

 

I prefer pointing out natural consequences rather than punishment. It's tough since she can't appreciate the health consequences at her age. Does she have an allowance that can be taken away to pay for unauthorized snacking?

 

I recommend rigging an electrical device, something around 100,000 volts (but very low amperage), so that every time she says it's OK for your daughter to have junk food against your wishes, your mother gets a jolt. This has been empirically tested and proven to adjust bad behavior.

[Appolinaria]

always blaming grandma.

 

before you punish your daughter, you should 100% make sure there is no health reason causing this.

[JustinW]

She is perfectly healthy. I have brought this up with her doctor. The stealing coupled in with the dishonesty seems like a bad habit on steroids. I have never gotten a latigitimate reason from her. Just "I was hungry." or "I don't know.". And the junk food really doesn't concern me with her being as healthy as she is. when she does steal it she only steals enough to get away with.(so she thinks) The health factor might become an issue for her later in life, but right now it's the act that scares me. I used to think it was a lack of concern for the consequences. I just hope she doesn't carry the habit into adulthood.

 

 

As for grandma, It's a shame the human body can't take more amps.

[Phi for All]

Ah, upping the amps on grandma! This tells me grandma is most likely "mother-in-law". Quick, scroll down so the wife doesn't see this paragraph!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Strictly as a father, my advice would be to stop denying your daughter access to the junk food. Hiding it perpetuates the game. Instead, tell her that authorized snacks, ones approved by you or her mother, are free, you're happy to pay for those. Snacks taken after hours need to be paid for by the taker. Don't subtract it from what you give her, make her hand you the money from her piggy bank so she feels the consequence. Don't have her buy them when you go to the store because then they'll seem like hers.

 

If you don't already give her an allowance, start that right away, since that's a great real-world teaching tool in itself. It's also one of the best ways to show natural consequences for bad actions.

 

Keep in mind that the real attraction may be the sneaky "getting-up-when-everyone-else-is-asleep" part. The junk food could be just a perk, which might be why your punishments haven't worked. Throwing you off the scent by making you think it's food related may be even more exciting.

[PhDwannabe]

Justin:

 

Quasi-mental health professional here who can't dispense that kind of advice over this medium for a bucket of ethical reasons, so we'll go ahead and say that this is for quasi-entertainment purposes only. I should also say that I'm not a child behavior specialist, but I can hit some basics. I've got a couple of questions for you: first, what's "middle of the night?" Is this bedtime or just-post-bedtime behavior, or are we actually talking about her getting up at, say, 3AM, devouring snacks, and returning to bed? Also, is this part of any kind of pattern of other impulsive or disruptive behavior? Attentional difficulties? Other problems at nighttime like bedwetting, excessive nightmares, separation anxiety? Is she unusually deceitful about things other than the snacks (keeping in mind that normal kids do fib with some regularity?) Developmentally normal otherwise? It's not as if any of these responses are going to go a long way in helping me crack some sort of elaborate puzzle here; to be honest, I'm mostly curious about them so I might be able to make a more informed recommendation about whether or not you might want to look into consulting with someone in person.

 

Not knowing any of these (though it'd be helpful to), I think I could generally encourage some kind of positive reinforcement schedule--it's simply more effective than punishment for things like this, especially when done with some immediacy--most kids are not terribly great at delaying gratification (think of how bad adults are at it, and realize that they're even much, much worse.) You have to catch positive behavior to reinforce, however. Suppose she goes a night without taking anything. You might note this in the morning. "You remember how mom and I have been asking you to not take food? Thanks for doing that. I put a special treat in your lunch today!" Doesn't have to be massive--better if it isn't, actually. We're talking Tootsie Roll territory. There are plenty of old-fashioned curmudgeons who moan about rewarding mediocrity, but I can give some assurance that it's not as problematic as some might think--the goal is not to provide some treat every damn day she behaves for the rest of her life. You "thin the reinforcement schedule"--perhaps stop doing that every day she doesn't take anything, and do so every other day, every few days, every week, until you're perhaps able to taper it entirely. These things can be surprisingly effective.

 

Additionally, and on a somewhat simpler note, might it not be a little easier to just not keep junk food in the house? Just sayin'.

 

And finally:

I recommend rigging an electrical device, something around 100,000 volts (but very low amperage), so that every time she says it's OK for your daughter to have junk food against your wishes, your mother gets a jolt. This has been empirically tested and proven to adjust bad behavior.

Well, that's just good science, folks.

[Appolinaria]

If she's taking small amounts as to go undetected, then it's probably not a power struggle. She obviously doesn't want you to know.

Majority of the time, I want snacks late at night all of the time too... ice cream, potato chips, etc... Who doesn't?

If she's healthy... who really cares in the grand scheme of things?

 

Let her live a little...

[JustinW]

wannabe,

 

The middle of the night is sometime after everyone goes to sleep. I have caught her in the "cookie jar" sometimes at 2 or 3 in the morning. Other than this behavior she is fine. A straight A student who never gets in trouble at school and otherwise acts just fine. I thought at first that it might be an attention problem having 2 younger sisters, and it might be to a small extent, but she doesn't show any other behaviors that indicate this. I do like the idea of possitive reinforcement. We have tried that to a small extent and I've always thought that if we were to do this steadily it might have a more possitive affect than punishment. And I'm also inclined to agree with Appolinaria since it is a small amount as to try to be undetected. I've asked myself before "why not?", it's not like she's gorging herself into diabetic shock. I was just concerned that the behavior might morph into something that could get her into trouble later on in life. Her overall character doesn't send up any red flags though, so I will start looking at it from a possitive point of view and give it some time, see what happens.

 

 

As for not keeping junk food in the house I would have one heck of a time. My wife is a stay at home mom who loves to cook and bake. Even though I say JUNK FOOD, it is not only. Just anything sweet or tasty.

[PhDwannabe]

Justin:

 

From what you've described, it does sound pretty mild and self-limiting to me. There is nothing what you say here that suggests that this would grow as a problem--really what concerns us are larger patterns of behavior across domains of life (e.g., impulsivity or misbehavior in school, at home, with friends.) Even really scary-sounding behavior (say, firestarting) are really often only suggestive of serious later problems within a larger context of behavior, and can just be relatively limited quirks when in isolation. Humans are complex, and we don't have neat formulae to predict how people will turn out given such a small bit of data--a pattern of some kind would definitely suggest something a little more worrying. If things ever did go that way, well, find a good child psychologist! For now, though, again, it sounds like a fairly isolated behavior of relatively minimal concern that shows no clear sign of getting bigger. As you say: try some positive reinforcement and give it some time. Good luck!

[Phi for All]

I do like the idea of possitive reinforcement. We have tried that to a small extent and I've always thought that if we were to do this steadily it might have a more possitive affect than punishment.

Again, I would recommend the allowance if she doesn't already have one. It's a great way to enforce the positive and dissuade the negative in a way that mirrors real life. As long as it isn't the only medium you use it should be effective for a girl who doesn't respond to groundings and writing sentences. As PhDwannabe said, just be careful to keep the reward small and manageable. These things have a way of escalating rapidly if they start out too big.

 

Going back over your OP, please don't punish her, for any reason, by making her read text books. If she's a straight A student, this method seems imprudent, ineffective and at odds with what you're really trying to do here. Reading and learning should never be associated with punitive measures.

 

Please take this as amateur advice from a fellow father only. If you're truly concerned with her behavior, or if it doesn't improve, take her to a professional who can start the process whereby you'll get a more substantive, meaningful analysis.

[PhDwannabe]

Going back over your OP, please don't punish her, for any reason, by making her read text books. If she's a straight A student, this method seems imprudent, ineffective and at odds with what you're really trying to do here. Reading and learning should never be associated with punitive measures.

Excellent point--I should've chimed in on this as well and will strongly echo it. In general, two good rules that are often broken are:

1) Don't use things you want them to do or might eventually want them to do as punishments (e.g., chores, reading)

2) Don't reward positive behaviors that they enjoy doing already.

[JustinW]

Ah, well spoken. Although the text books were way out of her league, I understand the implication and should have thought of that sooner. I will start her on an allowance. I believe it may encourage several different life skills. Thank you all for your insite, it has been a help.

[Moontanman]

I would like to add one thing, while not a professional I have raised two boys into really good young men (some of that has to reflect on me ) I would like to say, and this echos what some one else said, i think it's getting up in the night when everyone else is asleep that is really the point of her nightly forays. Getting up when everyone else is asleep is quite exciting for a child, gives them a sense of power or possibly even scares them a little bit but they know such fear is harmless since mom and dad are really just a shout away.

 

One of my boys would get up in the middle of the night at around that age and play with his toys, very quietly, or sometimes sneak a snack or turn on the TV but we lived in a small house and i am a light sleeper so i knew about his wanderings most of the time and I would always get up and take him back to bed although a few times he would get up and come into our room and he would wake me up to come and see something he had built with legos. It seemed to be mostly be waking up and being bored with laying in bed that motivated him.

 

Of course as teen he tried to sneak out of the house a few times and he found dad was difficult to sneak past but that was a short lived phenomena as well.

[Realitycheck]

+1 on positive reinforcement. -1 on sat. fatty sweets after midnight, lots of condensed energy with nowhere to go. Is that 2 or 3 or 4 or 5? Maybe something like showing her a picture of a plump frowning teenage girl (This is Elizabeth on sweets) and a picture of a smiling lean girl eating a fruit (This is Elizabeth on liver-absorbing fructose.) Actually, sounds kind of harsh, but maybe she just needs a little education.

It just so happens that recently, I started eating a wheat pbj sandwich every night before I go to bed. Not something I would normally think about doing especially at midnight, but I read something about how sugar can help some people become drowsy and I just had kind of a yearning for some pbj so I put in my routine, plus I'm 6'2 and lean, so it can't be that bad. A month later, I had gained 6 pounds. Of course, next month, I was already back to normal, so big deal, but maybe you got something out of it.